How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Hobo1]

Wise men would have learned a long time ago not to deal with US as the US is as untrustworthy as a supplier as it is as a partner or friend. If only my countrymen had learned that before they invested so heavily in new F-16's with all those conditions. They should have, instead, invested in Jets that came without strings and with guaranteed continuity of supplies and arms in case of war.

Invested in Jets ???

When has Pakistan bought weapons with its own money. Since 50s Pakistanis have been buying weapons on American aid money.
And do you think American would let you buy weapons using their money from another nation.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Anti radiation A2A will only be in terminal phase, you need a active guidance for most of the flight. Actually ramjet version of BVRS will obviously bring the long range shots quite often with enhanced no escape zone.

do you got any reads/links related to antiradiation/hoj shots...??what i have heard is it is passive and rwr cant detect it.

 

[Storm Force]

So According to SOME PDF posters

RCS pretty much ensures that MKI is going to get locked on WELL BEFORE any JFT OR F16 and shot down before it gets in range to launch its arsenal of upto 12 BVRS/WVRS...

damn these INDIANS nust be so stupid they have JUST ORDERED their 4th batch of SU30MKI from russia LAST WEEK.

dont these stupid indians realise that a lightweight fighter costinmg 1/4 the price of the MKI will kick its *** in PAF

why have they ordered more ???????????

COULD IT BE something to do with

F16/52 (SINGPORE IR FORCE) V SU30MKI CONSTANT DACT battles in india have shown mki kicking the backside of the mighty F16/52 on a regular basis

or

THE 1 v 1 battles with TYPHOON in RAF and the su30mki performanmce against french mirage2000-5 in the last 24 months.

SOME OF pdf MEMBERS STATING rcs will decide who sees first HAVE ZERO IDEA about the advanced israeli jammers and shear size and processing power of a highly advanced BARS PESA radar over the BEST RADARS in PAF fighters.

THE MKI is the air supremacy fighter in south asia ON PAPER by miles

THIS IS WHY THE INDIANS who have access to virtually any fighter on the planet be it USA or EUROPE chose mki abiove the REST AND continue to order more.

IAF has no sanctions issues & no money worries LIKE PAF .

that tells all about their confidence in this beast

Read the article below tells you MKI programme todate and the names of currently 8 sqds of mki and their locations

India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs

 

[trident2010]

Apart from MKI's own very powerful radars, Phalcons will pinpoint enemy's position without even leaving the Indian airspace. It will also augment with radars along the borders. Then its upto Indian armed forces how they want to proceed, weather neutralise ground based enemy radars/SAM's using standoff missiles or use mix of MKI's /Jaguars/Mig-29's/Mirage-2000 for SEAD operations. Attrition will always there for the attacking force however, in case of IAF attacking Pakistan, we have clear upper hand.

 

[Mav3rick]

Invested in Jets ???

When has Pakistan bought weapons with its own money. Since 50s Pakistanis have been buying weapons on American aid money.
And do you think American would let you buy weapons using their money from another nation.

I don't really want to get into the whole debate of how Pakistan has been purchasing weapons, there are other threads for that. I'd advise you to contribute positively to the thread otherwise you are wasting everyone's time.

 

[Mav3rick]

So According to SOME PDF posters

RCS pretty much ensures that MKI is going to get locked on WELL BEFORE any JFT OR F16 and shot down before it gets in range to launch its arsenal of upto 12 BVRS/WVRS...

damn these INDIANS nust be so stupid they have JUST ORDERED their 4th batch of SU30MKI from russia LAST WEEK.

dont these stupid indians realise that a lightweight fighter costinmg 1/4 the price of the MKI will kick its *** in PAF

why have they ordered more ???????????

COULD IT BE something to do with

F16/52 (SINGPORE IR FORCE) V SU30MKI CONSTANT DACT battles in india have shown mki kicking the backside of the mighty F16/52 on a regular basis

or

THE 1 v 1 battles with TYPHOON in RAF and the su30mki performanmce against french mirage2000-5 in the last 24 months.

SOME OF pdf MEMBERS STATING rcs will decide who sees first HAVE ZERO IDEA about the advanced israeli jammers and shear size and processing power of a highly advanced BARS PESA radar over the BEST RADARS in PAF fighters.

THE MKI is the air supremacy fighter in south asia ON PAPER by miles

THIS IS WHY THE INDIANS who have access to virtually any fighter on the planet be it USA or EUROPE chose mki abiove the REST AND continue to order more.

IAF has no sanctions issues & no money worries LIKE PAF .

that tells all about their confidence in this beast

Read the article below tells you MKI programme todate and the names of currently 8 sqds of mki and their locations

India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs

Your last line (the link) sums it all up for those who have any idea, literally. After all those combat training sessions with practice starved RSAF Pilots that actually need training from IAF the IAF realized that their MKI's were in severe need of upgrades to be able to stand a chance against F-16's (perhaps even JFT's on JFT's turf). No wonder the sudden rush and massive investment to have the Jets upgraded as soon as possible. Not only that the trainings were conducted with Ameatur Singapore AF Pilots but also that the training sessions had no real war time scenario where a lot of other assets complement the adversary's Air Force both in the air and on the ground!

It was perhaps these shortcomings that forced IAF to look away from Russia towards other countries for recent procurements, I mean had the MKI been the beast that it is claimed by fanboys and ameaturs it would have been more than a match for the Rafale too......Quite literally, IAF could have acquired 2x times more MKI's in the same amount of money that they are looking to spend on 126 Rafale, that would mean 250+ MKI Beasts for 126 Rafale! Either the MKI's not up to mark or the Indian decision makers are just as lame as many Indians that post here. Personally I believe the former to be true.

I also, repeatedly, have to remind Indians how effective the Russian Jammers and Russian BVR Missile are so we can all but discount everything except actual dogfight that too unless the MKI has to face an AIM-120C7 from BVR......because then its Baby Bye Bye Bye......

Apart from MKI's own very powerful radars, Phalcons will pinpoint enemy's position without even leaving the Indian airspace. It will also augment with radars along the borders. Then its upto Indian armed forces how they want to proceed, weather neutralise ground based enemy radars/SAM's using standoff missiles or use mix of MKI's /Jaguars/Mig-29's/Mirage-2000 for SEAD operations. Attrition will always there for the attacking force however, in case of IAF attacking Pakistan, we have clear upper hand.

So Phalcons will be pinpointing target locations deep inside Pakistani Air Space from hundreds of KM's inside Indian Air Space? You are probably mistaking the Phalcons with Satellites!!!

 

[karan.1970]

It was perhaps these shortcomings that forced IAF to look away from Russia towards other countries for recent procurements, I mean had the MKI been the beast that it is claimed by fanboys and ameaturs it would have been more than a match for the Rafale too......Quite literally, IAF could have acquired 2x times more MKI's in the same amount of money that they are looking to spend on 126 Rafale, that would mean 250+ MKI Beasts for 126 Rafale! Either the MKI's not up to mark or the Indian decision makers are just as lame as many Indians that post here. Personally I believe the former to be true.

Then can we extend the same agreement to the super duper JFT as well.. Why would Pakistan be interested in buying additional F 16s and J 10's if JFT is as good as people on this forum make it out to be.

The answer is simple.. There are multiple roles for fighter jets in a defence strategy.. A flanker (heavy air superiority fighter) can not replace a rafael( MMRCA) or a light CAP fighter (Mig 21 --> LCA)

 

[kaykay]

Then can we extend the same agreement to the super duper JFT as well.. Why would Pakistan be interested in buying additional F 16s and J 10's if JFT is as good as people on this forum make it out to be.

The answer is simple.. There are multiple roles for fighter jets in a defence strategy.. A flanker (heavy air superiority fighter) can not replace a rafael( MMRCA) or a light CAP fighter (Mig 21 --> LCA)

exactly!! No matter what but MKI is an air superiority fighter first!! Only multirole fighters IAF have, are mere 50 mirages2000!! So IAF eventually needed a true multirole fighter and hence we go with rafale!! And procuring 270 mkis alone says all about IAF confidence with this aircraft!!

 

[Black Widow]

Because the missiles would self destruct as the target is of the same generation? That doesn't seem right, does it to you?

Because you don't know Air-warfare and You don't have comprehensive Skills

 

[Black Widow]

Well, JFT's rcs is not gonna increase that much when loaded as JFT is a light weight fighter and doesn't carry large amount of ammunitions as MKI do. I posted that comment because some people think that MKI got radar range as comparable to awacs.

You got to admit that F16/JF17/SU30 all these three fighter will detect each other at almost same distance and any of these three can not fire bvr without getting into the range of other bird's bvr. Do you agree?

And FYI, we are good at producing ECM, and we get these things from other countries as well.
Some people here mention MKI's jammers in a way as if MKI is the only bird in the world who can carry ECM/jammers.



We would not had 8lac of armed forces if we had to nuke you

Most of the 4th gen fighter RCS comes to 4-5 m2 with missile/Weapon/Pods loaded. Your all-alumunium FC 1 RCS will also comes to 4-5 m2, lets its 3 m2 (As per We know Rafael and EFT RCS are 1m2 clean 2-3 m2 loaded. MiG21 RCS 3m2 clean, 4-5 m2 loaded. Read PDF Moderator post I refer in one of my post ).

3-4 m2 FC1 (Partially loaded) can be "detected" at 120 km, 8-10 m2 Su30 MKI (fully loaded) can be detected at 120 Km. So whats the point here??


Only who has better countermeasure can win...


I say it again RCS play very less role in 4th generation fighters.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I say it again RCS play very less role in 4th generation fighters.

They don't matter much anymore due to the level of radar network sophistication employed by both IAF and PAF. To put it more simple, both sides will have an extensive coverage of each other's activities and there will be no surprises. It will be extremely difficult to hide a low flying strike package that is hugging the terrain as the 'eye in the sky' will easily be able to spot it.

Before the introduction of AWACS, the biggest nightmare for PAF was a strike package comprising of Mirage 2000's flying low in the mountains evading ground based radars. Similarly, the nightmare for IAF was a strike package of F16's flying low hugging the terrain evading ground based radars.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Why on Earth did you decide to jump into a MILITARY FORUM?

Ever heard about Matra 530 AAM? PAF used it and threw it away in the 80s after the Mirages were designated the Strike roles following the introduction of F-16s as the primary Air defense fighter.

As for Russian BVR engagement, Yet again donot INSULT the AMRAAM by comparing it with R-73 and R-77.



Guess what? No body cares about your beliefs here too!

Matra was never a BVR. You are insulting yourself.

I don't care about your opinions on R73 or R77, it is clear if you had a source for proving the superiority of AMRAAM, you would have posted it by now.

BVR capable means the Radar incorporated in the Avionics suite can use a BVR missile! The Grifo Mx series of Radars that were installed under the ROSE upgrades are BVR capable. And this is common knowledge, available throughout the internet.





Google it to take a hike!

Actually BVR capable means ability of the aircraft to perform BVR warfare, Since you don't have BVR missiles, you can't perform BVR warfare. So shut up. Your mirages are still just WVR and they will fall an easy prey to our plethora of BVR capable aircraft.

 

[trident2010]

So Phalcons will be pinpointing target locations deep inside Pakistani Air Space from hundreds of KM's inside Indian Air Space? You are probably mistaking the Phalcons with Satellites!!!

Yes. Phalcons can able to track multiple, fast manoeuvring targets at a range of up to 250 miles (400km). This means it can agument the IAF strike packages whithout leaving the Indian airspace. This in addition to Indian ground radars along the borders, satellites and MKI's BARS radar if used effectively will give it a definite advantage.

 

[Gentelman]

Incorrect.

Matra R530 was a medium range missile and was used till the mid-80s in the PAF on Mirages.



What took IAF 15 years you summed it up in 5 minutes. So wise of you and so unwise of IAF perhaps.

i will not say incorrect to u..
well as u said medium range missile...
while BVR=beyond visual range.....
medium range missile isnot beyoun visual range....
and It is clear from PAF official statements that PAF got BVR capability with induction of JF 17 means Mairages were not BVR capable....

 

[DARKY]

Yes. Phalcons can able to track multiple, fast manoeuvring targets at a range of up to 250 miles (400km). This means it can agument the IAF strike packages whithout leaving the Indian airspace. This in addition to Indian ground radars along the borders, satellites and MKI's BARS radar if used effectively will give it a definite advantage.

Actually 400Km is for the targets with the RCS of about 1-2m^2.
For a normal combat plane it goes well over 600km.