IAF losing edge over PAF:Military Intelligence.

[blain2]

"The ALQ-211 is being integrated into international F-16 fighters for Chile, Poland and Oman. The 211 is also applicable for pod-mounted applications and unmanned aerial vehicles."
ITT Integrated Electronic Warfare Systems - EW Solutions

can you provide source for Pakistani F16s

Pakistan - AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS Pods - ASDNews

http://www.f-16.net/news_article2789.html The ones PAF actually bought are 211 (V9) and not V4.

You can search DSCA site as well for this release.

 

[blain2]

That was typhoon even the RAF pilots candidly admitted that the Su-30MKI displayed maneuvering superior to that of the Typhoon during the 2007 indra-dhanush exercise and the IAF did not allow their pilots to use the radar of the MKIs during the exercise so as to protect the highly-classified N011M Bars

Post one article where it states that MKIs and Typhoons flew together in DACT. There has been a huge snowball effect on this amongst the Indians. RAF and MoD made sure that Typhoon and MKI did not fly against each other in DACT sorties during Indradhanush, period!

The RAF pilots admitted that MKI performed well, as expected, against the Tornado. That is all that the RAF gave away.

 

[lepziboy]

Post one article where it states that MKIs and Typhoons flew together in DACT. There has been a huge snowball effect on this amongst the Indians. RAF and MoD made sure that Typhoon and MKI did not fly against each other in DACT sorties during Indradhanush, period!

The RAF pilots admitted that MKI performed well, as expected, against the Tornado. That is all that the RAF gave away.

Typhoon vs. SU-30MKI: The 2007 Indra Dhanush Exercise

 

[blain2]

But I do agree that MKI is not invincible but in terms of performance its still the best in south asian skies.

And I have a question which is better F-15 eagle or F-16?just asking I know its off topic

Performance in what sense? If it has TVC, it also has to contend with huge size and earlier detection as well as greater logistical challenges and more limited MTBO/MTBF characteristics compared to simpler, non-TVC engines. It has a huge radar, but the F-16 has a much smaller RCS and very effective jamming capabilities. In my view, the F-16 is a better integrated MR platform. MKI is better for long range strike due to fuel and ordnance capacity, so there are pluses and minuses here that need to be considered. The MKI is considered by many who fly the Sukhoi as the most potent Su-30 because it has some western components which supposedly are considered better than the Russian alternates. The F-16s on the whole are a better put together package in my opinion.

In terms of the F-15 vs. F-16 debate, again, F-16 is more nimble in close in combat, whereas F-15 carries a greater payload over a longer range. Pros and cons on both ends, but it depends on how you intend to use it.

 

[blain2]

Typhoon vs. SU-30MKI: The 2007 Indra Dhanush Exercise

Is the following all you have with regards to believing that Typhoon and MKI flew against each other in DACT:

“The operational part of the ‘Exercise Indradhanush-2007’ began with a series of 1 vs 1 air combat sorties… The RAF pilots were candid in their admission of the Su-30 MKI’s observed superior maneuvering in the air, just as they had studied, prepared and anticipated. [emphasis DID’s] The IAF pilots on their part were also visibly impressed by the Typhoon’s agility in the air.

While it does not imply to say that the 1 vs 1 air combat sorties were meant for backslapping each other, it may be understood that in today’s aerial combat scenarios of ‘beyond visual range’ (BVR) capabilities of air platforms, it is highly unlikely that any of the modern-day fighters will ever get into a situation that warrants extreme close air combat, as in the situation simulated in the 1 vs 1 sorties. With a ‘kill’ criterion of front-gun ranges being mostly under 1000 meters and a visual tracking envelope behind the target for only up to a 60-degree cone mostly for most fighter aircraft of the world, the unlikely scenario gets more exemplified.

But the irony also lies in the fact that while there is a number of counter and counter-counter measures to make the modern missiles with claims of inescapable parameters redundant by using ‘chaff’ and other active/passive measures, a ‘gun kill’ is invariably a most certain kill. The pilots invariably begin honing their tracking and combat skills under such close combat situations.”

The above is simply word play. No less than an Air Marshall of the RAF is on record stating Typhoon and the MKI did not fly against each other. I will post the reference shortly. I think nobody has looked at the comments closely. The IAF saw the Typhoon fly, but just as observers. The Typhoon showed up for a Photo op. and no back seat rides were allowed for either side in the Typhoon or the MKI. Nothing in the article states that the two types flew against each other. The Indian MoD's comments are very general in nature.

This may come as news to many Indians here, but the facts are as above and reference from an RAF resource will be forthcoming shortly.

 

[lepziboy]

Performance in what sense? If it has TVC, it also has to contend with huge size and earlier detection as well as greater logistical challenges and more limited MTBO/MTBF characteristics compared to simpler, non-TVC engines. It has a huge radar, but the F-16 has a much smaller RCS and very effective jamming capabilities. In my view, the F-16 is a better integrated MR platform. MKI is better for long range strike due to fuel and ordnance capacity, so there are pluses and minuses here that need to be considered. The MKI is considered by many who fly the Sukhoi as the most potent Su-30 because it has some western components which supposedly are considered better than the Russian alternates. The F-16s on the whole are a better put together package in my opinion.

In terms of the F-15 vs. F-16 debate, again, F-16 is more nimble in close in combat, whereas F-15 carries a greater payload over a longer range. Pros and cons on both ends, but it depends on how you intend to use it.

I agree on the RCS part MKI really has a big RCS.performance by that I mean is manueverability and agility.In sense of radar I kinda agree F-16 may have better electronics.But we cant really tell it right now because we havent seen them face to face

thanks for the info.But in terms of appearance I like the F-15 hehehe

 

[blackops]

Post one article where it states that MKIs and Typhoons flew together in DACT. There has been a huge snowball effect on this amongst the Indians. RAF and MoD made sure that Typhoon and MKI did not fly against each other in DACT sorties during Indradhanush, period!

The RAF pilots admitted that MKI performed well, as expected, against the Tornado. That is all that the RAF gave away.

In July 2007, the Indian Air Force fielded the MKI during the Indra-Dhanush exercise with Royal Air Force's Eurofighter Typhoon. This was the first time that the two jets had taken part in such a exercise.[49][50] The IAF did not allow their pilots to use the radar of the MKIs during the exercise so as to protect the highly-classified N011M Bars.[51] During the exercise, the RAF pilots candidly admitted that the Su-30MKI displayed maneuvering superior to that of the Typhoon.[52]
some times wiki help mr mod

 

[blain2]

Downed with what? guns? heat seekers?

Guns possibly. The context was close in dog fighting. The Italian Air Force has also flown their F-16As against their Typhoons and feel that under certain altitudes, the older block F-16s turn as well as the Typhoon.

 

[blain2]

In July 2007, the Indian Air Force fielded the MKI during the Indra-Dhanush exercise with Royal Air Force's Eurofighter Typhoon. This was the first time that the two jets had taken part in such a exercise.[49][50] The IAF did not allow their pilots to use the radar of the MKIs during the exercise so as to protect the highly-classified N011M Bars.[51] During the exercise, the RAF pilots candidly admitted that the Su-30MKI displayed maneuvering superior to that of the Typhoon.[52]
some times wiki help mr mod

My friend, don't insult my intelligence by posting wiki links here. All of the above articles that you are pasting are second hand, regurgitated articles that have come out of inaccurate initial reports that were misconstrued (close in combat with RAF Tornados was misinterpreted to mean against the Typhoons as well), when this was not the case.

IAF flew MKIs in close in and BVR combat against joint packages of Red MKIs/Tornados against blue MKIs/Tornados. The Typhoon was nowhere in this mix. BVR shots were taken by pairing the long range AI radar of the Tornado (because the Bars was not switched on the by IAF) with simulated R-77 shots by the MKI. Close in combat was undertaken by both types and obviously Tornado lost to the MKi which is well documented. This is essentially the truth and the whole truth of the situation gents!

 

[blackops]

My friend, don't insult my intelligence by posting wiki links here. All of the above articles that you are pasting are second hand, regurgitated articles that have come out of inaccurate initial reports that were misconstrued (close in combat with RAF Tornados was misinterpreted to mean against the Typhoons as well), when this was not the case.

IAF flew MKIs in close in and BVR combat against joint packages of Red MKIs/Tornados against blue MKIs/Tornados. The Typhoon was nowhere in this mix. BVR shots were taken by pairing the long range AI radar of the Tornado (because the Bars was not switched on the by IAF) with simulated R-77 shots by the MKI. Close in combat was undertaken by both types and obviously Tornado lost to the MKi which is well documented. This is essentially the truth and the whole truth of the situation gents!

well its up to you if someone has made his mind that tornado and mki wernt against each other then there is nothing that we can do about it either you are right or all of these articles

 

[lepziboy]

its so hard to know the truth these days

 

[blain2]

IAF had been keenly looking forward to this deployment, both from a cultural and a work ethos perspective. It had hoped its Su-30MKI would get the chance to go head to head with the Typhoon, but as far as the RAF was concerned that was a no-no. It was not surprising. At the Indradhanush I press conference at Gwalior AFS, both senior representatives - AVM Chris Harper, CAS RAF Strike Operations, and his Indian counterpart, AM K D Singh - were diplomatic about each other's performances. However, Indian journalist were given separate briefings by IAF personnel which suggested the Tornado F.3 has, not too surprisingly, struggled to cope with the Su-30MKI in air battles. This led to headlines such as "Indian Sukhois splash the RAF in War games" appearing in the national newspapers. The RAF and BAE systems did not want to see a repeat involving Typhoon once the IAF returned home (after Indrdhanush II), so they tried their best to ensure there were no Typhoon vs. Su-30 MKI dogfight scenarios.
.....However, there is every possibility that if the warm relations between the RAF and the IAF continue, Indradhanush III will take place in India in 2009. Should the Typhoon win the contract to supply the IAF with up to 126 MMRCA, don't bet against it flying to India for that one!

IAF were hosted by XXV sqn RAF which flies Tornados. In addition, 2 41 (R) swn Tornado F.3s, 100 sqn hawks, 41 sqn Harriers, 1 sqn Sentry AEW.1s took part in the ex. along with 101's VC-10 tankers.

Source - The Deadly Charmers - Air Forces Monthly

The Typhoons only showed up one day for the photo op and flew in formation with the participants.

 

[Silk]

Sofar the superiority...

 

[Storm Force]

15 Years ago IAF had 39.5 sqds or around 740 combat planes

From these nearly 500 where MIG21 & MIG23/MIG27 fighters (in other words obselete even in 1996)

TODAY IAF has fallen to around 32-33 sqds and we hear great noise of shrinking IAF VERSIS PAF capability.

BUT THIS IS NOT SO SIMPLE.

The lost sqds are IAF obselete fighters NOT ITS front line fighters of the 4th generation.

yes the IAF have scrapped all MIG23 & all but 120 mig21 bisons BUT look wat has arrived in its place.

ITS A SMALLER FORCE but with 4 times the PUNCH of 39SQDS...

su30mki is not invincible but it was designed to take on and defeat F16 & F15 LEGACY FIGHTERS.

PAF was in dire straits during KARGIL not a single BVR capable plane TODAY they have over 80 and AWACS to boot.

BUT in pure modern fighters IAF out numbers PAF by 3-1 ie around 250 su30mki.mig29/smt/k mirage2000 versis 80 f16/jf17.

I DON,T THINK THE INDIANS ARE THAT UNPREPARED as they are shouting to their govt/ministry of defense.

 

[Storm Force]

Blain.

I agree with your comment/asessement re F16 & SU30MKI being not to far apart in overall capability.

BUT the big advantage is the huge numerical advantage of 250+ su30mki versis 70+ F16 BLOC52/MLU.

THE OTHER ADVANTAGE is the shear nos of missles ie 8-12 on su30mki versis 4-6 on f16