How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Hasnain2009]

no he is not talking about radar. he said about aircrafts range. and also su30mki bars radar detection range is 400+km and its tracking range is 200+km.

Believe it or not, the JF17 and F16 (without awacs support) will detect rhino aka mki's well before getting detected by mki.

See this post:

Now lets come to the radar, sure BARS is one heck of a power house but according to your own vayu sena tripod



Or if you wanna take AERO India 2011 chart it is stated at 135 KM

By that A bars may end up looking at a 3m2 RCS at about

123 KM (IF VAYU SENA TRIPOD IS TAKEN AS TRUE)
118 KM (IF AERO INDIA 2011 chart is taken as true)

So if mki's range for 3m2 RCS figher is 123-118km, then tell me at what range mki will detect F16, whose RCS is 1.2m2 and JF17's RCS is even lesser.
And JF17's range for 5m2 RCS is 105km, then what would be its range for 20m2 RCS rhino? And F16's radar's coverage is even bigger.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Believe it or not, the JF17 and F16 (without awacs support) will detect rhino aka mki's well before getting detected by mki.

See this post:



So if mki's range for 3m2 RCS figher is 123-118km, then tell me at what range mki will detect F16, whose RCS is 1.2m2 and JF17's RCS is even lesser.
And JF17's range for 5m2 RCS is 105km, then what would be its range for 20m2 RCS rhino? And F16's radar's coverage is even bigger.

he he he sirji aap samjhte hain ki jin cheezn ko hamne Red flag jaisee jagaho per chupaya use hum ek publik event me bata denge

sirji apne to suna hi hoga hathi ke ddant dikhane ke aur aur khane ke aur

 

[kaykay]

Novator K-100 'awacs killer' with a range more than 300kms and integrated on the Su30Mki will also be a game changer!!!

 

[Hasnain2009]

he he he sirji aap samjhte hain ki jin cheezn ko hamne Red flag jaisee jagaho per chupaya use hum ek publik event me bata denge

sirji apne to suna hi hoga hathi ke ddant dikhane ke aur aur khane ke aur

This idiom is well known to PAF as well...and it is paf's habit to show off minimum of the capabilites

 

[GURU DUTT]

This idiom is well known to PAF as well...and it is paf's habit to show off minimum of the capabilites

he he he he good for you

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

I am not sure how many squadrons of JFT we currently have, technically it should be over 5 as China offered 50 JFT's on urgent basis last year. Most of the F-16's have received MLU in Turkey, the procurement and upgrade process was initiated back in 2005/06. Even our Mirages and F-7xx's can fire BVR missiles (mirages after the ROSE upgrades).





MKI may be a match for JFT & F-16's 1:1 and without support on neutral ground but when you throw things such as AWACS/SAM Systems/Ground based EW systems then things change drastically.

Where did you read that JFT Bl-II has been released to production? And if there are ZERO upgrades then how can it be a BL-II?? MLU's have almost been completed. And finally, an MKI has to carry 2-3 times the weapons load of a JFT/F-16 because of reliability of the weapons it carries and the problems with the radar guiding these weapons. The reliability of IAF BVR's is seriously discredited and in reality they have a kill probability under 20% where as the BVR's carried by PAF have a kill probability over 80%. In essence, MKI has to fire 4 BVR missiles to match the kill probability of a single launch from JFT/F-16.

And lets not talk about the mock exercises where you wanted so many things out of the equation. In real combat, an F-15 pair would eat the MKI before the MKI can even detect an F-15 pair.

The claim of obtaining 50 jets from China on an emergency basis was never confirmed. Your own people question it. Officially only 2 squadrons of Jf17 are operational, I said three because some members say that 3 have been raised.

About the mirage Rose upgrades, can you please tell me which BVR A2A missile are they using?

JFT Blk II specs were discussed on this very forum by your own compatriots. As far as I know, the only upgrades were increasing the Radar range by 20 km and introducing an IRST. If you know of anything else, please enlighten me. I said "almost zero", not zero.
Please back your rubbish claim of IAF's kill probability being lower with a source. It is these kind of things you pakistanis invent when you find it hard to accept reality.

Again your last paragraph shows your frustration and inability to accept a fact.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Believe it or not, the JF17 and F16 (without awacs support) will detect rhino aka mki's well before getting detected by mki.

See this post:



So if mki's range for 3m2 RCS figher is 123-118km, then tell me at what range mki will detect F16, whose RCS is 1.2m2 and JF17's RCS is even lesser.
And JF17's range for 5m2 RCS is 105km, then what would be its range for 20m2 RCS rhino? And F16's radar's coverage is even bigger.

You're taking clean RCS, RCS of loaded F-16 or JF-17 will be very close to 5 sq m. And you're negating the role of jammers, ECMs in an aircraft.

 

[airomerix]

The claim of obtaining 50 jets from China on an emergency basis was never confirmed. Your own people question it. Officially only 2 squadrons of Jf17 are operational, I said three because some members say that 3 have been raised.

About the mirage Rose upgrades, can you please tell me which BVR A2A missile are they using?

JFT Blk II specs were discussed on this very forum by your own compatriots. As far as I know, the only upgrades were increasing the Radar range by 20 km and introducing an IRST. If you know of anything else, please enlighten me. I said "almost zero", not zero.
Please back your rubbish claim of IAF's kill probability being lower with a source. It is these kind of things you pakistanis invent when you find it hard to accept reality.

Again your last paragraph shows your frustration and inability to accept a fact.

You are very much ill informed my friend. No. 27 Tactical Strike Squadron which is equipped with Mirage ROSE III variants is fully battle ready with MAR-1. Which means its weapons system is fully fucntional with BVR missiles such as SD-10 and PL-11s which have been spotted at PAF bases quite alot of times. If you think we are underestimating the MKIs then you are doing nothing except returning the favor by considering Mirages as sitting ducks.

As for JF-17 Block 2, what makes you think there are no other upgrades? An improved radar and the integration of IRST is just what came forward. You never know whats cooking.And oh the best part? We are building it!

 

[kaykay]

Believe it or not, the JF17 and F16 (without awacs support) will detect rhino aka mki's well before getting detected by mki.

See this post:



So if mki's range for 3m2 RCS figher is 123-118km, then tell me at what range mki will detect F16, whose RCS is 1.2m2 and JF17's RCS is even lesser.
And JF17's range for 5m2 RCS is 105km, then what would be its range for 20m2 RCS rhino? And F16's radar's coverage is even bigger.

Su-30MKI will detect:
Mig-29SMT at 160km.
F-16 Block 52 at 140km.
JF-17 at 140km.
While
JF-17 will detect:
Su-30MKI at 112km.
Mig-29SMT at 97km.
F-16 Block52 at 85km.

 

[airomerix]

You're taking clean RCS, RCS of loaded F-16 or JF-17 will be very close to 5 sq m. And you're negating the role of jammers, ECMs in an aircraft.

And from where did you this figure from? Or its just a vague statement?

 

[Paan Singh]

This idiom is well known to PAF as well...and it is paf's habit to show off minimum of the capabilites

if you think india show off every thing then you are in dilemma ..

Read how india tested its nukes and read how you? it will clear your myth

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

You are very much ill informed my friend. No. 27 Tactical Strike Squadron which is equipped with Mirage ROSE III variants is fully battle ready with MAR-1. Which means its weapons system is fully fucntional with BVR missiles such as SD-10 and PL-11s which have been spotted at PAF bases quite alot of times. If you think we are underestimating the MKIs then you are doing nothing except returning the favor by considering Mirages as sitting ducks.

As for JF-17 Block 2, what makes you think there are no other upgrades? An improved radar and the integration of IRST is just what came forward. You never know whats cooking.And oh the best part? We are building it!

MAR-1 is not a BVR missile. Its an anti radiation missile. Even if we take mirages into equation, my point is same, 8 squadrons of MKi's are enough for all the capable planes in PAF at the moment.

About JF17 upgrades, I am only repeating what has been said by your people. And if JF17 can hide its capabilities, MKI can as well. It is a general notion among pakistanis that RCS of MKI is 15-18 m2. I have seen a source where its RCS was mentioned to be 3 m2. We will never know anything more than what has been told us, so let us restrict the discussion only to that.

 

[airomerix]

MAR-1 is not a BVR missile. Its an anti radiation missile. Even if we take mirages into equation, my point is same, 8 squadrons of MKi's are enough for all the capable planes in PAF at the moment.

About JF17 upgrades, I am only repeating what has been said by your people. And if JF17 can hide its capabilities, MKI can as well. It is a general notion among pakistanis that RCS of MKI is 15-18 m2. I have seen a source where its RCS was mentioned to be 3 m2. We will never know anything more than what has been told us, so let us restrict the discussion only to that.

Since we would be discussing only 'What we are told" then I think the mentioned radar coverage of SU-30 at a flex on Aero India leads to the following calculations.

BVR, Head-to-Head:

The Frontal RCS of F-16C: 1.2m2

The Frontal RCS of Su-27/30: 10m2 (Thank the God for not making it 20m2)


Maximum effective detective Range:

AN/APG-68 V5 (F-16 MLUs): 70~80 km for RCS = 5m2 target

AN/APG-68 V9 (F-16 Block 52s) : 90~105 km for RCS = 5m2 target

AN/APG-80: 130km for RCS = 5m2 target



N-001 (Su-27S): 80~100 km for RCS = 3m2 target

N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2): 90~110 km for RCS = 3m2 target

N-001 V (Su-27SM): 135~150 km for RCS = 3m2 target

(AIR INTERNATIONAL, 2004, Jan)

NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI): "140~160 km for an F-16 target"
(The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena)


Theoretically,

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V5 to detect Su-27/30 is about 85~95 km.

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V9 to detect Su-27/30 is about 110~125 km.

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-80 to detect Su-27/30 is about 155 km.



@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 (Su-27S) to detect F-16C is about 64~80 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2) to detect F-16C is about 70~88 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 V (Su-27 SM) to detect F-16C is about 105~120 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI) to detect F-16C is about 140~160 km.

BTW its pretty even. No?

And iam still assuming the RCS of MKI to be 10 since the F-15s RCS is 11 and these two birds are pretty similar in design and size.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Since we would be discussing only 'What we are told" then I think the mentioned radar coverage of SU-30 at a flex on Aero India leads to the following calculations.

BVR, Head-to-Head:

The Frontal RCS of F-16C: 1.2m2

The Frontal RCS of Su-27/30: 10m2 (Thank the God for not making it 20m2)


Maximum effective detective Range:

AN/APG-68 V5 (F-16 MLUs): 70~80 km for RCS = 5m2 target

AN/APG-68 V9 (F-16 Block 52s) : 90~105 km for RCS = 5m2 target

AN/APG-80: 130km for RCS = 5m2 target



N-001 (Su-27S): 80~100 km for RCS = 3m2 target

N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2): 90~110 km for RCS = 3m2 target

N-001 V (Su-27SM): 135~150 km for RCS = 3m2 target

(AIR INTERNATIONAL, 2004, Jan)

NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI): "140~160 km for an F-16 target"
(The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena)


Theoretically,

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V5 to detect Su-27/30 is about 85~95 km.

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V9 to detect Su-27/30 is about 110~125 km.

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-80 to detect Su-27/30 is about 155 km.



@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 (Su-27S) to detect F-16C is about 64~80 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2) to detect F-16C is about 70~88 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 V (Su-27 SM) to detect F-16C is about 105~120 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI) to detect F-16C is about 140~160 km.

BTW its pretty even. No?

One word. Jammers. However as I said, the RCS is not confirmed. There is no reliable source about RCS of Su30MKI in the whole world. All the sources you can think of merely speculate when it comes to RCS of Su30MKI.

 

[airomerix]

One word. Jammers. However as I said, the RCS is not confirmed. There is no reliable source about RCS of Su30MKI in the whole world. All the sources you can think of merely speculate when it comes to RCS of Su30MKI.

The original Su-30/27 RCS is classified in the same category as of an F-15 (ie. +10m)

However I did read some where that Russians have applied some LO-/stealth- technologies in Su-35/37, and decreased its frontal RCS to the 1~3m2 class. But as far as I know, these technologies haven't been used to the exporting Su-27/30 right now.