How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Gentelman]

Ignorance is no excuse my friend. Internet & Google are your good friends, look up the details on ROSE upgrades that were performed and the fire control radars that were incorporated. They are BVR capable. Perhaps, we did not have BVR capable missiles before AIM-120C were procured and later SD-10. Maybe we had the capability much earlier, something from China maybe, as there was no point in acquisition BVR capable fire control radars for Mirages without procurement of BVR Missiles.

source will be appreciated.
well u can say that radars are BVR capable but fighters...
still a big question mark...
and why would PAF waste its money on a jet being retired...
soo according to ur opinion PAF mairages have BVR capability and ut never be used coz PAF dont have BVR missiles...
PAF never goes for a upgrade which is not profitable.....
these mairages id have BVR caoability they would be used severly...
bt these not till now fired a single BVR missile.....
soo still negitive...

 

[rockstarIN]

JFT's radar range is >105km for 5m2, while MKI's range is around 120km for 3m2 fighter. MKI got better range but you have to consiider other factors as well, JFT's RCS is under 1m2, and it cannot be loaded with too much of weapons, so its RCS would not increase much when loaded, while the MKI's is giant in size, and fully loaded MKI will have much higher RCS, that way F16 and JF17 will detect mki earlier.

JFT range is 105 for 5m2, but not 210km for 10m2 or even 20mc2.

It is also the size of the antenna and the power available for the same.

Just think about tourch light, a smaller tourch cant see BIG size target 'out of its range' there is a limit. You need a bigger more powerful tourch to see things at longer range.

 

[Paan Singh]

Hence it is safe to say the election of Rafale 'may' not be entirely on 'performance' grounds as opposed by many here. Quite understandable actually.

No its otherwise .

Rafale passed more parameters than any other fighter in dog fight so it was selected.

EFT---still far away from be an multi role fighter and AESA not ready.

Mig-35--upgraded mig 29 and still under development

f-16--pakistan have it and single engine + U.S restrictions and strings.

f-18--U.S restrictions otherwise excellent platform.

Grippin---> single engine and american components in it ..

Rafale have over come such drawbacks and hence it was winner.

and FYI,only 2 -3 out of 6 was able to take off from leh ladakh and rest got failed.

 

[rockstarIN]

source will be appreciated.
well u can say that radars are BVR capable but fighters...
still a big question mark...
and why would PAF waste its money on a jet being retired...
soo according to ur opinion PAF mairages have BVR capability and ut never be used coz PAF dont have BVR missiles...
PAF never goes for a upgrade which is not profitable.....
these mairages id have BVR caoability they would be used severly...
bt these not till now fired a single BVR missile.....
soo still negitive...

There were a news/rumour that PAF added the Rose upgrade radar with some modified short range south african missile which is actually beyond visual range, but well with in 30 km range since ROSE radar range is 30-35 km.

 

[airomerix]

source will be appreciated.
well u can say that radars are BVR capable but fighters...
still a big question mark...
and why would PAF waste its money on a jet being retired...
soo according to ur opinion PAF mairages have BVR capability and ut never be used coz PAF dont have BVR missiles...
PAF never goes for a upgrade which is not profitable.....
these mairages id have BVR caoability they would be used severly...
bt these not till now fired a single BVR missile.....
soo still negitive...

Incorrect.

Matra R530 was a medium range missile and was used till the mid-80s in the PAF on Mirages.

No its otherwise .

Rafale passed more parameters than any other fighter in dog fight so it was selected.

EFT---still far away from be an multi role fighter and AESA not ready.

Mig-35--upgraded mig 29 and still under development

f-16--pakistan have it and single engine + U.S restrictions and strings.

f-18--U.S restrictions otherwise excellent platform.

Grippin---> single engine and american components in it ..

Rafale have over come such drawbacks and hence it was winner.

and FYI,only 2 -3 out of 6 was able to take off from leh ladakh and rest got failed.

What took IAF 15 years you summed it up in 5 minutes. So wise of you and so unwise of IAF perhaps.

 

[Paan Singh]

What took IAF 15 years you summed it up in 5 minutes. So wise of you and so unwise of IAF perhaps.

what 15 years? and kindly challenge any of my point.

or open the mmrca threads

 

[airomerix]

what 15 years? and kindly challenge any of my point.

or open the mmrca threads

All of your points are flawed with the single statement of your Defence minister when he stated to Press that atleast two different jets will be brought as they do not want to add all the eggs to one basket. But what we have here is an entirely different story.

Read the following report to know what exactly did your MMRCA deal went through.

The battle to sell fighter aircraft - The National

 

[Paan Singh]

All of your points are flawed with the single statement of your Defence minister when he stated to Press that atleast two different jets will be brought as they do not want to add all the eggs to one basket. But what we have here is an entirely different story.

Read the following report to know what exactly did your MMRCA deal went through.

The battle to sell fighter aircraft - The National

why india will buy 2 different jets? and i will suggest you to look at MMRCA threads ...
i know that this theory was floated and there was others too like dassault is out from race and EFT is winner and india will buy f-18 ..

Given all this, MoD has ruled out the possibility of "any comeback" by Typhoon despite carping by the four nations (UK, Germany, Spain and Italy) backing it, and will begin "exclusive and extensive negotiations" with Rafale-manufacturer Dassault Aviation next week. "The actual contract for the complex project should be ready for inking by September-October," said a source.

British PM David Cameron may have vowed to "encourage" India to reconsider its decision to go in for Rafale, instead of the EADS-manufactured Typhoon, in the largest "open-tender" military aviation deal going around the globe. But that is highly unlikely to happen.

"The fact is that the cost deferential between Typhoon and Rafale was very high... it would cost India around 22% to 25% more if the former had been selected. No government can agree to so much extra," the source said.

Both Rafale and Typhoon had been found "compliant" on all the 643-660 technical parameters laid down to meet specific operational requirements of India, after gruelling field trials by IAF test pilots spread over two years.

and

The other four jets -- the American F/A-18 'Super Hornet' and F-16 'Super Viper', the Russian MiG-35 and Swedish Gripen - were weeded out from the hotly-contested race last year since they did not meet all the "test points".

Rafale News: MMRCA, Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review

as per your intro in section,i thot something else abt you but you are too ignorant about rafale and selection about MMRCA

 

[Mav3rick]

JFT range is 105 for 5m2, but not 210km for 10m2 or even 20mc2.

It is also the size of the antenna and the power available for the same.

Just think about tourch light, a smaller tourch cant see BIG size target 'out of its range' there is a limit. You need a bigger more powerful tourch to see things at longer range.

But is there a point for every single Jet to have a massive radar such as the MKI that not only lights up all other radars and acts as a homing beacon for Anti Radiation Missiles? I mean it's not like the MKI can actually engage a target at 140km's and break away. Besides, with the introduction of AWACS and data linked network, all the Jets in the air would be aware of adversaries 300km's and beyond.

 

[airomerix]

why india will buy 2 different jets? and i will suggest you to look at MMRCA threads ...
i know that this theory was floated and there was others too like dassault is out from race and EFT is winner and india will buy f-18 ..

Thank you for making my point. The rafale was rejected after test trails and all your officers were really happy about it until the french came again and offered ToTs and played dirty games. All iam saying is Rafale is STILL not selected on PERFORMANCE grounds. Finding it hard to digest?




and



Rafale News: MMRCA, Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review

as per your intro in section,i thot something else abt you but you are too ignorant about rafale and selection about MMRCA

An unnecessary part.

Anyhow I never joined this forum to make any impression in the first place. And the best part? Iam least concerned.

Best Regards

 

[Mav3rick]

source will be appreciated.
well u can say that radars are BVR capable but fighters...
still a big question mark...
and why would PAF waste its money on a jet being retired...
soo according to ur opinion PAF mairages have BVR capability and ut never be used coz PAF dont have BVR missiles...
PAF never goes for a upgrade which is not profitable.....
these mairages id have BVR caoability they would be used severly...
bt these not till now fired a single BVR missile.....
soo still negitive...

As I said, Google ROSE upgrades for PAF. Having BVR missiles is another matter, my claim has always been that the Mirages were BVR capable with the ROSE upgrade.

 

[Paan Singh]

Thank you for making my point. The rafale was rejected after test trails and all your officers were really happy about it until the french came again and offered ToTs and played dirty games. All iam saying is Rafale is STILL not selected on PERFORMANCE grounds. Finding it hard to digest?
Best Regards

no,it was not ..you can keep it ranting about it ..As i said there were theories floated and it was one of them.
if dirty games would have been the case then you could see f 18 or f-16 in indian selection as no body can play dirty and no body can offer more than U.S or pressurise like them.

why i should digest the things who dont even exist?

i will again suggest you to have a view on mmrca threads

 

[karan.1970]

What took IAF 15 years you summed it up in 5 minutes. So wise of you and so unwise of IAF perhaps.

He has the gift of hindsight mate..Like It took mankind thousands of years to discover maths, and you used 5 and 15 in a single sentence.. So wise of you and unwise of mankind

 

[Mav3rick]

no,it was not ..you can keep it ranting about it ..As i said there were theories floated and it was one of them.
if dirty games would have been the case then you could see f 18 or f-16 in indian selection as no body can play dirty and no body can offer more than U.S or pressurise like them.

why i should digest the things who dont even exist?

i will again suggest you to have a view on mmrca threads

Wise men would have learned a long time ago not to deal with US as the US is as untrustworthy as a supplier as it is as a partner or friend. If only my countrymen had learned that before they invested so heavily in new F-16's with all those conditions. They should have, instead, invested in Jets that came without strings and with guaranteed continuity of supplies and arms in case of war.

 

[rockstarIN]

But is there a point for every single Jet to have a massive radar such as the MKI that not only lights up all other radars and acts as a homing beacon for Anti Radiation Missiles? I mean it's not like the MKI can actually engage a target at 140km's and break away. Besides, with the introduction of AWACS and data linked network, all the Jets in the air would be aware of adversaries 300km's and beyond.

Anti radiation A2A will only be in terminal phase, you need a active guidance for most of the flight. Actually ramjet version of BVRS will obviously bring the long range shots quite often with enhanced no escape zone.