If we had $$, which fighter jets would PAF buy?

[Mav3rick]

What is this expert analysis based on? I see it being thrown around with abandon left and right. The blk III has not come off the assembly line, most here don't know much about Rafale yet such conclusive claims, how so?

I think it is based on the fact that performance of the predecessor of RAFALE, the Mirage series of Fighters, was more or less at-par (and in some cases even better) when compared to F-16's blocks of similar generation. Similarly, considering the experience of the French and the characteristics of RAFALE released and generally available all indicate a superior Fighter of 4.5+ gen.

We are also kind of hopeful about Block 3 of JFT but there is only so much that can be done with current Chinese tech.

 

[Nasr]

Plus which country would have refused to sell their jets to Pakistan despite of having the money?

If we had money to buy military hardware, then Pakistan would rather put that money into R&D of aircraft design, material sciences, establishing industries and bureaus that would be able design and manufacture fighter aircraft equal to or surpassing western and eastern tech. Buying fighter jets is equal to admitting that such a nation has no brain power to do things on their own. Engine design, development and manufacturing is equally important for Pakistan. Invest money into our children's education, standardize the quality and affordability of education and watch how Pakistan propels into the stratosphere of success.

 

[Darth Vader]

F22

 

[mudas777]

Why does everyone say jf17 is no match for Rafael?

Where are you all getting this. I just see a sweeping statement and gora worship slave mentality

Don't go on a personal attack and judging anyone without having any knowledge about them and you are in no such position. If you have got something to say contribute to the forum that's absolutely rude. Topic closed.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

If we had money more than fighter jets we would imvest in our economy to be more better than what we are. And if we had surplus after that like india has we would invest in F-35 if available, or turkish joint ventures of 5th gen fighter.

Possibly korean 5th gen would be 2nd choice after turkish. 3rd choice would be chinese

 

[Trango Towers]

Don't go on a personal attack and judging anyone without having any knowledge about them and you are in no such position. If you have got something to say contribute to the forum that's absolutely rude. Topic closed.

So pointing out facts is wrong.
Now you tell me is it not the norm...choice between buying an excellent Pakistani product and crap western one Pakistanis and our neighbours buy the crap simply to say we have it from abroad. Its sickening that this mentality is so prevalent even though we are supposedly free. If that's personal to you then I am very correct and certainly touched a nerve. Fix the problem. .

Those that say jf17 is crap in comparison to this should also provide proof instead of sweeping glass half empty statements.

Now the topic is closed

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Plus which country would have refused to sell their jets to Pakistan despite of having the money?

If we had the money, we shouldn't buy any other foreign jets (barring China) but instead would invest in Project AZM 5th generation fighter and make it ourselves.........

 

[blain2]

I think it is based on the fact that performance of the predecessor of RAFALE, the Mirage series of Fighters, was more or less at-par (and in some cases even better) when compared to F-16's blocks of similar generation. Similarly, considering the experience of the French and the characteristics of RAFALE released and generally available all indicate a superior Fighter of 4.5+ gen.

We are also kind of hopeful about Block 3 of JFT but there is only so much that can be done with current Chinese tech.

But people are mixing up things. M2K was/is a good platform in close-up combat. At stand-off ranges, it or Rafale have the same level of exposure as any other aircraft.

Which is why I made the earlier point, Chinese have made huge advances in radar technology and if Pakistan can pair their radar with a good weapon, the odds are evened out in an environment where there will be heavy ECM/Early warning at play on our side for our own assets.

The system as a whole has to work together and the JF-17 is just a cog in it. This is why this system's employment is all important rather than just the individual parts. If the cogs give PAF roughly the same capability as the adversary's very expensive imported platform, we are fine.

PAF has to burn more midnight oil on the evolving threats but PAF is in a much more balanced state currently than ever before (or perhaps similar to circa 1964).

 

[Quwa]

But people are mixing up things. M2K was/is a good platform in close-up combat. At stand-off ranges, it or Rafale have the same level of exposure as any other aircraft.

Which is why I made the earlier point, Chinese have made huge advances in radar technology and if Pakistan can pair their radar with a good weapon, the odds are evened out in an environment where there will be heavy ECM/Early warning at play on our side for our own assets.

The system as a whole has to work together and the JF-17 is just a cog in it. This is why this system's employment is all important rather than worrying about individual parts. If they give PAF roughly the same capability as the adversary's very expensive imported platform, we are fine.

PAF has to burn more midnight oil on the evolving threats but PAF is in a much more balanced state currently than ever before (or perhaps similar to circa 1964).

In the old days, buying a new fighter platform had mattered because it opened the door to new tech and capabilities. The F-104 brought a radar, the Mirage brought BVR and more payload, the F-16 brought a multimode radar, the Block 52 gave BVR at more than 70 km, data link and EW/ECM.

What folks forget is that with the JF-17, the PAF can freely add new capabilities domestically. And until we secure the F-16V upgrade, it's the Block 3 that's bringing an AESA radar and 120+ km BVR.

In a non-JF-17 world we'd probably be flying J-10As as our backbone, and we'd be waiting on the Chinese to release new tech for it and we'll likely endure with a variant that's a step behind. We'd need Chinese permission to modify or upgrade the planes too.

With the JF-17 we can speak to other subsystem suppliers. It gives us leverage too, and an incentive to the Chinese to work on good products for us (e.g. KLJ-7A improvements, export variants of new AAMs, etc).

 

[blain2]

In the old days, buying a new fighter platform had mattered because it opened the door to new tech and capabilities. The F-104 brought a radar, the Mirage brought BVR and more payload, the F-16 brought a multimode radar, the Block 52 gave BVR at more than 70 km, data link and EW/ECM.

What folks forget is that with the JF-17, the PAF can freely add new capabilities domestically. And until we secure the F-16V upgrade, it's the Block 3 that's bringing an AESA radar and 120+ km BVR.

In a non-JF-17 world we'd probably be flying J-10As as our backbone, and we'd be waiting on the Chinese to release new tech for it and we'll likely endure with a variant that's a step behind. We'd need Chinese permission to modify or upgrade the planes too.

With the JF-17 we can speak to other subsystem suppliers. It gives us leverage too, and an incentive to the Chinese to work on good products for us (e.g. KLJ-7A improvements, export variants of new AAMs, etc).

Well said! People need to have more faith in ourselves and our capabilities. Door-andaishi is the ticket for the PAF. Hope members get where we are trying to go and knee-jerk acquisition in response isn't the way to go about addressing the threats.

 

[Mig hunter]

Gentlemen this is one of the lame and shameful believe that we don't have $$ for defence purchases. Believe me when we feel that something is critical we straight away go for it if it is releasable. We must keep this thing in our mind that we are neither the aggressors nor hegemon. For our defence requirement we can buy anything

 

[Quwa]

Gentlemen this is one of the lame and shameful believe that we don't have $$ for defence purchases. Believe me when we feel that something is critical we straight away go for it if it is releasable. We must keep this thing in our mind that we are neither the aggressors nor hegemon. For our defence requirement we can buy anything

Not when we have an obvious balance of payment and foreign currency issue. Sure, we can make no spending compromise via local production, but we have a practical limit for imports.

In an ideal world, we'd try steering Fauji Industries and the like into export oriented corporations that can bring dollars in, that'd help on a lot of fronts (e.g. support bigger pensions, employ more ppl, and back arms procurements). It's a model that is working in Turkey, I hope it'd be natural next step for our analogous businesses.

 

[zn426]

Agreed. In the near-term, focus should be laid on acquiring longer-ranged SOWs and, in turn, equipping the JF-17 with them (including the Ra'ad/Ra'ad II and H2/H4). In the long-run, I suspect the PAF will look at using drones to carry deep strike roles, especially in high-risk environments.

What's interesting is that both the Russian Su-57 and Chinese J-20 were followed by stealthy attack drone programs. If the PAF is investing so much in a high-end FGFA, it can re-use a lot of the same technology (engine, composites, flight control system, electronics, etc) on an attack drone.

I think a reason why the PAF set the bar high with Project Azm is that it wants to create as much room as possible to do more with what it has. So, that's where the idea of an attack drone comes in, but also other possibilities. The current ASR for Project Azm is a twin engine fighter with supercruising. In theory, the PN can factor itself into the equation now and make a strong case for its own maritime fighter (heck, fund a carrierborne study if it wants).

Enduring through a drought is tough, but we do have asymmetrical options we can invest in lieu of new off-the-shelf fighters, e.g., an Iskander-like ballistic missile, longer ranged cruise missiles, upping the ASR specifications of future JF-17 blocks, and/or even add a HiMADS air defence element.

I would argue the best solution for the navy would be a stealth drone. Given India's money and ability to buy almost anything, forcing them to endure heavy losses while limiting our own financial exposure would be an excellent solution. It's like the Afghans shooting down $20M Soviet helicopters with $2k Stingers. The more damage that fleet endures the worse off they will be.

 

[Riz]

We will prefer to go for JF-17... JF-17 is our bomber, our 3rd, 4th, 5th generation fighter..
JF-17 Block 3 is better then rafales & F-16 Block72.. But we are so desperate to ink deal of block72s with USA
Samjh tay gay hoso..

 

[Quwa]

I would argue the best solution for the navy would be a stealth drone. Given India's money and ability to buy almost anything, forcing them to endure heavy losses while limiting our own financial exposure would be an excellent solution. It's like the Afghans shooting down $20M Soviet helicopters with $2k Stingers. The more damage that fleet endures the worse off they will be.

I think a large stealth drone program will run after the FGFA by reusing the same core technology. It's likely the vision for deep strike in the future.

But until then we'll have to endure with firing SOWs via Mirages. This is where the calls for remanufacturing the Mirages are critical.