How much of Pakistani culture is Indian?

[SQ8]

Identity crisis takes a toll Joe Sir. Hindus population decreasing in Pakistan is something they feel proud of. The whole world knows about Upanishads and Vedas but for some it doesn't matter. They call themselves IVC holder, Muslims that ruled India and what not.

Ask any Arab or Persian and they can answer what the reality is. In this land of India, Jainism and most importantly Buddhism flourished.

The ownership would have no issue.. had they accepted that they have a common bond with India.. that there are aspect of cultural commonality. But to say that you own IVC and then deny any roots to it.. mindboggling to say the least.
Either say that there is nothing in common.. yes.. the IVC was part of this land that we now own.. but we have changed the texture of the lands culture..
But then.. all the colors, singing and dancing have to go out the window.. since those raags and taals that the likes of Ghulam Ali and even a musically inept Atif Aslam quote are all taken from the roots of the same culture..(Hinduism the Culture..not Hinduism the religion) . The dresses too.. there is nothing Islamic(nor for any dress in that matter but for arguments sake) about the Shalwar Qameez.. which is a dress coming up through the ages through Punjab and from the old..
And This list could go on and on on and on.

The identity that was there to be established .. has been lost after the uneducated took over the reigns of this nation..
the identity that began with the likes of the State of Hyd Deccan... the communities that lived in the cities of North Western and South Western India.. where art ,science and history were being propagated.. all lost to a feudal lord and his shallow need for just land and power...


Perhaps its Pakistan's loss.. that the actual learning centre's for Muslims in India.. remained there.. places like Aligarh and Osmania University.. where its faculty migrated.. they never reformed to provide a beacon of idealogical leadership.
When there were no learned men to lead this ideology.. then it was convenient for quasi-scholar-quacks like maududi to come in and lay rape to the concept that was Pakistan.

 

[Manas]

But you continue to worship rats and snakes. Thus alienating us.

You make a big claim that we are basically the same, but many tribes are not the same, nor do they respect tribes in India.

HaHA , FUNNY you say that because its also true pakiastanis don't respect other pakistanis .
Most are busy claiming to be offspring's of the Arabs, Turkish moghuls or Persians .Fake histrory writing also helps this cause.

But in this age of internet,this propaganda is slowly falling apart and pakistanis are increasing getting disillusioned with this fake history and fake identity manufactured solely justify TNT and the creation of pakistan.
An unposted letter to PM Singh | DAWN.COM

 

[vsdoc]

Perhaps its Pakistan's loss.. that the actual learning centre's for Muslims in India.. remained there.. places like Aligarh and Osmania University.. where its faculty migrated.. they never reformed to provide a beacon of idealogical leadership.
When there were no learned men to lead this ideology.. then it was convenient for quasi-scholar-quacks like maududi to come in and lay rape to the concept that was Pakistan.

Without men, the ideology dies or mutates environmentally.

And institutions become aggregates of bricks and lime and mortar.

You do not have an excuse there.

If anyone lost out, it was our Muslim population left without a head, and a tail that till today has struggled to grow a head.

 

[SQ8]

If you are talking about gymnastic type yoga you are right but if you talk about original yoga that originated in Indian subcontinent, muslims cant do it.

Real Yoga means unity of Aatma with Shiva through asana, mantras & breath controls.
Even the basic of Yoga .i.e. Suryanamaskara or Sun Salvation demands to worshipp Sun (Surya) as God.

Doesnt Islam forbids worshipping Shiva & Surya ??

Islam allows for adapting something good.. Allah is not a bureaucrat.
You dont have to praise any other god.
There is already something in Islam called Zikr.. in which you recite the name and praise of Allah in a practice somewhat similar to the Mantras..
so its easy.. adapt it.. I do breathing exercises.. and where there was a sound that resembled "Om"..which was to be done repeatedly.. I replaced it with Allah.. equally effective.

Point being.. if you are going to insist that the only way to play cricket is through the test format then thats your choice.
sure that may be the original format.. but its not the only way to get to a place.

Without men, the ideology dies or mutates environmentally.

And institutions become aggregates of bricks and lime and mortar.

You do not have an excuse there.

If anyone lost out, it was our Muslim population left without a head, and a tail that till today has struggled to grow a head.

yes I do.. these men never formed a leadership here either..
and you are familiar enough with Pakistans early years to know the sort that ruled the roost to continue harping on the tone of all is bad.

 

[kumarkumar1867]

we actually are victims from the beginning of evolution of human race there is no question about it.

Over Statement ... !!

Woman are not victims since evolution they are victim since wars were invented & human started race of superiority of race & religions.

 

[Jackdaws]

I would love to see you do that in front of a Purist hindu.. he'd probably cast you out.
The Saints that converted Indians did so my using the mediums that were common.. they did not reject Music,Singing or whatever aspects outright.. but rather found ways to use .. those cultural aspects of then India.. to transmit the message of Islam through
those mediums. And they had unprecedented success.. all over.. not just confined to a single Indian race.

As for the second part.. who told you that? under what authority.. what logic?

What is a purist Hindu? A Hindu would say a Muslim prayer or a Christian one and still can't be cast out. There is no ex-communication.

 

[vsdoc]

yes I do.. these men never formed a leadership here either..
and you are familiar enough with Pakistans early years to know the sort that ruled the roost to continue harping on the tone of all is bad.

If they did not, that has nothing to do with us.

They got what they wanted. And had always been the privileged and blessed.

Compared to that, I believe what our Muslims did achieve, they did in spite of the disadvantages they started out with.

Frankly, besides AMU, most of us would gift you those institutions via legally binding charter if we could. Free.

 

[KRAIT]

The ownership would have no issue.. had they accepted that they have a common bond with India.. that there are aspect of cultural commonality. But to say that you own IVC and then deny any roots to it.. mindboggling to say the least.

That quote was for ignorant people. I don't say we own IVC, but I want to tell that labeling as their own for the sake of having show off is idiotic. No one owns a civilization.

In further posts I have explained the reason of difference in cultures. Have told the factors behind it and explained a few.

 

[SQ8]

That quote was for ignorant people. I don't say we own IVC, but I want to tell that labeling as their own for the sake of having show off is idiotic. No one owns a civilization.

In further posts I have explained the reason of difference in cultures. Have told the factors behind it and explained a few.

but then again.. ignorance is bliss.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The ownership would have no issue.. had they accepted that they have a common bond with India.. that there are aspect of cultural commonality. But to say that you own IVC and then deny any roots to it.. mindboggling to say the least.
Either say that there is nothing in common.. yes.. the IVC was part of this land that we now own.. but we have changed the texture of the lands culture..
But then.. all the colors, singing and dancing have to go out the window.. since those raags and taals that the likes of Ghulam Ali and even a musically inept Atif Aslam quote are all taken from the roots of the same culture..(Hinduism the Culture..not Hinduism the religion) . The dresses too.. there is nothing Islamic(nor for any dress in that matter but for arguments sake) about the Shalwar Qameez.. which is a dress coming up through the ages through Punjab and from the old..
And This list could go on and on on and on.

The identity that was there to be established .. has been lost after the uneducated took over the reigns of this nation..
the identity that began with the likes of the State of Hyd Deccan... the communities that lived in the cities of North Western and South Western India.. where art ,science and history were being propagated.. all lost to a feudal lord and his shallow need for just land and power...


Perhaps its Pakistan's loss.. that the actual learning centre's for Muslims in India.. remained there.. places like Aligarh and Osmania University.. where its faculty migrated.. they never reformed to provide a beacon of idealogical leadership.
When there were no learned men to lead this ideology.. then it was convenient for quasi-scholar-quacks like maududi to come in and lay rape to the concept that was Pakistan.

What you are talking about in this comment has very little to do with the awful stuff I have witnessed in earlier comments.

First, regarding this utterly stupid competition that flares up from time to time about the "ownership" of the IVC. Nobody owns the Civilisation, the culture. Nobody can own something dead and gone, 3300 years ago. Pakistan owns some of the ruins, the most well excavated ones. India owns a few of the ruins. Each side can at best sell tickets to these ruins. For either side to claim the legacy of the whole is incredibly stupid, yet we have shambling near Mongoloids claim that their side owns the legacy entirely.

I have a blood pressure problem and it has got worse.

Your point about the specific cultural aspects, the unique things, is understandable but askew. What was imbibed was not imbibed in any harmful way. It happened. What was imbibed in the region that is now Pakistan is surely either largely intact, or is giving way as more and more people accept yet another import which they consider more pious.

On the other hand, those cultural centres "left behind" are hardly lifeless, nor are they transmuting into Hindu institutions. They are alive and well. They are flourishing, in fact.

Islam allows for adapting something good.. Allah is not a bureaucrat.
You dont have to praise any other god.
There is already something in Islam called Zikr.. in which you recite the name and praise of Allah in a practice somewhat similar to the Mantras..
so its easy.. adapt it.. I do breathing exercises.. and where there was a sound that resembled "Om"..which was to be done repeatedly.. I replaced it with Allah.. equally effective.

Point being.. if you are going to insist that the only way to play cricket is through the test format then thats your choice.
sure that may be the original format.. but its not the only way to get to a place.



yes I do.. these men never formed a leadership here either..
and you are familiar enough with Pakistans early years to know the sort that ruled the roost to continue harping on the tone of all is bad.

I could not agree with you more.

 

[Jade]

The ownership would have no issue.. had they accepted that they have a common bond with India.. that there are aspect of cultural commonality. But to say that you own IVC and then deny any roots to it.. mindboggling to say the least.
Either say that there is nothing in common.. yes.. the IVC was part of this land that we now own.. but we have changed the texture of the lands culture..
But then.. all the colors, singing and dancing have to go out the window.. since those raags and taals that the likes of Ghulam Ali and even a musically inept Atif Aslam quote are all taken from the roots of the same culture..(Hinduism the Culture..not Hinduism the religion) . The dresses too.. there is nothing Islamic(nor for any dress in that matter but for arguments sake) about the Shalwar Qameez.. which is a dress coming up through the ages through Punjab and from the old..
And This list could go on and on on and on.

The identity that was there to be established .. has been lost after the uneducated took over the reigns of this nation..
the identity that began with the likes of the State of Hyd Deccan... the communities that lived in the cities of North Western and South Western India.. where art ,science and history were being propagated.. all lost to a feudal lord and his shallow need for just land and power...


Perhaps its Pakistan's loss.. that the actual learning centre's for Muslims in India.. remained there.. places like Aligarh and Osmania University.. where its faculty migrated.. they never reformed to provide a beacon of idealogical leadership.
When there were no learned men to lead this ideology.. then it was convenient for quasi-scholar-quacks like maududi to come in and lay rape to the concept that was Pakistan.

As always, pleasure to read your posts

It really mind boggling to see how some Pakistanis go though such pain to deny their past or association with India. So what if there is some association with Indian culture or India, it doesn't make you Indian or any less Pakistani. I some time think that it is Pakistanis than have not yet come to terms with Partition than Indians, as some think.

It is time Pakistanis to start moving forward than dwell in the past.

 

[Manas]

There is one major problem about indians.

They think islam is spread in sub continent by invaders but the reality is islam is spread by sufis and saints.

How come charm of the fir fakir sufi saints disappeared as soon muslim rule eroded with the rise of the Sikhs in punjab and Maraths in central india and totally vanished with advent of the British ??
And new conversion to islam almost died down even areas where Muslim formed the majority population till the creation of pakistan where minorities suffered persecution from the outset of pakistan.

In India conversion to Islam is minuscule in todays age and comparatively Christianity has done much better in this regard among the tribal and dalit section of population. Again the question arises where are faith charmer sufis of Islam ??

On the contrary hinduism and hindu spirituality is strongest than ever and seeks huge appeal in rich prosper land of the West where educated westerners find more meaningful in hinduism and in Hindu Guru who could answers questions their religion own could not and give them peace of mind.

Sri Sri Ravi Shankar ji recieved in Argentina

 

[kumarkumar1867]

Islam allows for adapting something good.. Allah is not a bureaucrat.
You dont have to praise any other god.There is already something in Islam called Zikr.. in which you recite the name and praise of Allah in a practice somewhat similar to the Mantras..

so its easy.. adapt it.. I do breathing exercises.. and where there was a sound that resembled "Om"..which was to be done repeatedly.. I replaced it with Allah.. equally effective.

Point being.. if you are going to insist that the only way to play cricket is through the test format then thats your choice.
sure that may be the original format.. but its not the only way to get to a place.

If you change the rules of Playing cricket it may look like cricket but it will not be a cricket any more.

If you change the God the religion is changed, I see a very good adaption from you regarding Yoga and an intelligent way of replacing Hindu God names or OM by islamic words or sounds for physical benefits but you missed something that completely goes against the definition of real Yoga which means UNION or CONTACT of Aatma with Parmaatma or Brahman or Kundilini jagriti for UNION with Shiva.

No offences please but if someone perform Namaz/Salat with waju & all mandatory body movements like momins do but just replacing Allah in it with some Hindu God...will it be a same Namaz or Salat???

I am afraid it will be just gymnastics or like dance steps loosing the essence of Original act.

Following extract from Wiki may further clear up my point :-

In a general sense, yoga is a disciplined method utilized for attaining a goal.[10] In this sense, the purpose of yoga depends on the philosophical or theological system it is conjugated with. Bhakti schools of Vaishnavism, combine yoga with devotion to enjoy an eternal presence of Vishnu.[13] In Shaiva theology, yoga is used to unite kundalini with Shiva.[14] Mahabharata defines the purpose of yoga as the experience of Brahman or Ātman pervading all things.[15] In the specific sense of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, the purpose of yoga is defined as citta-vṛtti-nirodhaḥ (the cessation of the transformation of awareness).[10] In contemporary times, the physical postures of yoga are used to alleviate health problems, reduce stress and make the spine supple. Yoga is also used as a complete exercise program and physical therapy routine.[16]

Yoga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[vsdoc]

Not to mention that the "Om" chant (like many ancient Avestan chants) has very strong vibrations.

You cannot simply replace it with a version of your belief system and expect it to work.

Man Oscar seriously ...... am sure you were not serious on that one?

Then again, you probably were.

 

[SQ8]

It is time Pakistanis to start moving forward than dwell in the past.

Unfortunately.. that is another problem..
India was as India was defined by Nehru.. and he was around to see it through the foundation years.
The same cannot be said for Pakistan.. Jinnah died..his otherwise scheming but still half-principled deputy assassinated.. the original Muslim League leadership put on the sidelines.. Pakistan never became the Pakistan of M.A Jinnah from the day he died.

Fine.. no problem.. whats been done as been done..
NOW WHAT?..
It is foolish to assume that the Pakistan of Jinnah can ever be dug out or redeemed again.. Its dead.. its gone.. for now until miracles come forth.
Now is the Pakistan we must define today.. and define in identity..
if we wish to take on the identity of Maududi and his inspired religious bigotry then we SHOULD.. if its by popular vote.. then dont feel guilty about it.
If we wish to create a somewhat rightwing feudal democracy then accept it.. instead of trying to justify Islam in it... Islam does not hold any love for feudalism.
If we wish a Military state with an extreme rightwing Shariah compliant dictator and are willing to take the burdens that come with it.
Then so be it.. its by popular demand.. and people should not feel apologetic for who they are.
Those that oppose it .. should learn to adapt to the majority.. or in the words of our erstwhile PM.. "They should leave, who is stopping them".

Dilly dallying over whether we are some Islamic IVC leftover Aryan blooded Afghan Arabs is really not going to take this country anywhere.