IDEF'15 | 5-8 May 2015 | İSTANBUL-TÜRKİYE

[turkbordobereli]

 

[-SINAN-]

Thank you for the source.As everbody can see that it is not a reliable one and also there is no information on it.Just some words without any information or proof or source or anything.This is very serious accusation.and before telling that loudly everybody has to unveil their proofs about that.and some kind of website or tv news is not enough to proof anything.

However I would like share a rational comment about this issue from İlhan - Trmilitary .sorry for turkish

Denge sorunu kirpi'ye ait bir sorun değil. Malum, mrap türü araçlar hem çok ağır hem de ağırlık merkezi çok yüksek araçlar. Bir de 4x4 olduğu zaman araç normal kullanımda bile neredeyse limitlerde gidiyor, en ufak bir hatayı bile affetmeyebiliyor. Şimdiye kadar yaşanan kazaların ekserisi askerin ilk defa bu tür bir araç görüyor olmasından kaynaklıydı. Ne kullanıldığı bilinerek kullanıldıkça kazalar azaldı. 6x6 kirpi daha dengeli, doğal olarak araca silah gibi bazı eklemelerin de yapılabileceği bir tasarım oldu. Ancak tsk şimdilik kirpiyi "zırhlı cemse" gibi bir yere konumlandırmasından dolayı 6x6 aracın kabul göreceği bir kullanım aracı yok. Daha doğrusu o rolde cobra yeterince kaplama yaptığı için yer açılmıyor.

Ohh... i thought, you wanted some proof regarding 6x6 Kirpi's existence....

Balance of the Kirpis is a well known problem...we gave many marytrs because of rolling off the road. (Also soldiers are at fault because we heard that they are not wearing their seat belts)

And i want to expand İlhan's comment...

Because MRAP's have high protection levels, in example in Kirpi:

Balistic protection: Stanag 4569 Level 3
Explosive Blast Protection under the hull: Stanag 4569 Level 3b, they tend to be heavy....

And their center of gravity tends to be high, to reduce the effects the explosives, which blasts under the hull.

Some of the roll over incidents;
Kirpi devrildi 13 asker yaralı - Türkiye- ntvmsnbc.com
‘Kirpi’ devrildi: 3 asker yaralı
Hakkari’de askeri araç devrildi: 6 yaralı haberi | Son Dakika 3.Sayfa Haberleri | Haber, Haberler, Gazete Haberleri, Güncel Haberler, En Son Haberler

 

[xenon54 out]

Thank you for the source.As everbody can see that it is not a reliable one and also there is no information on it.Just some words without any information or proof or source or anything.This is very serious accusation.and before telling that loudly everybody has to unveil their proofs about that.and some kind of website or tv news is not enough to proof anything.

However I would like share a rational comment about this issue from İlhan - Trmilitary .sorry for turkish

Denge sorunu kirpi'ye ait bir sorun değil. Malum, mrap türü araçlar hem çok ağır hem de ağırlık merkezi çok yüksek araçlar. Bir de 4x4 olduğu zaman araç normal kullanımda bile neredeyse limitlerde gidiyor, en ufak bir hatayı bile affetmeyebiliyor. Şimdiye kadar yaşanan kazaların ekserisi askerin ilk defa bu tür bir araç görüyor olmasından kaynaklıydı. Ne kullanıldığı bilinerek kullanıldıkça kazalar azaldı. 6x6 kirpi daha dengeli, doğal olarak araca silah gibi bazı eklemelerin de yapılabileceği bir tasarım oldu. Ancak tsk şimdilik kirpiyi "zırhlı cemse" gibi bir yere konumlandırmasından dolayı 6x6 aracın kabul göreceği bir kullanım aracı yok. Daha doğrusu o rolde cobra yeterince kaplama yaptığı için yer açılmıyor.

We hear from time to time that another Kirpi rolled over, just a quick google search for ''Kirpi devrildi'' will give you an idea of the problem, the balance problem of Kirpi is known and nothing new so they obviously changed the design and added another wheel.
They wouldnt change the design if there was no problem no?

 

[TheConquerer]

Ohh... i thought, you wanted some proof regarding 6x6 Kirpi's existence....

Balance of the Kirpis is a well known problem...we gave many marytrs because of rolling off the road. (Also soldiers are at fault because we heard that they are not wearing their seat belts)

And i want to expand İlhan's comment...

Because MRAP's have high protection levels, in example in Kirpi:

Balistic protection: Stanag 4569 Level 3
Explosive Blast Protection under the hull: Stanag 4569 Level 3b, they tend to be heavy....

And their center of gravity tends to be high, to reduce the effects the explosion mines, IEDs under the hull.

Some of the roll over incidents;

We hear from time to time that another Kirpi rolled over, just a quick google search for ''Kirpi devrildi'' will give you an idea of the problem, the balance problem of Kirpi is known and nothing new so they obviously changed the design and added another wheel.
They wouldnt change the design if there was no problem no?

If you guys proofs are the links on your message and google search for "Kipri Devrildi" ,I have to say that we need more than that.everybody can give you many links belongs to cars,trucks,armed vehicles or other vehicles which crashed by rolling.that is not a proof of balance problem.there can be balance problem ,I am not trying to say that,but your claims are not enough to say there is an issue.so If you have a real explanation about this issue.Please share with us.

 

[-SINAN-]

If you guys proofs are the links on your message and google search for "Kipri Devrildi" ,I have to say that we need more than that.everybody can give you many links belongs to cars,trucks,armed vehicles or other vehicles which crashed by rolling.that is not a proof of balance problem.there can be balance problem ,I am not trying to say that,but your claims are not enough to say there is an issue.so If you have a real explanation about this issue.Please share with us.

What is kind of "real explanation" you want ? Can you describe it in more detail ?

 

[xenon54 out]

If you guys proofs are the links on your message and google search for "Kipri Devrildi" ,I have to say that we need more than that.everybody can give you many links belongs to cars,trucks,armed vehicles or other vehicles which crashed by rolling.that is not a proof of balance problem.there can be balance problem ,I am not trying to say that,but your claims are not enough to say there is an issue.so If you have a real explanation about this issue.Please share with us.

What explanation do you want? Center of Mass of Kirpi on 4x4 is too high which makes it roll over easier than with 6x6 where the two additional wheels make the center of mass lower and give more grip on the road.
Thats basic physics.... We shouldnt have to explain that...

 

[TheConquerer]

What is kind of "real explanation" you want ? Can you describe it in more detail ?

I was very clear and my question is so simple.if you claim there is a problem on 4x4 kirpi,your proofs are not enough to say that.if you keep saying that we need a real explanation.

What explanation do you want? Center of Mass of Kirpi on 4x4 is too high which makes it roll over easier than with 6x6 where the two additional wheels make the center of mass lower and give more grip on the road.
Thats basic physics.... We shouldnt have to explain that...

Is Kirpi 4x4 higher than normal.is it higher than equivalent 4x4.by the way do you know these technical specifications of kirpi or even you know them how you decide they are of sizes.I am not talking about 6x6 kirpi neither you.

 

[xenon54 out]

Is Kirpi 4x4 higher than normal.is it higher than equivalent 4x4.by the way do you know these technical specifications of kirpi or even you know them how you decide they are of sizes.I am not talking about 6x6 kirpi neither you.

The reason why Kirpi 6x6 exists is because of the balance problems of 4x4 in the first place.
Arkadasim senmi anlamak istemiyorsun yoksa benmi anlatamiyorum?

 

[-SINAN-]

was very clear and my question is so simple.if you claim there is a problem on 4x4 kirpi,your proofs are not enough to say that.if you keep saying that we need a real explanation.

Okay, bro.... i'm asking you to define the "real explanation" for me ? So, i can maybe find for you.

 

[TheConquerer]

The reason why Kirpi 6x6 exists is because of the balance problems of 4x4 in the first place.
Arkadasim senmi anlamak istemiyorsun yoksa benmi anlatamiyorum?

So according to you ,the 4x4 Kirpi which is shown on Idef 2015 was a faulty vehicle and BMC would not know that.Arkadaşım ben seni anlıyorum ancak söylemiş olduğun şey çok büyük bir iddia ve bunun doğruluğunu; anlaşılır,mantıklı,belli dayanakları olan gerçek bilgilerle ve kanıtları ile birlikte ortaya koyamıyorsan bunu dillendirmemelisin.bu dediklerimi yapmadan söylemiş olduğunuz şey ya yalan kapsamına girer yada iftira.

 

[xenon54 out]

So according to you ,the 4x4 Kirpi which is shown on Idef 2015 was a faulty vehicle and BMC would not know that.Arkadaşım ben seni anlıyorum ancak söylemiş olduğun şey çok büyük bir iddia ve bunun doğruluğunu; anlaşılır,mantıklı,belli dayanakları olan gerçek bilgilerle ve kanıtları ile birlikte ortaya koyamıyorsan bunu dillendirmemelisin.bu dediklerimi yapmadan söylemiş olduğunuz şey ya yalan kapsamına girer yada iftira.

Nasil bir kanit bekliyorsun bilmiyorum, yillardir bilinilen birseyi iki saatir anlatiyoruz burda, gerci sabaha kadar konussak gene nafile ama neyse.

 

[TheConquerer]

Okay, bro.... i'm asking you to define the "real explanation" for me ? So, i can maybe find for you.

Brother,real explanation means that what is the technical proofs of your claims.

 

[-SINAN-]

Brother,real explanation means that what is the technical proofs of your claims.

Mate, that kind of explanation can only come from BMC and/or TSK.....and don't expect any declarations from them on this issue any time soon.

 

[BordoEnes]

Ohh... i thought, you wanted some proof regarding 6x6 Kirpi's existence....

Balance of the Kirpis is a well known problem...we gave many marytrs because of rolling off the road. (Also soldiers are at fault because we heard that they are not wearing their seat belts)

And i want to expand İlhan's comment...

Because MRAP's have high protection levels, in example in Kirpi:

Balistic protection: Stanag 4569 Level 3
Explosive Blast Protection under the hull: Stanag 4569 Level 3b, they tend to be heavy....

And their center of gravity tends to be high, to reduce the effects the explosives, which blasts under the hull.

Some of the roll over incidents;
Kirpi devrildi 13 asker yaralı - Türkiye- ntvmsnbc.com
‘Kirpi’ devrildi: 3 asker yaralı
Hakkari’de askeri araç devrildi: 6 yaralı haberi | Son Dakika 3.Sayfa Haberleri | Haber, Haberler, Gazete Haberleri, Güncel Haberler, En Son Haberler

Much like others have speculated aswell, the BMC kirpi seems to be rushed to production due the financial reasons. This problem should have really been expected and avoided had they properly tested and evaluated the vehicle. Never really liked the Kirpi anyway since its based on the Israeli counterpart. I really think we should look to purchase some Otokar MRAPs. They really put effort and time in these platforms and have really matured throughout the years.

Otokar Kaya II MRAP/Troop carrier

Otokar Kale MRAP/Troop carrier

 

[TheConquerer]

Mate, that kind of explanation can only come from BMC and/or TSK.....and don't expect any declarations from them on this issue any time soon.

Bro, So there is nothing