Swirl of Controversy: Cope India and Red Flag 2008 Exercises
Starting in 2004 the joint Cope India exercise began over South Asia (after an absence of nearly 40 years) pitting F-15C of the USAF against a mix of older and newer Indian Air Force (IAF): Mirage 2000, MiG-21, MiG-27, SU-30Mk (not MKi) and Jaguar aircraft.
However this is where everyones expectations ceased?
By every available account: the IAF soundly defeated American F-15Cs over and over and over.
[Above] Note drop-tanks fitted to USAF F-15C and IAF Mirage 2000s.
American officials credited Indian pilots with being:
"very proficient in [their] aircraft and smart on tactics. That combination was tough for us to overcome,"
"The adversaries are better than we thought," Col. Mike Snodgrass added.” And in the case of the Indian Air Force both their training and some of their equipment was better than we anticipated."
"The Indians flew a number of different fighters, including the French-made Mirage 2000 and the Russian-made MiG-27 and MiG-29, but the two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21, and the Su-30MK Flanker, also made in Russia."
When questioned on the capabilities of IAF pilots, Col Greg Newbech, USAF Team Leader made the following remarks:
“What we’ve seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with best AF in the world.”
“I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home.”
“The greatest compliment we heard from an IAF pilot – You American pilots are just like us, simply down to earth people.”
When word of the Cope India 2004 results reached Washington DC, it caused an uproar. Some western military observers quickly attempted to dismiss or reframe the results, claiming that USAF did not bring its true ‘go-to-war-gear’ to these exercises.
True, American USAF F-15C’s typically were outnumbered 3-to-1. However most of these explanations have dubious merit:
1.) AIM-120 AMRAAM missile and AESA radars would have made little difference in BVR - as new jamming technologies (like DFRM) degrade or negate most of these (radio EM-spectrum) AIM-120 class capabilities - regardless. In one sense: active-homing (fire-and-forget) BVR class weapons have become increasingly ‘easier’ to elude - using DRFM-class deception techniques. Indeed this might be what effectively occurs during 'Red Flag' 2008, (so keep reading.)
2.) It is unclear which R-27 missile round was employed by the IAF in 2004: IR-homing (R-27T), semi-active radar homing (R-27R) or active radar homing (R-27AE). Had the latest fire-and-forget class been allowed, the IAF would have simply used their R-77 similar to the American AIM-120 round. R-77 also has an IR-homing version - so again - another “wash?”
3.) Russian Flanker was designed to counter and defeat F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18. Its no surprise experienced Indian aircrews might prevail.
4.) Indians only used the Su-30 "MK" not their Su-30 "MKi." Reportedly IAF Flankers simply used their larger radar and longer range weapons to fire on the F-15C before USAF fighters could fire back.
5.) Lastly the American military always fight its wars over hostile airspace: so USAF-to-IAF numbers/odds/environment is 150% applicable?
Best link author could locate on Cope India:
WHAT
Subsequent Cope India exercises in 2005, 2006 had little to no information coming out. Judging from the hubris displayed by the USAF in 2008 – the silence from the USAF during the 2005 and 2006 Gwalior exercises – was apparently - deafening...
- Now - jump to the 2008 Nellis AFB ‘Red Flag’ exercises hosted by the USAF -
This time the Indian Air Force bring their new Su-30 MKi.
64th and 65th Aggressor squadrons at Nellis AFB, Nev.
Colonel Terrence Fornof, Director of the Requirements and Testing office (USAF Warfare Center, Nellis AFB), was providing a briefing to a number of retired US generals, [video has in the past appeared, been removed, and reappeared on the Internet]:
Listen to a pod-cast audio regarding the same presentation (even MORE interesting) * note: pod-cast w/Fight editor appears to have been pulled. The thrust of this interview was that Nellis instructors in the F-15 were able to catch the F-22 in a turn:
PodOmatic | Best Free Podcasts
According to the Colonels own hand positions then a properly flown Su-30 can (also) catch an F-22 in a turn. So what - actually - is the USAF trying to say?
The US Colonels remarks caused an international flap in India.
Did some in the USAF have something to prove?
Indian Su-30MKi landing at Nellis AFB, Nev. in 2008
Problem is Colonel Fornof comments produced more questions than answers:
a.) Indian MiG-21IBis (I-Bis) "Bison" are equipped with Russian-made Kopyo radars, not Israeli “F-16” radars.
b.) That Su-30MKIs "lost in 1-v-1" DACT at Mountain Home AFB, there was apparently no such training done at Mountain.
c.) FOD concerns are not unusual for any air force operating halfway around the world. The Flanker has simply immense loiter and combat persistence ability – so take-off (fighter scramble) intervals are not (as) critical for Flanker - as for shorter range aircraft.
d.) MKi use Lyulka AL-31 turbofans, not Tumansky as was stated.
Indian Air Force MiG-21IBis (I-Bis). The paradigm(s) after 1982 Bekaa Valley and 1991 Gulf War - appear to have been misguided?
Indian MiG-21-IBis with R-77 "Adder" missile round. The R-77 is the equivalent to the American AIM-120.
So what conclusions, if any, can be drawn?
The paradigms established/embraced after Bekaa Valley ‘Turkey Shoot’ in 1982 and the results of the 1991 Gulf War appear to have been misguided by 2004 - due to Indian MiG-21IBis (I-Bis).
There is no substitute for flight hours and training. Proper training allows aircrews (of any air force) to extract the maximum performance out of their aircraft.
A similar post-stall counter-tactic was used by Nellis (F-15) instructors against less-experienced aircrews in both F-22 and Su-30. So by definition: a properly flown Su-30 can (also) catch an F-22 in a turn?
Remarking on F-22 needing ‘more missiles’ - is consistent with F-22 having only two IR missiles, historical air-to-air missiles hit probabilities and Raptors lack of helmet sighting. Su-30 brings helmet-sighting, nearly twice the number of missile rounds and a huge fuel reserves - at much (much) lower costs - to the fight.
His remarks on the inability of USAF instructor aircraft to employ their AIM-120 AMRAAM round - is interesting. Whether it was jamming, snooping, heads-up defensive flying, or other tactical issues, his comments are (duly) noted.
Remarks on the Indian MiG-21 are revealing. During the Bekaa Valley (Lebanon) air battles of June 1982, Israeli F-15 and F-16 radars had no trouble seeing (and downing scores of) Mig-21s. So DRFM-class jammers even on a MiG-21 - may have pushed BVR off the table - for any radio-spectrum AIM-120 equipped fighter - even Raptor?
Colonel Fornof was referring to this video (F-22 and Su-30 side-by-side):
Looking at the video, an astute observer noting airspeed, afterburner usage, altitude-loss, energy-recovery and aircraft attitude during/between maneuvers: can see that both F-22 and Flanker evenly matched regardless of Colonel Fornof statements or hand position(s).
Below is the complete Flanker demo. Watch the superb energy recovery [at payback 2:10] followed by a simply impossible maneuver of Su-30 at playback 2:13:
The Raptor does perform some of the maneuvers at lower speeds, however keep in mind the Flanker is much larger than Raptor, and F-22 lacks the pilot helmet-sighting of the Sukhoi.
New video [below] showing that - in fact the F-22 Raptor is in big trouble.
Indian News Report of2008 Red Flag:
The Sukhoi is going to be with us for quite awhile, and by any measure, is (and will be) a nightmare for USAF/USN brass, planners and aircrews alike. Flanker has loiter and combat persistence ability - that has no western equivalent.
Train how you fight and fight how you train, train and train.
The question may be who fights over friendly airspace and who fights of hostile airspace?
We count no less than 12 hard points on this MKi: four on each wing, one on each engine nacelle, and two on the aircrafts centerline. Even without external drop tanks, Flanker endurance and combat radius remains unequaled in the world.
Multi-sensor Advanced-Flanker with pilots of equal skill - should be more (more) than a match for F-22.
When or if the Lockheed-Martin F-22 Raptor participates in a future Cope India exercise at Gwalior India, whatever the results, they are certain to be quite the revelation - even if we never officially hear about them.
Conversely, we firmly conclude that procuring additional F-22s for the USAF will not resolve anything of this. One can purchase between three (3) and seven (7) Advanced Flanker for the cost of a single (1) F-22. To put it another way: if four (4) F-22 Raptors fly against twelve (12) to twenty-eight (28) Advanced Flankers - none (none) of the F-22s can survive this engagement. F-22 is simply far (far) too expensive for a real world.
India has placed a fresh order for forty (40) more Sukhois with Russia.
Your thoughts?
well if its not angoor khatte hain
