If PAF had accepted the offer of A7 in the 80s

[Imran Khan]

if we buy these 110 duddu fighters today we were same shape as philpines air force

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Pakistani's were taken by surprise when US put F-16 on the table. They were no expecting this plane.

Rather the discussion was for A-7 and assembly of F-20/F-5E Tigershark.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Getting F16 was good decision at that time. It served us well. A7 was good but it was limited to subsonic speed.

 

[ejaz007]

Americans insisted on A-7. PAF rejected the same as it did not offer what Pakistan wanted in terms of technology and capabilities versus USSR fighters violating our airspace. Then F-16 came into picture and PAF gladly accepted the same.

The modified F-5 or F-20 came into picture a bit later. It was even flown to Pakistan and demonstrated. Since by that time PAF became in love with F-16 we did not accept it. Then an order for 71 F-16's was placed and rest is pretty much known.

 

[crankthatskunk]

F 16 is good, no doubt. It has served Pakistan well, no doubt. Everything about it is good.
But it is not F 15. That is the point.

F 16 is a sleek machine. While F 15 is a beast, which could have ripped IAF apart by now, if we had insisted the USA to have F 15.
If you keep looking for costs and running costs, you would go nowhere. 5th Generation fighters , bought or produced is not going to cost you pennies. It would be expensive.

 

[Khurram2349]

If I remember correctly then the issue of PAF getting 110 A-7 Corsair II came up in 1970s during the time when Jimmy Carter was U.S. President and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was PM of Pakistan . Bhutto was pursuing a deal of two Nuclear reprocessing plants from France with an eye on making a nuclear bomb , in reply to 1974 Indian nuclear blast while Carter Administration wanted Bhutto to give up this deal and not to pursue for having a nuclear bomb . Instead U.S. offered Pakistan F-5E Tiger II as well as A-7 Corsair II to boost Pakistan's conventional forces against India as U.S. knew PAFs interest in these planes to replace its aging but faithful F-86 Sabre . PAF was specially interested in getting a deep strike plane like A-7 to reach upto Indian nuclear power plants located in South India as during Vietnam War , A-7s had got reputation of being a potent deep strike aircraft .

As we all know that later French decided not to sell reprocessing plants to us and at the same time Carter Administration also dropped the idea of supplying us A-7s . Its another story that Pakistan got blessings from Allah to have Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan who told Bhutto that he can develop nuclear bomb without using reprocessing plant technology and Bhutto decided to give go ahead and free hand to Dr. Khan to make nuclear bomb.

In 1979 when Russia invaded Afghanistan then on insisting of General Zia who was then head of the state of Pakistan , Cater Administration offered US$ 500 million including F-5E Tiger II fighters and A-4 Skyhawks light strike aircraft . General Zia rejected this offer as peanuts . When Reagan became President of the U.S. he got convinced by General Zia of the dangers of the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan for the whole region and as a result Reagan Administration came up with US $ 3 Billion Defense Aid which included 40 F-16As . A-7 Corsair , however, did not come even then , as either PAF had lost interest and considered F-16s as better option for delivering a nuclear bomb which , thanks to the efforsts of Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan , was by that time was almost there !!!!

Just for the interest of the readers I am giving following link on this issue

https://quwa.org/2019/10/20/that-time-when-pakistan-sought-the-a-7-corsair-ii/

 

[SABRE]

For the benefit of the younger generation, 110 A7s were offered to Pakistan after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

Pakistan approached the U.S. for 110 used A-7 for $500 million in 1974. When the Soviets intervened in Afghanistan the U.S. offered F-5E Tiger II. As obvious, neither aircraft were acquired in the end.

The US opted not to sell Pakistan the A-7 due to the A-7's strong strike capabilities. Even through the 1980s and 1990s, few aircraft were as good as the A-7 in that role. So in the 1980s, the PAF would've wanted both the F-16 and A-7. You can imagine the sight of the 1990s plan, e.g., 110 A-7s and 110 F-16s.

The first line was not the case until Carter became president. Ford was willing to sell until Pakistan-France reprocessing agreement surfaced. Kissinger asked ZA Bhutto to give up on the plant & get the 110 A-7, which Bhutto refused. Carter became pres in Jan 1977 and in June he cancelled Pentagon's recommendation for the sale. Needless to say, Carter's foreign policy, much like Obama's, was based on good intentions. But those intentions were largely based around misplaced perceptions. If there are two presidents in the recent U.S.' history whose foreign policies failed miserably that's Carter & Obama. Obama got away with it, Carter got thrashed by Reagan. Carter believed A-7 would start an arms race in South Asia, ignoring the fact that India was acquiring latest Jaguars, thus arms race had already started.

I do not think PAF would have wanted A-7 in the 1980s. It is clear that Pakistan did not again push for A-7 during the Zia period, citing that the nature of the threat has changed.

 

[AbuzarIlyas]

We would never be able to build JF-17 in that case. Even Chinese weren't able to build their J-10s due to lack of input from us. It was one of the best decisions our military had taken at that time.

Now inshaAllah in a decade or less. We will be able to reduce the dependency of our defence imports as far as the matter of defence of airspace is concerned.

 

[SABRE]

If I remember correctly then the issue of PAF getting 110 A-7 Corsair II came up in 1970s during the time when Jimmy Carter was U.S. President and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was PM of Pakistan . Bhutto was pursuing a deal of two Nuclear reprocessing plants from France with an eye on making a nuclear bomb , in reply to 1974 Indian nuclear blast while Carter Administration wanted Bhutto to give up this deal and not to pursue for having a nuclear bomb . Instead U.S. offered Pakistan F-5E Tiger II as well as A-7 Corsair II to boost Pakistan's conventional forces against India as U.S. knew PAFs interest in these planes to replace its aging but faithful F-86 Sabre . PAF was specially interested in getting a deep strike plane like A-7 to reach upto Indian nuclear power plants located in South India as during Vietnam War , A-7s had got reputation of being a potent deep strike aircraft .

As we all know that later French decided not to sell reprocessing plants to us and at the same time Carter Administration also dropped the idea of supplying us A-7s . Its another story that Pakistan got blessings from Allah to have Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan who told Bhutto that he can develop nuclear bomb without using reprocessing plant technology and Bhutto decided to give go ahead and free hand to Dr. Khan to make nuclear bomb.

In 1979 when Russia invaded Afghanistan then on insisting of General Zia who was then head of the state of Pakistan , Cater Administration offered US$ 500 million including F-5E Tiger II fighters and A-4 Skyhawks light strike aircraft . General Zia rejected this offer as peanuts . When Reagan became President of the U.S. he got convinced by General Zia of the dangers of the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan for the whole region and as a result Reagan Administration came up with US $ 3 Billion Defense Aid which included 40 F-16As . A-7 Corsair , however, did not come even then , as either PAF had lost interest and considered F-16s as better option for delivering a nuclear bomb which , thanks to the efforsts of Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan , was by that time was almost there !!!!

Just for the interest of the readers I am giving following link on this issue

https://quwa.org/2019/10/20/that-time-when-pakistan-sought-the-a-7-corsair-ii/

Correct but there are few discrepancies. Let me summarise them in pointers instead of telling a long story

1. Ford/Kissinger had 'carrots & sticks' strategy of 110 A-7 for $500 million in exchange for Pak giving up the French reprocessing plant.

2. Carter only had sticks strategy. Virtually no aircraft to offer (except for relics), & threat to invoke Glenn Amendment if Pak did not give up on the French reprocessing plant. In the end, he did invoke Glenn-Symington Amendments.

3. A-4s were never officially offered but recommended to Carter by his team as carrots for Pakistan to give up on the reprocessing plant.

4. F-5E was on offer during Ford period (if I am not mistaken) & thereafter only when Soviet invasion of Agh began. Pakistan rejected it.

5. Carter offered $400 million when the Soviet invasion of Agh began. Pak rejected it.

6. F-16 was first offered by Carter but Zia decided to wait it out until Reagan came to power.

7. With F-16 the A-7 purchase made no sense (until we got slapped with the sanctions).

PAF wanted 110 A-7 and the Peacegate Agreements I, II, III & IV also added up to a total of 110 F-16. The difference is that PAF might have been able to get all 110 A-7 in one go. With F-16s we had to wait & clearly that nibbed us in the end. But overall I think we got the better aircraft.

 

[Raider 21]

i wish Pakistan insisted on the sale of F 15 at the time.
Americans needed Pakistan desperately to break up USSR.
Our people are never good negotiators. They gave up too early. F 15 is the real fighting machine.

F-15 at the time did not have a multirole capability. That was pure air superiority. What good would've been used F-15s if there was no sales for Sparrows at the time. Personally I love the Eagle, it is the best fighter jet in terms of combat kills.

 

[Raider 21]

For the benefit of the younger generation, 110 A7s were offered to Pakistan after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

I don't think it was offered, but it was asked by Pakistan from the US regarding A-7s. The Carter administration then against the deal, and rightfully did. Reagan admin eventually approved F-16A/B Block 15s as the F-16/79 export version wasn't doing well, nor did Pakistan express an interest when the A-10 was offered.

Correct but there are few discrepancies. Let me summarise them in pointers instead of telling a long story

1. Ford/Kissinger had 'carrots & sticks' strategy of 110 A-7 for $500 million in exchange for Pak giving up the French reprocessing plant.

2. Carter only had sticks strategy. Virtually no aircraft to offer (except for relics), & threat to invoke Glenn Amendment if Pak did not give up on the French reprocessing plant. In the end, he did invoke Glenn-Symington Amendments.

3. A-4s were never officially offered but recommended to Carter by his team as carrots for Pakistan to give up on the reprocessing plant.

4. F-5E was on offer during Ford period (if I am not mistaken) & thereafter only when Soviet invasion of Agh began. Pakistan rejected it.

5. Carter offered $400 million when the Soviet invasion of Agh began. Pak rejected it.

6. F-16 was first offered by Carter but Zia decided to wait it out until Reagan came to power.

7. With F-16 the A-7 purchase made no sense (until we got slapped with the sanctions).

PAF wanted 110 A-7 and the Peacegate Agreements I, II, III & IV also added up to a total of 110 F-16. The difference is that PAF might have been able to get all 110 A-7 in one go. With F-16s we had to wait & clearly that nibbed us in the end. But overall I think we got the better aircraft.

4. The F-20 was offered instead, evaluated as well but the program itself eventually got canceled.

6. F-16/79 was offered, a downgraded export version. Thankfully that deal did not go through.

 

[SABRE]

4. The F-20 was offered instead, evaluated as well but the program itself eventually got canceled.

6. F-16/79 was offered, a downgraded export version. Thankfully that deal did not go through.

Yes. Both F-16/79 and F-20 from the FX programme were offered. They were essentially a downgraded (degraded) F-16 and an upgraded F-5, respectively. F-20 was previously designated as F-5G. The reason for their development was Carter's 1977 presidential directive on arms exports, which forbade the aviation industry in the U.S. from selling aircraft that were qualitatively equal to the ones in the U.S. inventory. Essentially what the directive required from the industry was to ensure the following:

i. Less powerful engine
ii. Reduced range and payload
iii. Optimised for A2A capabilities but mostly degraded A2G capabilities
iv. The customer air forces should not be able to modify the aircraft without U.S.' approval or support.

When Reagan became president he realised that the U.S. had been losing arms market to Europe & USSR because of Carter's policies. He thus rolled back Carter's policies and allowed the sales of standard arms to the U.S. allies, including ones from Third World. This essentially killed the FX programmes i.e. F-20 program and F-16/79. Good thing Zia did not fall for Carter's offer of F-16/79.

 

[Tom_Cruise]

When the US offered F-20 didn't the PAF offer a 1 v 1 fly off against a PAF F-6 as proof it wasn't a major improvement or leap in capability? Needless to say the US backed down.

 

[HAIDER]

It was one of the most successful carrier based light strike fighter ..

 

[Raider 21]

Yes. Both F-16/79 and F-20 from the FX programme were offered. They were essentially a downgraded (degraded) F-16 and an upgraded F-5, respectively. F-20 was previously designated as F-5G. The reason for their development was Carter's 1977 presidential directive on arms exports, which forbade the aviation industry in the U.S. from selling aircraft that were qualitatively equal to the ones in the U.S. inventory. Essentially what the directive required from the industry was to ensure the following:

i. Less powerful engine
ii. Reduced range and payload
iii. Optimised for A2A capabilities but mostly degraded A2G capabilities
iv. The customer air forces should not be able to modify the aircraft without U.S.' approval or support.

When Reagan became president he realised that the U.S. had been losing arms market to Europe & USSR because of Carter's policies. He thus rolled back Carter's policies and allowed the sales of standard arms to the U.S. allies, including ones from Third World. This essentially killed the FX programmes i.e. F-20 program and F-16/79. Good thing Zia did not fall for Carter's offer of F-16/79.

It was not Zia, it was the PAF Air Chief at the time. The F-20 either way came Pakistan with a Grumman team, in the mid 80s. They were offering license production as well. Publicity went bad when 2 test pilots met their own fates while demonstrating their aircraft at air shows, led to cancellation after that. The F-20 was not a downgraded version, yet a standard one being offered to everyone.