IAF vice-chief prefers reverse engg to build defence systems

[gogbot]

The J-11B is superior to the Su-30MKI.

Reduction of radar cross section 5 times is a good start, from original 15 square m to 3 square m. Reduction of weight by 700 kg is another step in the right direction. There's also an onboard oxygen generator. The MKI is no match for the J-11B.

That radar reduction is without weapons.

You put weapons and pods on , any reduction made will become pointless given a reasonable radar.

the same reason why Putting weapons on the outer pylons for th F-35 kill its Stealth effectiveness.

 

[gogbot]

IAF vice chief is more concerned with getting in house weapons then anything else.

His only concern is to have access to range of in house inventory.

That our design labs have failed to make reality.

Having to choose a foreign option , like the MMRCA was from the get go a defeat to one of the crucial battles for the IAF indigenous efforts.
While Modernisation may be happening, it was not with as much Indigenous hardware as originally intended.

But the Vice-Chief , need to have outlook , reverse engineering will one strengthen the technology denial regime already imposed on India.
And the crucial gains made to remove it over the past few years will be lost.

 

[imran iqbal]

IMHO, VACM remarks are an alarming bell for Americans who are neglecting ToT to India.

On Introspecting, we are quite descent in air frame and hull manufacturing. What we need is strong electronic industry base which can be done by pumping more money into BEL and BHEL. At least 20 more R&D units needs to be set up. Manufacturing and development of semiconductors has to be in-house. These units can gain their revenue by supplying transistors, diodes and basic IC's/ASIC's to local industry like that used for communication equipment and house hold appliance.

India is lagging much behind in semiconductor and electronics than in any other field like IT, Pharmaceuticals etc . All modern battlefield scenarios and war outcome will depend on who has most developed and robust tech.

 

[black flame]

I thought according to many Indian guys in this forum, reverse engineering is stealing. So this guy should be arrested for advocating being a thief.

then what about u guys then what should we do with all of u then

 

[jbond197]

Off topic....can somebody tell me what exactly Vijay Mallya is doing in the convention?

Trying to Grab first reverse engineering order, it seems.. lol! or may VAC made the statement under the effect of Kingfisher Daaru..

 

[jbond197]

Even though it is not as funny as it seems, your post, i would say lets stick to the topic.

And the topic is War between India/Pakistan/China... Right? After few comments in the beginning of thread regarding Reverse engg, this thread is already high jacked by War-Mongers.

 

[below_freezing]

Why??

Have you followed them in 71 or 99?? Or they followed you in 62??

This all depends upon National Interest.

BTW You are so sure that Pakistan will follow China but Russia and Israel will be out of Radar??

Russia holds biannual military exercise with us and are part of one political grouping. India is not. In a real war, do you really think Russia would go to war for India?

Israel moving against China is like an egg smashing into a rock. Israel can beat down weak arab dictators with no industry or navy, that's about it. It is israel that needs China's silence at the UN on the palestinian issue, not China that needs israel or is scared of israel.

 

[below_freezing]

That radar reduction is without weapons.

You put weapons and pods on , any reduction made will become pointless given a reasonable radar.

the same reason why Putting weapons on the outer pylons for th F-35 kill its Stealth effectiveness.

true, but the weight reduction alone increases effectiveness. in addition it is an important step to reduce RCS because it lays the groundwork for new advances later on.

 

[NSG Commando]

The J-11B is superior to the Su-30MKI.

Reduction of radar cross section 5 times is a good start, from original 15 square m to 3 square m. Reduction of weight by 700 kg is another step in the right direction. There's also an onboard oxygen generator. The MKI is no match for the J-11B.

Copying a sukhoi 27 dosent make it superior to Sukhoi 30 mki. Just understand that....

 

[intelarpit]

Russia holds biannual military exercise with us and are part of one political grouping. India is not. In a real war, do you really think Russia would go to war for India?

Israel moving against China is like an egg smashing into a rock. Israel can beat down weak arab dictators with no industry or navy, that's about it. It is israel that needs China's silence at the UN on the palestinian issue, not China that needs israel or is scared of israel.

You have wonderful relations with Pakistan....But have you supported them??

Moreover the point is if Pakistan joins the war.....we know 71 when Russia sent her nuclear submarine and as per many Pakistanis....Israel helped us in kargil

Point to be noted is that If Pakistan Joins the War

Its good that you trust your friend but underestimating others friendship will......

 

[su-47]

if we deploy everything against the IAF, they will go down very fast. their SAMs will have to respond to thousands of cruise missiles (both real, and converted J-6 drones) as well as 500 Q-5, 200 JH-7 bombers, and their aircraft would be fighting with 700 J-7, 300 J-8, 200 J-10, 200 J-11 and Su-30. Both our numeric and technological superiority in the air and in missiles is unmatched by india.

However that's useless since our main battlefield is east asia.

dude, please don't say anything if u dont have the remotest idea of what you are talking about.

AWAC supported 3rd gen aircraft can't compete with 4.5 gen aircraft. If that was the case, then WHY does the world, including china, invest in 4th gen and 5th gen aircraft? It would be much cheaper to build 1000s of 3rd gen BVR capable aircraft and use 100s of AWACS to support them.

3rd gen aircraft are limited by their airframe. AWAC support won't make them effectively able to compete with 4th gen and 4.5 gen aircraft. Look at any military analysis. They wont count 3rd gen or early 4th gen aircraft as a real threat.

By your logic, India also has a large fleet. We have hundreds of old MiG-21s, MiG-23s and retired MiG-25s, If we retrofit them to be BVR capable and provide AWACS support, do u think they will be able to take on your Su-30s, J-11s and J-10s?

Air war is much more complicated than we understand. It is not a simple case of fire BVR missile and then leave. There are countermeasures and counter-countermeasures and counter-counter-countermeasures, all of which creates a lot of complexity. There is a lot of emphasis on subsystems and avionics. The airframe of the combat aircrafts also play a major part.

Look, I am not trying to prove that IAF is superior to PLAAF. PLAAF has a lot more 4th gen and 4.5 gen aircraft. IAF has a lot of good aircraft, but we are lagging behind (hence MRCA deal). I can't comment on the subsystems or avionics of the aircraft of either air forces, because my knowledge on that topic is insufficient, and i am not going to make assumptions on which country has superior tech. But according to me, currently PLAAF is superior to IAF, mainly coz quantity does have a quality of its own.

This is a discussion that can fill several pages. this thread is not the place for it. If you want to discuss it further, please open another thread, or PM me. But lets not continue this here.

 

[su-47]

As for the IAF vice chief's remarks, here are my views:

R&D and reverse engineering are both different ways to the same end, each with its own advantages and disadvantages. R&D expands industrial base and gives a lot of experience and in-house knowledge that reverse engineering won't give, but it is much more cost- and time-intensive.

When it comes to national defence, anything goes, whether it is R&D or reverse-engineering. No need to feel any shame for that. Every major nation has undertaken espionage, reverse-engineering and downright stealing to protect its interests. From the Romans reverse-engineering a Carthaginian trireme to rule the Mediterranean to the US and USSR reverse engineering German V2s and using German scientists to further their Ballistic Missile programs.

In India's case, we have mainly relied on R&D and on ToT. While this approach is very good in gaining knowledge at a basic level and furthering domestic defence industry, it does have its limitations. R&D is often slow and costly, and even with ToT, not all technologies are available.

So we have to broaden our spectrum and gain some additional tech, and speed up our R&D by engaging in reverse engineering when possible. Yes, it might be unethical to some, but to me, I find it unethical if we don't do everything within our means to ensure our people's safety.

But our reverse-engineering program should be discreet, not an open secret. It should enhance our understanding and access to new tech, not hamper it by making other nations reluctant to supply us with advanced tech.

So the IAF VCs views are correct as far as I am concerned, but eh should have just kept quiet about it, instead of blabbing it for the whole world to hear.

 

[below_freezing]

just remember, reverse engineering IS learning the technology. if you take apart a TV, make a blueprint from it, and use it to manufacture new TVs, do you really think you'd still have no idea what a TV does and the basic principles behind that TV?

using a TV as a model, actually taking apart the TV and drawing the blueprints, that is the EASY step. the hard step is making your own TV from those blueprints, this is where your industrial base steps in. Without the proper semiconductor foundries, factories for making cathode tubes, wires, transistors, etc. how can you make a TV even if you have the blueprints? you can't. so you need industry capable of making those parts. if you can't? Then you can either give up, or try to find substitutes your industry is capable of making.

This is why reverse engineering IS learning. in fact, it is MORE learning than ToT, which is akin to a teacher holding your hand as you draw a picture rather than copying a picture by yourself.

 

[Pride]

just remember, reverse engineering IS learning the technology. if you take apart a TV, make a blueprint from it, and use it to manufacture new TVs, do you really think you'd still have no idea what a TV does and the basic principles behind that TV?

using a TV as a model, actually taking apart the TV and drawing the blueprints, that is the EASY step. the hard step is making your own TV from those blueprints, this is where your industrial base steps in. Without the proper semiconductor foundries, factories for making cathode tubes, wires, transistors, etc. how can you make a TV even if you have the blueprints? you can't. so you need industry capable of making those parts. if you can't? Then you can either give up, or try to find substitutes your industry is capable of making.

This is why reverse engineering IS learning. in fact, it is MORE learning than ToT, which is akin to a teacher holding your hand as you draw a picture rather than copying a picture by yourself.

Yes Sir.. We understand Reverse Engineering is a learning and not any dumb person can regenerate things but without consent of owner learning and then producing the same object falls under "Intelligent but illegal" copying... and which violates copyright law i dont support..

 

[below_freezing]

don't indian pharmaceutical companies do the same thing?

i think when it comes to matters of LIFE and DEATH like pharmaceuticals and military, any method that gets the job done is correct, and there is no illegal or legal.