How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[airomerix]

2 BVR missiles coming at F-16 are always better than AMRAAM waiting to get fired.[/B]

Now you just proved how much mis-conceptional are you. In your dreams! You are confusing the effective range with the kinematic range! Seefor yourself Hospedagem de sites com domínio GRÁTIS! - UOL HOST there is a graph (from a MiG29 manual) concerning the R27 R; you will notice that while the kinematic range of the missile is ~ 70 km, the effectiverange is 35 km! Not to mention that the R 27 is a semi-active missile! This means it is no match for an AMRAAM.

As for WVR, if the F-16 has the JHMCS/AIM 9M combo, there will be no contest...

It is always nice to LEARN you know.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Even if the Block 52s and MKI detect each other at almost equal ranges then the weapons system of Block 52 leaves Su-30 in a dilemma. R-27 and R-77 are no match to the AMRAAM and iam sure i dont surprise you.

please read up the informative posts on this thread from the beginning, then only you will come to know that it's not just radar detection range/rcs and missile range that matters..Avionics,jammers,speed, range, altitude, number of hard points,t/w ratio, etc all matters..Consider each factor and then make your guess. B-)

 

[airomerix]

One word again. Jammers

Please elaborate your statement first. What Jammers? Do you even how jammers work? And 'which' jammers are we talking about here. And one fellow of yours was describing Phalcon's role as a 'jamming platform' for the Su-30s. What rubbish is this? Do you even know what exactly are the capabilities of the Phalcon? :S

 

[PoKeMon]

Your General's slepticism did force him to divert 2 Armoured and 3 Infantry divisions away from your western border. Thanks to China?

First off the question was not regarding Pakistan at all.... It was regarding other borders (bangladesh and China) ... specifically taking air defense in to account, and you have pretty much answered it yourself, even if you are in a defensive mode, you will require some defense and that in turn means the division of forces (be it land or air) for other borders ...
Which in turn means that IAF cannot afford to play at full strength ...

You both are correct in saying that Indian armed forces wont be at there best at the western sector. A 75:25 breakage seems legit.

But then isn't 75 % is capable enough to take on Pakistan?? For me it would be sufficient enough to outnumber pakistan forces both in terms of quality and quantity.

Also IA dont need to base its heavy armoured vehicles at NE sector since terrain doesn't permit so. Perhaps few T72s.

The basic premise of CSD is to neutralise pak quickly with majority of Indian strength and then quickly mobilise the excess force from western to eastern front to deter any chinese direct involvement.

Personally I feel India will make sure through diplomatic channels that China doesn't get involves and they have done it successfully in past as well.

 

[airomerix]

please read up the informative posts on this thread from the beginning, then only you will come to know that it's not just radar detection range/rcs and missile range that matters..Avionics,jammers,speed, range, altitude, number of hard points,t/w ratio, etc all matters..Consider each factor and then make your guess. B-)

I saw that coming. Please see the post no. 1183 on the previous page. Ive done all the homework for you for your own good regarding RCS.

As for missile range, uhhh

Now you just proved how much mis-conceptional In your dreams! You are confusing the effective range with the kinematic range! Seefor yourself Hospedagem de sites com domínio GRÁTIS! - UOL HOST there is a graph (from a MiG29 manual) concerning the R27 R; you will notice that while the kinematic range of the missile is ~ 70 km, the effectiverange is 35 km! Not to mention that the R 27 is a semi-active missile! This means it is no match for an AMRAAM.

As for WVR, if the F-16 has the JHMCS/AIM 9M combo, there will be no contest...

It is always nice to LEARN you know.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-80.html#ixzz2GjMTkOFH

Perhaps it is you needs 'consider' and 'know' all the concepts of weapons delivery. No?

 

[PoKeMon]

Now you just proved how much mis-conceptional In your dreams! You are confusing the effective range with the kinematic range! Seefor yourself Hospedagem de sites com domínio GRÁTIS! - UOL HOST there is a graph (from a MiG29 manual) concerning the R27 R; you will notice that while the kinematic range of the missile is ~ 70 km, the effectiverange is 35 km! Not to mention that the R 27 is a semi-active missile! This means it is no match for an AMRAAM.

As for WVR, if the F-16 has the JHMCS/AIM 9M combo, there will be no contest...

It is always nice to LEARN you know.

Pak got C variant of AMRAAM and different versions of R27 got more range than that. R27ER (extended range= 130 Km) and R27ET(infrared homing=120 Km) are better range missiles then AMRAAM C variant. Apply the same effective range logic to AMRAAM as well and you will find lesser effective and kinematic range for AMRAAM.

Though it would not be wise to expect much of the WVR confrontation but the Su30 MKI is one of the most agile and manouverable fighter in the world. So there would be a good contest to say the least.

And yes its nice to learn so keep learning

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

I saw that coming. Please see the post no. 1183 on the previous page. Ive done all the homework for you for your own good regarding RCS.

As for missile range, uhhh

sorry but I didn't see anything on the post you mentioned other than rcs vs detection range calculations..like I said on earlier post "you have to take all factors" in to your calculations of how a bvr battle will begin and end up.

 

[PoKeMon]

sorry but I didn't see anything on the post you mentioned other than rcs vs detection range calculations..like I said on earlier post "you have to take all factors" in to your calculations of how a bvr battle will begin and end up.

He is just fielding R-27R variant against AMRAAM and conviniently skipping R-27ER and ET variants. Refer my reply to him.

 

[Storm Force]

81 PAGES OF DEBATE from PDF members carrying multinational flags GOING AROUND IN CIRCLES ....

su30mki is MASSIVE problem .... FACT ....

its massive because TODAY on new years day THERE are 160+ SU30MKI sitting on indian aierfields rising by 20+ annually thanks to deals signed years ago and only last week.

The only FIGHTER any where near to SU30MKI in OVERALL capability is the USA supplied F16. This the most lethal platform in the PAF esp withn amraam c5 BVRs BUT they are outnumbered 2-1 FACT

jft thunder TODAY ....IS NOW WHERE NEAR the complete combat package that F16 provides and is too small too ligtweight to be even considered a F16 type fighter. THE F16 is bigger far superior TWR and load and weapons. THUNDER on its own against a matured FLANKER wud be suicide

ASK THE CHINEASE they fly over 350 flankers

you need a BIGGER LARGER MULTI ROLERS to take on MKI and survive...

PS to those talking about mltiple assests in war

check these out tell me how PAFS JFT THUNDERS wil cope with these

51 mirage 2000-5

The Mirage upgrade is expensive, but its not just an upgrade. It is the complete rebuilding of the aircraft. Almost every part is going to be changed. Even the airframe won't be the same. Parts of it are going to be changed.

The difference after the upgrade would be phenomenal. The aircraft would get new radar, new EW suite, new electronics, glass cockpit, digital systems, laser pods, optical systems, new missiles, new bombs, new datalinks, mission computers, helmet mounted displays etc.

A look at the cockpits would tell the story.

Mirage 2000H cockpit.


Mirage 2000-9 cockpit


The newer Mirages would be comparable to F-16 block 52 in some aspects and actually exceed them in some others. We will be getting ASRAAM missiles also along with MICA missiles. The RDY-2 radar is also much more capable than the APG-68 radar on the F16s.

The Mirages will have the most precise bombing capability after the upgrade in India. They will also be able to engage aerial targets and will service the air force up to 2030.

 

[Storm Force]

The only reason the IAF have not ordered more MIRAGE fighters is because they are about to sign for 126 rafales

The french fighter came top on a 2 years competition including 6 months flight trials beating off ALL THE WORLDS TOP 4th generation fighters .

INCIDENTALLY THE F16/60 came BOTTOM IN INDIAN MMRCA competition.

And TO PROVE THE INDIANS arent deciding on politics but purely capability since the F16/60 AND F18/SH lost MMRCA india has ordered $20 bilion of USA military hardware

CV17 GLOBEMASTERS C130 TRANSPORTS P8S POSEDION MARITIME APACHE GUN SHPS & ENGINES FOR TEJAS ...

 

[Skull and Bones]

INCIDENTALLY THE F16/60 came BOTTOM IN INDIAN MMRCA competition.

Actually Gripen came in the bottom, followed by F-16 blk-60.

 

[Mav3rick]

The claim of obtaining 50 jets from China on an emergency basis was never confirmed. Your own people question it. Officially only 2 squadrons of Jf17 are operational, I said three because some members say that 3 have been raised.

China promised 50 Jets on an emergency basis, is there any doubt on that? Of delivery, I am not sure and quite certainly neither is anyone else. And 2 squadrons were raised in 2011.....what were the factories doing in 2012? I can only logically conclude that we should have over 5 squadrons. However, there is no word beyond the 2 squadrons.

About the mirage Rose upgrades, can you please tell me which BVR A2A missile are they using?

Not sure which BVR missile they use, most likely AIM-120C & SD-10 have been integrated as those are the BVR Missiles that we hold in inventory.

JFT Blk II specs were discussed on this very forum by your own compatriots. As far as I know, the only upgrades were increasing the Radar range by 20 km and introducing an IRST. If you know of anything else, please enlighten me. I said "almost zero", not zero.
Please back your rubbish claim of IAF's kill probability being lower with a source. It is these kind of things you pakistanis invent when you find it hard to accept reality.

Increase in Radar range is applicable on even the first JFT and so is the introduction of IRST without hard modifications (soft mods). They do not make a new Block, the newer blocks are supposed to carry western radars and avionics, use composites and RAM coatings, be powered by a more powerful engine (perhaps even TVC engine) etc., which upgrade to be part of which block is yet to be ascertained.

My claim was not of IAF kill probability but the kill probability of Russian BVR's in use of IAF, '0' Russian BVR's have engaged a target successfully in combat after over a dozen engagements.

Again your last paragraph shows your frustration and inability to accept a fact.

If you believe that an MKI can take on an F-15 such as an F-15SE....well, I won't even waste my time there.

You're taking clean RCS, RCS of loaded F-16 or JF-17 will be very close to 5 sq m. And you're negating the role of jammers, ECMs in an aircraft.

But simultaneously, a loaded MKI will be an even bigger RCS signal which could be traced even farther away. And PAF will enjoy the jammers/ecm's and ew suites that will be available within Pakistani airspace such as AWACS and EW/ECM/ECCM assets on the ground plus SAM sites.

 

[Skull and Bones]

But simultaneously, a loaded MKI will be an even bigger RCS signal which could be traced even farther away. And PAF will enjoy the jammers/ecm's and ew suites that will be available within Pakistani airspace such as AWACS and EW/ECM/ECCM assets on the ground plus SAM sites.

Not denying that, but why'd you think Su-30MKI will intrude into Pakistani territory? For strike mission and to take out vital ground target of course, do you agree?

 

[KRAIT]

The only reason the IAF have not ordered more MIRAGE fighters is because they are about to sign for 126 rafales

After performance of Mirages in Kargil, IAF wanted more but its production was stopped because of Rafale, as it was the better. That's why India opened MMRCA.

 

[Mav3rick]

I don't know from where Pakistan gets so many missiles and rockets? It defies all the logical boundaries of science for such a small nation.

When we talk about Iron Dome, they'll launch thousands of artillery projectiles to defy it, and hundreds of ballistic missiles costing millions each to defy our ABM.

Maybe they should do a reality check with their military officials, the facts might baffle them.

We honestly do not wish to discuss the ABM evading capabilities of our newer missiles that are stealthy enough to hide from radars for most of their path and can continuously change their path to avoid ABM systems and path correction even in scramjet terminal speeds. We also do not wish to discuss the tactics such as use of MIRV warheads and Dummy warheads in a single Missile that can overwhelm even the most smartest and sophisticated ABM systems.

One word again. Jammers

Ah yeah....the Jammers that could not jam their own outdated 50's era SAM systems of the Georgian Air Defense.