In a first, Indian tank brigades to defend China border

[Xeric]

Why does India want to ''counter'' some statistic? What inherent value does it have? The move it to bolster our defences in areas other than Pakistan facing areas, now true to national character you are spinning it to claim the usual - that the world revolves around pakistan LOL!!! This on a thread about Indian deployment on China front.

WOW! Obsession.

So that's the best counter-argument that you guys could muster since my last post, great! Sorry to say, but in our part of the world we call it 'off-topic' BS.

Anywaz, allow me to enlighten you all:

The Indian Army has five Commands, Northern Command at Udhampur near Jammu looks after Kashmir

- Western Command at Chandimandir looks after Punjab and Rajasthan with borderline at Bikaner

- Southern Command at Poona looks after Gujrat and Maharashtra

- Central Command at Lucknow has one Strike Corps including 31st Armoured Division meant for the western border

- ONLY Eastern Command at Calcutta looks after Counter-Insurgency in Assam and the NEFA border with China

- And thus Pakistan face your Northern, Western and Southern Commands

- Moreover, India has troops earmarked against Pakistan as Army Reserve (i dont know if you guys even understand the connotation of Army/Strategic Rererves) in both Central and Eastern Commands.

Now allow me you give you guys a little leasson on indian geography:

- Northern Command consists of three Corps, XV Corps at Srinagar comprising 19th Infantry Division (at Baramula) and 28th (Gurais). XIV Corps at Leh comprising 3rd Infantry Division (Leh) and 8th Mountain Division (Nimer). XVI Corps at Nagrota (Jammu) is a Corps plus with 5 Infantry Divisions, 10th (Akhnur), 25th (Rajauri), 26th (Jammu), 29th (Pathankot) and 39th (Yol). It also has three Independent Armoured Brigades, the 2nd, 3rd and 16th. There is an Artillery Brigade with each Corps. The 39th Infantry Division and the three Armoured Brigades are engaged in Counter-Insurgency duties and form the Command Reserve, the other Divisions are all deployed on the Line of Control (LOC). And thus are avaialble in case on any (mis)adventure against Pakistan.

- Western Command consists of three Corps, XI Corps at Jullunder, 7th Infantry Division (Ferozepur), 9th Infantry Division (Chandimandir) and 15th Infantry Division (Amritsar), 23rd Armoured Brigade and 55th Mechanised Brigade, the two Strike Corps being 2 Corps and X Corps at Ambala and Bhatinda respectively. 2 Corps has 1st Armoured Division, 14th RAPID Division, 22nd Infantry Division and 14th Independent Armoured Brigade while X Corps has the 18th and 24th RAPID Divisions, 16th Infantry Division and 6th Independent Armoured Brigade.

- Southern Command consists of XII Corps (Jodhpur) with 11th and 12th Infantry Divisions deployed at Ahmedabad and Jodhpur and the XXI Strike Corps (Bhopal) with 33rd Armoured, 36th RAPID and 54th Infantry Division. There are three Direct Reporting Units, 30th Artillery Division, which usually moves to Western Command. 50th Independent Parachute Brigade and 333rd Missile Groups (India’s nuclear artillery unit having Prithvi missiles) are meant to be deployed from Southern Command Area to Punjab and Rajasthan.

- In addition to the above , during the 2002 escalation some formations even moved from Eastern Command to face Pakistan i.e. 57 Mountain Division, 2nd Mountain Division and 27 Mountain Division.

So yes, your main worry remains Pakistan.

And gessler, what you have copy/pasted just shows your ignorance regarding the matter. Just because YOU say that something faces China doesnt make it 'face China'.

 

[Gessler]

So yes, your main worry remains Pakistan.

Worry about what of Pakistan??

 

[Xeric]

And with his gem of a post, gessler here just showed us the perils of googling without having the insight about the matter at hand

The Western CHQ has the 9th and 11th (in addition the 2nd Strike) corps based in Punjab. (f/ Pak)

The Northern CHQ has the 14th, 15th, and 16th corps based in Ladakh, Kashmir, and Jammu
respectively ( f/ Pak & China)

Northern Commad headquartered at Udampur makes it 'face China'...WTF?

You mad bro?

The Eastern CHQ holds the 3rd, 4th, and 33rd corps in Nagaland, Assam & across the Himalayas (f/ China)

Tu mainay kaya farsi boli hai? Estern Command is indeed responsible for your eastern problems, still you guys have the tendecny to move portion of it towards Pakistan as shown during 2001-2002 escalation.

The Central CHQ holds the 1st Strike corps as a reserve for support to E-CHQ or S-CHQ in Lucknow (f/ China)

Now that's funny.



A strike corps sitting in Lucknow is 'facing' China when the State of Nepal is between the indo-China border

BTW, FYKFI Strike Corps are kept 'away' from potential adversaries to keep them 'away' from an adversary's preemtive strike and thus killing the Corps even before it could mobilze.

This is known as common sense! Not....'facing China'!!

The Southern CHQ has the 21st Strike and 12th Corps are tasked for security ops in South India and
if needed are availble for further ops in Sri Lanka. (f/ any according to deployment)

A strike corps for operations in South India

It's like killing a bee with an artillery gun. My dear, strikes corps has much better tasks to undertake then culling insugency. And what? Sri Lanka? We though, Sri Lanka was your friend?

The South Western CHQ has the 1st (available from ECHQ) and the 10th corps in Punjab. (f/ Pakistan)

Yo!

It's basically childish to think a Corp is specified to fight a single enemy. Do you remember how we
rapidly shifted Southern Corps to the China border during 1971? Our corps are mobile, they are
restructured anytime to take up to any kind of threat. About the no. of corps you seem obssesed
with, wait and watch

Correct!

But your Corps are mobile, ever ones are, but they are NOT MECHANIZED (now hurry up google up the differences between being 'mobile' and 'mechanized')

So, as you guys still lack the capability of air lifting an entire corps to the designated point of application, it is logical to 'station' them towards their intended Area of Operations and thus their locations nearing Pakistan border. Again, that's common sense, only if oe uses it.

In the meantime, you can satisfy your countrymen by saying majority of India's forces are against
Pakistan only,,,it's just that Pakistan happens to be closer to those Corps than China.

Don't let that
get to your head bcoz I can see scores of Pakistanis perishing everyday with drone strikes, at
this rate,

Aaa...werent you the one accusing me of derailing the thread

I really don't think even 1 Corps will be needed to tackle Pak. Our nuke missiles are
enough.

Yes, 1 indian fauji is equal to 20 Pakistanis, yep, we know that, what next?

 

[Gessler]

Northern Commad headquartered at Udampur makes it 'face China'...WTF?

You mad bro?

I know exactly where the HQ is based, in fact I kept open Wiki page on another tab while I typed
that. But it's you who thinks that Corps (not the HQ) based in Ladakh, Kash & Jam won't
be ready to fight PLA if center calls them to.

Tu mainay kaya farsi boli hai? Estern Command is indeed responsible for your eastern problems, still you guys have the tendecny to move portion of it towards Pakistan as shown during 2001-2002 escalation.

And how exactly do you think the opposite is not possible ?

Corps are mobilized and sent to the front which has the need for them. They are never, repeat, never
supposed to be based at one point fighting one enemy only.

Now that's funny.



A strike corps sitting in Lucknow is 'facing' China when the State of Nepal is between the indo-China border

Lolz man, you've got the intelligence of a...well never mind. And you may prove yourself how
you assume that Corps travel or are relocated in a straight line?

A strike corps for operations in South India

It's like killing a bee with an artillery gun. My dear, strikes corps has much better tasks to undertake then culling insugency

Excellent research you have conducted The 21st Strike in based in Rajasthan, but comes under
S-CHQ. Only the 12th Corps are for ops in South India, in case of any emergency, but however these can also
be relocated to support any CHQ as per requirement.

Sri Lanka? We though, Sri Lanka was your friend?

LTTE wasn't. It's good they're gone for now. And again, these can also be turned to support any CHQ.

So, as you guys still lack the capability of air lifting an entire corps to the designated point of application, it is logical to 'station' them towards their intended Area of Operations and thus their locations nearing Pakistan border. Again, that's common sense, only if oe uses it.

And it's clear you're not using it, and besides, where did you read the part the we can't airlift corps to
relocate them? FYI, India has more operational transport ac than China, you may google if you want.

 

[Xeric]

@Xeric: I think its easy to contemplate why we have this structure. For our eastern border, we don't have to send the western ones. Instead we would include more for China front. War with China is far less probable than war with Pakistan. Replace War with Skirmish if War seems far-fetched.

You are correct.

And hence the assertion that most of your military deployment (including that of IAF) is against Pakistan. Now one can argue that this arrangement has been there by default and you guys are thinking of changing it, but belive me sending 2 odd armour brigades towards Chines border wont do it, and thus my reasoning in this thread.

Not unless some conceret and visible steps are undertaken (like shuting down your FOBs and respositioning atleast Corps size forces away from our border), we cant take anything on its face value and assume that you guys have gone China centric now.

Also, with the iduction of air-to-air refuelers, we have to assume that you plan on attacking us without activation of your FOBs in the back drop of Cold Start.

Reason is simple. Both China and India wants their economy to go at faster rate and don't want to create another enemy nation as both are dealing with other neighboring countries. Mutual trade is increasing every year and India is a huge market for Chinese products especially the cheap ones which has the market potential of over 650 million poor people. This is way important for Manufacturing dependent economy of China.

Again correct, but then why fingering the Chinies sending these brigade there?

Now if these were not meant to 'defend China border' as the news says, then i think my point that it's just a move to dampen the universal truth that most of the india forces are indeed poised against Pakistan is quite valid.

China wants to be prepared for any eventuality regarding SCS and USN. Japan, South Korea, Vietnam with US backing is far more potent than India alone. Even then they are improving infrastructure near India. Considering this, India should take this opportunity to increase its offensive power in East while keeping Western one more stronger than ever.

Correct!

But i dont think india can do it without reducing force projection towards its western side (Pakistan).

 

[Xeric]

And only if you could have understood the simple English langauge used here:

"So, as you guys still lack the capability of air lifting an entire corps to the designated point of application, it is logical to 'station' them towards their intended Area of Operations and thus their locations nearing Pakistan border."

Things could have been simpler.

And yes, you dont have the capability of 'air lifting' a strike corps with all its auxillary attachemnts.

Do you even know, it takes approx 20 trains just to move an Infantry Division (there are normally 3 x Inf Div in a Corp apart from the Armour, Air Defence, Engineer etc elements!!) that too if it's wheeled vehicles are moving by road? Read your damn Supply & Transport Field Manual!

India has more tranpsort aircrafts than China blah blah blah....WTF man?

So this would mean that all of these transport aircrafts would strat dumping an indian corps and leave out their other tasks.

Why the heck dont you convert 20 trains into your 'transport aircrafts' (figuratively) and see how much sorties would you guys require to transport a facking Division what to talk about the complete Corps and its armour elements!!

BTW, if you had known, Engineer elements like the bridgding equipment is MORE important to a strike Corps than its Armour elements during its operation, and this Engineer eqipment cannot be air lifted , espacially the specialized bridges and therefore they have to move by road.

Now even if we assume that the mighty india can air lift a compelet corps and thak, put it anywhere it wants, how would the engineer equipment reach at the point of application BEFORE the Strike Corps itself, as Engineer Equipment MUST be available BEFORE its intended users (the Corps in this case) reaches the point of application. Or else the air lifted Corps can sit there and scratch its balls while the Engineers move by road and reach them after lets say 24 hours, and thus my above point in bold that formations are (logically and common sense wise) stationed where they are intended to operate!!

Hence my assertion that most of the indian forces are poised against Pakistan and thus move of these brigades is just a drama!

 

[GR!FF!N]

only one request,please replace these BMP-II and buy/built some more advanced IFV/Light Tank.it is already obsolete and it lacks a good primary weapon.what is the status of Abhay IFV???

 

[DARKY]

I was just wondering, can India upgrade existing T-90 to T-90MS?
or T-90MS is completely new platform.

There are two Upgrades option.. one by Morozov Factory(Ukraine).

And other by Uralvagonzavod Factory(Russia)

Out of which Morozov Upgrades looks a lot more promising with makes the tank 52-53 tones... while Uralvagonzavod one makes it about 50 tons... All existing T-90S would be upgraded in the process.. the photo provided by Morozov factory is of an upgraded T-90S with Bustle, and new set of Knife ERA along with a 1400Hp power-pack... don't know much about Uralvagonzavod upgrade though... however both feature Active-protection including hard kill as a compulsory measure for Up-gradation.

 

[janon]

Hence my assertion that most of the indian forces are poised against Pakistan and thus move of these brigades is just a drama!

Of course most of our forces are poised against pakistan, and guess why? Because that is the only country we expect to have a full fledged war with. China is very unlikely to start a war for the border areas (both have a lot to lose, not the least of which is 75 billion dollars worth of annual trade that is growing every year.) Besides, those contentious border areas are not an important issue in most chinese or indian minds (despite the ruckus you see on this forum between indians and chinese.)

Kashmir is a different issue. Pakistan still nurtures hopes of getting it from India, and India has to defend its territory. An attempt was made as late as 1999, as you know. Whether to defend against another pakistani misadventure, or to initiate a war in future because of some terror strikes (it is unlikely that India will initiate), pakistan remains the only real military threat to India. Obviously most of our forces will be deployed to thwart pakistan. Why do you think India has 100,000 soldiers guarding Kashmir? Not to oppress the people there as some clueless people here think (the army does not do police work in India), but because that is the territory that is coveted by pakistan.

However, just because our focus remains pakistan (and will continue to do so until and unless all issues between us are resolved), doesn't mean that we consider pakistan to be on par with us militarily. Just being the centre of India's attention doesn't make you a worthy opponent. We have long passed the stage where there is a remote possibility that pakistan can get an inch of our land through force or guile. Our ambitions are now to be on par with China (we are a long way away), but that doesnt mean that we start orienting all our forces towards it. Our intention is not to threaten china or invade it, but to remain at par with it, while remaining vigilant against pakistan, which is the only probable threat.

 

[Xeric]

Of course most of our forces are poised against pakistan, and guess why? Because that is the only country we expect to have a full fledged war with. China is very unlikely to start a war for the border areas (both have a lot to lose, not the least of which is 75 billion dollars worth of annual trade that is growing every year.) Besides, those contentious border areas are not an important issue in most chinese or indian minds (despite the ruckus you see on this forum between indians and chinese.)

Kashmir is a different issue. Pakistan still nurtures hopes of getting it from India, and India has to defend its territory. An attempt was made as late as 1999, as you know. Whether to defend against another pakistani misadventure, or to initiate a war in future because of some terror strikes (it is unlikely that India will initiate), pakistan remains the only real military threat to India. Obviously most of our forces will be deployed to thwart pakistan. Why do you think India has 100,000 soldiers guarding Kashmir? Not to oppress the people there as some clueless people here think (the army does not do police work in India), but because that is the territory that is coveted by pakistan.

However, just because our focus remains pakistan (and will continue to do so until and unless all issues between us are resolved), doesn't mean that we consider pakistan to be on par with us militarily. Just being the centre of India's attention doesn't make you a worthy opponent. We have long passed the stage where there is a remote possibility that pakistan can get an inch of our land through force or guile. Our ambitions are now to be on par with China (we are a long way away), but that doesnt mean that we start orienting all our forces towards it. Our intention is not to threaten china or invade it, but to remain at par with it, while remaining vigilant against pakistan, which is the only probable threat.

Guud, now translate all of this in Hindi or Tamil whatever language these other friends of yours understand and post it again, may be something from one of their own can push some sense into them.

 

[Contrarian]

Xeric, force acquisitions and all are now taken with China in mind. It is separate from having existing forces change their orientation. The economy currently allows raising of more forces, so existing ones can stay in the area that they specialize in.

This shift towards China has only been possible because now Pakistan has been deemed militarily incapable to taking any territory from India. This was not the case earlier, so the forces were geared towards that. Now as the focus shifts, with time so will the military forces arrayed against China. They are already on the rise. It should give you atleast a hint of the change in thinking.

 

[jnd3x0]

India is just increasing its costs with such inappropriate move. imo

 

[Xeric]

Xeric, force acquisitions and all are now taken with China in mind. It is separate from having existing forces change their orientation. The economy currently allows raising of more forces, so existing ones can stay in the area that they specialize in.

This shift towards China has only been possible because now Pakistan has been deemed militarily incapable to taking any territory from India. This was not the case earlier, so the forces were geared towards that. Now as the focus shifts, with time so will the military forces arrayed against China. They are already on the rise. It should give you atleast a hint of the change in thinking.

Though i agree with what you have said, but then you ahev self-contradicted a few times in your post.

One one hand you say that as india can raise 'new' forces so the ones already against Pakistan should stay there but then you also say that as you guys consider Pakistan incapable to taking indian territory (as if Akhnud Bharat was our brain child) so the forces are no more required and can move up towards China.

Please make up your mind for once.

If india will increase force structure towards China by getting into new raising and without reducing the force projection on its western side, it will invariably mean that you guys are concerned with Pakistan.

But then if you consider Pakistan 'incapable' of a certain action that is a figment of an indian mind, then why dont you guys just shift the paraphernalia from the West to the North and leave us alone?

 

[KRAIT]

@Xeric
About taking things on face value is right. We can't assume it.

About fingering China,
I think China already set the wheel in motion when they invested billions in railways and roads in Tibet for fast deployment of troops and armored divisions near Indo-China border within few days/ I think India is being more reactive in this case. Stronger borders have become necessity of peace.

About shifting from Pakistan to China,
in case of war with China, we have to do it as China is way tougher to counter than Pakistan. If Pakistan tries to take advantage of it, other players will jump jump in case especially US. Nuclear threat can work in case of Pakistan not China. BUT, any confrontation resulting in intensive skirmish between India and China will destabilize the entire region along with massively affecting world economy.

 

[ajtr]

@Xeric
About taking things on face value is right. We can't assume it.

About fingering China,
I think China already set the wheel in motion when they invested billions in railways and roads in Tibet for fast deployment of troops and armored divisions near Indo-China border within few days/ I think India is being more reactive in this case. Stronger borders have become necessity of peace.

About shifting from Pakistan to China,
in case of war with China, we have to do it as China is way tougher to counter than Pakistan. If Pakistan tries to take advantage of it, other players will jump jump in case especially US. Nuclear threat can work in case of Pakistan not China. BUT, any confrontation resulting in intensive skirmish between India and China will destabilize the entire region along with massively affecting world economy.

No body will jump in.You have to fight you war on your own.Did you ever jump in anybody's war to help him that they will jump in your war in future to help you.You ask others not to assume but you start your own assumptions.