How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[notorious_eagle]

sorri to brust your bubble its not that easy sir ...do you know why ? well to start with Phalcon can jam almost entire so called air born radars or say can make them malfunction now dont ask me how as im not very technical person u could take darkies advice on that or some other + SU30 MKI will not come like as happned in 65 or 71 now ab hum inspector jara dooje kism ke hain

baki aap chahen to nazar andaz ker den per bhai ji maybe youve heared of a thing called constant upgradetion

I have just highlighted the parts of what you just wrote, i honestly cannot stop laughing after reading this. The Phalcon can jam an AESA AWAC radar , sure buddy best of luck with that. You make an audacious claim but than you say that you cannot back it up, you do realize this makes you sound extremely dumb and stupid. If you make a claim, you need to back it up. If you cannot, 'Silence is Golden'.

No force can hold it's addition of force multiplier just because of the fear that the opposition also might
acquire it, in our case we had to think about not only Pakistan but China also.and this awac of your's will be extremely vulnerable due it's lack of strategic depth, iaf awac could operate deep inside Indian territory and still maintain battle space management due to it's bigger radar range..in offensive role where awac coverage would be limited or non existent iaf mki radar advantage is still useful.

You do make an excellent point here. You are bang on spot in stating that IAF had to take PLAF into consideration. There is no doubt that for the IAF to fight a behemoth like the PLAF, she definitely needs AWAC especially one as capable as PLAF. But i was talking in terms of Indo-Pak scenario so hope that you got the gist of my argument.

PAF has calculated these threats and there is enough real estate for PAF to safely operate these planes. They don't need to fly West-East, they can fly North-South. Also, keep in mind that downing an AWAC is no joke as it is incorporated with a comprehensive self protection package.

 

[Mujraparty]

The BARS Radar of SU30MKI was itself the most potent weapon in the arsenal of the IAF. It allowed the IAF to look deep into Pakistan's airspace without PAF even knowing. F16's only had capable radars in the form of APG-66 but they were quite primitive compared to the PESA radar of SU30MKI. PAF did have ground based radars but they are static and more vulnerable to SEAD strikes compared to a manoeuvrable aerial platform like an AWAC.

PAF since the 1980's had been trying to acquire an AWAC from the West but the request was constantly turned down in fear that it will affect the equilibrium. After the IAF signed the deal to acquire the Phalcons, PAF was able to make her case infront of the West and purchase Erieye from Swedan with American acquiescence. The introduction of AWACs changes the balance of power in favour of PAF because it allows the PAF to see every Indian asset in the air either flying high or low from stand off ranges. PAF does not has to upgrade each and every one of her fighters with an AESA or PESA radar. All she needs to do is data link them through the AWACS which gives these fighters a comprehensive view of the battlefield.

It is because of this, the biggest advantage of the SU30MKI has been robbed off it. Now the JF17 or even an F7PG can see the SU30MKI at the same time the SU30MKI will detect the opposing aircraft. In the past, the SU30MKI could paint the opposing aircraft and fire a salvo of BVR missiles even before the opposing side would be aware of SU30MKI's presence. Now, its going to be an even level playing field. So please tell me, angoor kaisay khatain hain

but then you have to bring china into the scene , Phalcon's gave IAF similar capability against china , and it was only time when PAF had access to Chinese AWACS .

 

[GURU DUTT]

I have just highlighted the parts of what you just wrote, i honestly cannot stop laughing after reading this. The Phalcon can jam an AESA AWAC radar , sure buddy best of luck with that. You make an audacious claim but than you say that you cannot back it up, you do realize this makes you sound extremely dumb and stupid. If you make a claim, you need to back it up. If you cannot, 'Silence is Golden'.

sirji kya karen hum hai hi aise

allbatta Phalcon realli can do a lot of damage to your airborn radars well if not compleatli partialli it can and in a theater like owrs where we will be havving massive force in shape of SU30+ M2K+MIG29(with there net centrik capability & electronik warfare & jamming power ) i bet on it that they will be more than hand full for PAF but well jaisa aapko theek lage

 

[GURU DUTT]

I have just highlighted the parts of what you just wrote, i honestly cannot stop laughing after reading this. The Phalcon can jam an AESA AWAC radar , sure buddy best of luck with that. You make an audacious claim but than you say that you cannot back it up, you do realize this makes you sound extremely dumb and stupid. If you make a claim, you need to back it up. If you cannot, 'Silence is Golden'.



You do make an excellent point here. You are bang on spot in stating that IAF had to take PLAF into consideration. There is no doubt that for the IAF to fight a behemoth like the PLAF, she definitely needs AWAC especially one as capable as PLAF. But i was talking in terms of Indo-Pak scenario so hope that you got the gist of my argument.

PAF has calculated these threats and there is enough real estate for PAF to safely operate these planes. They don't need to fly West-East, they can fly North-South. Also, keep in mind that downing an AWAC is no joke as it is incorporated with a comprehensive self protection package.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...hould-counter-su-30-mki-76.html#ixzz2Gi2hA6Xc


well as i said before we have kept sepparate provisions for eastern sector

 

[Mav3rick]

If you want to restrict the discussion to current inventory, lets us just stick to it. Currently PAF has three squadrons of JF17, 4 of F16. Rest all the aircraft in PAF arsenal are old third gen aircrafts with no BVR capability. Even in fourth gen, only 18 F16s have BVR capability and S10 integration on JF17 is not confirmed and has been questioned by your own compatriots.

I am not sure how many squadrons of JFT we currently have, technically it should be over 5 as China offered 50 JFT's on urgent basis last year. Most of the F-16's have received MLU in Turkey, the procurement and upgrade process was initiated back in 2005/06. Even our Mirages and F-7xx's can fire BVR missiles (mirages after the ROSE upgrades).

Currently IAF is equipped with 8 squadrons of Su-30 MKI, which is more than a match for 7 squadrons of Jf17 and F16 combined. How can you say that JF17 is just starting to develop, when JF17 Blk II is already out and it came with almost zero upgrades, only Blk III is left now. MLU's won't take place before 15 years. No one is saying that India will keep nothing in reserve for china, however we can mobilise all our Su30s to Pakistan border and leave the rest for china if need arises. People need to understand how much this aircraft brings to the table, a single Su30MKI can carry as much weapons as 4 Jf17s and cruise through whole of pakistan, and then come back, and land in India. Its no joke that it defeated F15 during CI-2004

MKI may be a match for JFT & F-16's 1:1 and without support on neutral ground but when you throw things such as AWACS/SAM Systems/Ground based EW systems then things change drastically.

Where did you read that JFT Bl-II has been released to production? And if there are ZERO upgrades then how can it be a BL-II?? MLU's have almost been completed. And finally, an MKI has to carry 2-3 times the weapons load of a JFT/F-16 because of reliability of the weapons it carries and the problems with the radar guiding these weapons. The reliability of IAF BVR's is seriously discredited and in reality they have a kill probability under 20% where as the BVR's carried by PAF have a kill probability over 80%. In essence, MKI has to fire 4 BVR missiles to match the kill probability of a single launch from JFT/F-16.

And lets not talk about the mock exercises where you wanted so many things out of the equation. In real combat, an F-15 pair would eat the MKI before the MKI can even detect an F-15 pair.

 

[Mav3rick]

well pakistani members are going gaga over the so called AWACS backed JF17s but are theynot forgetting whats on indian side well to start with owr lets assume 3 greenpines and two aerostats cover whole pakistani air space coupled withy worlds most advanced (wich big daddy china wanted but count get) THE PHALCON(which will cover all pakistani airspace and a bit more while flying almost 60 km inside India ) NOW SAY 190 su30 & 45m2k +45mig 29 ugrd +say 90 odd bisons as point defence to give back up (not talkin about Rafales)against pakistan will Field say 150 JF17 + 80 blok 52 F16 + 3 awacs and a hand ful of F7 well think twice asIAF will not be fielding onli russian BVRs onli we have some french and israeli hardware also

Point is pakistan cannot counter IAF but as they say dushman ko kabhi kamzor nahi samjhna chahiye and it applies to both sides enjoy

I don't think any country would take the chance of flying their AWACS assets just 60km's within their border, I am sure PAF AWACS will be flying as far away from Indian border as possible. Most probably hundreds of km's away in a spot where they can be useful within Pakistani air space. You do realize that AWACS will be the primary targets of both air forces in case of war?

 

[Babbar-Khalsa]

Sure. Its a cat and mouse game, one side acquires a piece of hardware and the other acquires a deterrent to counter it.



Both sides would be fully aware of each others intentions considering how extensive the radar network is for both the foes. IAF shot itself in the foot the day it went to order the Phalcon AWACS, it robbed a massive advantage the IAF had over the PAF.



Looking at the numbers and the constraints, it does not appear that numerical superiority exist. IAF has to cover her flanks, and than perform 3 roles to implement her strategy. That itself robs her off her numerical superiority. PAF needs 350 4th Generation Aircrafts to effectively tame an IAF onslaught. It appears that they are heading exactly over there.



Why are you lying friend? A simple Google search will reveal your duplicity.

"The IAF would be participating in the exercise with eight SU-30 MK-I aircraft, two IL-78 air to air refuellers and one IL-76 transport aircraft. The contingent would comprise 156 personnel below officers rank and 91 officers (inclusive of 10 members of ‘Garud’ IAF Special Force team). The contingent is being led by Gp Capt D Chaudhury and Exercise Coordinator would be Gp Capt Ajay Rathore."

Press Information Bureau English Releases

If not this, a picture is worth a thousand words. These are SU30MKI's.

File:SU-30 MKI Idaho.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



It is because your fellow Indian brethren stuck to their rigid attitude and failed to listen to reason and argument. They started attacking @Teeta personally instead of his/her arguments, this is why it evoked a furious response from Teeta. So instead of pointing fingers, have a look at the posts of your fellow Indian brethren. They are still under the spell that SU30MKI is God's Gift to Aviation and the greatest fighter aircraft ever built. A dose of reality hurts their ego and that is when the start posting jingoistic remarks and personally attacking other posters.

first , how do you think that adding AWACS was a negative thing for IAF ? And what advantage did IAF had over PAF before adding AWAC ? An answer with facts explained would be appreciated.

Second , I dont know who started first ..but i never talked to Teeta in the langauge he was talking to me . Check all the posts that Teeta has replied to me and mine replies to him and you will know the truth . If he was counterattacking to other people , why he chose to start with me ?

This is a Pakistani site which i joined thinking that there would be some unbiased and mature discussions , but if people like Teeta are there , then its highly impossible. I have seen this much on you tube.

Lastly , compare your post with Teeta's and you will understand the difference.

 

[Babbar-Khalsa]

I am not sure how many squadrons of JFT we currently have, technically it should be over 5 as China offered 50 JFT's on urgent basis last year. Most of the F-16's have received MLU in Turkey, the procurement and upgrade process was initiated back in 2005/06. Even our Mirages and F-7xx's can fire BVR missiles (mirages after the ROSE upgrades).






MKI may be a match for JFT & F-16's 1:1 and without support on neutral ground but when you throw things such as AWACS/SAM Systems/Ground based EW systems then things change drastically.

Where did you read that JFT Bl-II has been released to production? And if there are ZERO upgrades then how can it be a BL-II?? MLU's have almost been completed. And finally, an MKI has to carry 2-3 times the weapons load of a JFT/F-16 because of reliability of the weapons it carries and the problems with the radar guiding these weapons. The reliability of IAF BVR's is seriously discredited and in reality they have a kill probability under 20% where as the BVR's carried by PAF have a kill probability over 80%. In essence, MKI has to fire 4 BVR missiles to match the kill probability of a single launch from JFT/F-16.

And lets not talk about the mock exercises where you wanted so many things out of the equation. In real combat, an F-15 pair would eat the MKI before the MKI can even detect an F-15 pair.

Regarding your kill ratio thing ....do you have facts ? when was this exercise done ?

Also , F-15s radar is at most matching to MKI and thus there is no early detection advantage.

I don't think any country would take the chance of flying their AWACS assets just 60km's within their border, I am sure PAF AWACS will be flying as far away from Indian border as possible. Most probably hundreds of km's away in a spot where they can be useful within Pakistani air space. You do realize that AWACS will be the primary targets of both air forces in case of war?

agreed. Point well taken.

 

[Mav3rick]

Regarding your kill ratio thing ....do you have facts ? when was this exercise done ?

Also , F-15s radar is at most matching to MKI and thus there is no early detection advantage.

You can browse through the earlier posts, I wasn't speaking of exercises but actual combat in which BVR have been used. Russian BVR's have 0 hits after multiple dozen engagements while US BVR's have over 80% kill probability in over a dozen engagements. Even the AIM-9 WVR Missile was the trendsetter and benchmark for the Russians.

 

[Srinivas]

Every fighter jet take off and Landing inside Pakistan can be monitored by AWACS so adv IAF.

 

[Babbar-Khalsa]

You can browse through the earlier posts, I wasn't speaking of exercises but actual combat in which BVR have been used. Russian BVR's have 0 hits after multiple dozen engagements while US BVR's have over 80% kill probability in over a dozen engagements. Even the AIM-9 WVR Missile was the trendsetter and benchmark for the Russians.

The pity is that Russian pilots never had a chance to fight the US pilots in direct combat . Though they got the chance in Korean wars and inflicted heavy casualities to US . But they were in disguise , they had to speak in Korean and use only Korean equipment . Still they were formidable.

Whatever US has scored , it has been mainly on inexperinced IRAQI , Korean and vietnemease pilots .So there is no comparision.

Would like to mention that IAF doesnot only have Russian tech , it does also have French( Mirage-200) ,Rafale( to be inducted), Isralie radars , Bristish-French Jaguar and many more .

The BVR capability of Mirage is well known (seen in Arab-Israel war) where the small but well trained Israel Mirages destroyed the whole fleet of Arab nations and achieved total air supremacy .

Even Pakistan has some earlier versions of Mirage . Now don't say that Mirage-2000 doesnot have good BVR capability .

 

[Hasnain2009]

The Shaheen-2 would be blown up in atmosphere if it takes that much time to reach East India. But let me assure you that after this act , the barrage of Prithvi and Agni would do in-comparable damage within 11 minutes.



If i am wrong , then please enlighten me.

My friend, i m not talking about how much time it would travel in air over india. I m considering the time to refuel it and the time it will take to install warheads etc.

 

[GURU DUTT]

I don't think any country would take the chance of flying their AWACS assets just 60km's within their border, I am sure PAF AWACS will be flying as far away from Indian border as possible. Most probably hundreds of km's away in a spot where they can be useful within Pakistani air space. You do realize that AWACS will be the primary targets of both air forces in case of war?

Thats exactly my point but i guess im not that good in putting it like you sir but never the less its here the indian supremecy comes in as even with just 60 km buffer zone we are far more well protected than what PAF can bost of within there territory until there is some internal sabotage but i guess we have taken that aswell into account p.s (as Phalcon wont be flying alone &for ground garud & some dedicated SF's) + all AA batteries and the power of Phalcon as it has bigger and more powerfull radar & some classified stuff(which your eyewire can onli dream of) so in short your so called AWACS wont do much good as i wont be surprised if the indian's fielding there awacs killers here as SU 30 MKI can take more load than say two JF-17's so go figure

My friend, i m not talking about how much time it would travel in air over india. I m considering the time to refuel it and the time it will take to install warheads etc.

sir ji with deu respects i guess pakistanies are ignoaring indian Bhramos + other ACML's (russian & french +israeli) and tell me how much time a bhramos will take to say strik all your air force bases as all within its reach not talkin about the air launched version yet

 

[posedion]

People of India Pakistan should counter their current political mafia which is ruling them if not don't worry there wont anything worth to fight for

 

[Contrarian]

The only problem is you are only comparing bird to bird. That itself is the fallacy in your perception. So what if India is replacing MIG21's with SU30MKI, it will only be a problem for PAF if its sending the JF17's to fight them 1 on 1. But fortunately, aerial warfare is not fought 1 on 1 between birds. There are a whole set of other factors that come into play that can change the face of the aerial warfare.

It are only fanboys whom look at fancy new birds and start comparing their specs with other birds. But a real war is fought by keeping multiple factors in mind backed up by a multi layered comprehensive strategy. It is not just the aerial birds that the pilot has to worry about but what about the threat from the ground. What if the enemy pilot forces you to drop down to 1000 ft and let his hidden gunners on the ground slaughter you in the air.

Looking at the stance of Indian Air Head Quarters, it appears that they are not confident of downing the PAF in their prescribed strategy. This is why they haven't itched to fight it out, and that is why they are adding additional hardware to counter PAF's improvement in her gaps.

Numerical superiority does not exist in Indo-Pak warfare. For argument sakes, lets say that IAF intends to field 750 fighters against PAF's 350. First of all, IAF is not going to throw up all her birds in the air and attack PAF in massive formations as seen in World War 2. In today's modern warfare, strike packages are the name of the game and the question is how many strike packages can the IAF afford to send. That being said, IAF needs to insert atleast 2-3 squadrons near her border against China to protect her flank. Great AF's operate under the doctrine of not what the intention of the enemy is but what the enemy is capable of. After that, IAF needs to split up her forces into Air Defence, Air Superiority and Close Air Support. Where exactly is the numerical superiority

I am indeed comparing the systems against each other - Pakistan having very small depth, very few AF bases, very low SAM systems is very likely to be bombarded by CM's in the first day of hostilities. SAM coverage is of prime importance here.

Pakistani bases are likely to be degraded as soon as war starts. On top of that if you have a foe that wields far bigger numbers is more than likely to overwhelm your defences within a short span of time.

India is not half as vulnerable as Pakistan to these threats - not only are very good SAM's being procured and in good numbers, the bases are spread out, and present in the heartland of India. Even when these bases are targeted the defence is good in depth and assets to be fielded spread out. Not the very least is the fact that to achieve the same level of degradation effect on IAF, Pakistan has to fire multiple times the number of missiles that India has to, for the same effect, just on account of bigger assets. Secondly the CM's themselves will be intercepted at a rate greater than Pakistan does.