How much of Pakistan do the Taliban actually control

[S-2]

"Its not exactly a matter of control as in administration. If Taliban are able to do what they want then its a matter enough for concern.

Yes and herein lies the misunderstanding about the ICOS maps for afghanistan 2008. Many Pakistani posters are invested in American/NATO defeat in Afghanistan. As such, there's a certain eagerness to claim that the taliban control 72% of Afghanistan.

Now what is true is that the taliban have a constant presence in the area and it's heavily to modestly influenced by such.

The intentional dissembling, however, perverts the message to a differing but preferred narrative.

 

[Comet]

Taliban Controlled Area is a lot lot less than the area(Farari Camps) controlled by the OutLaws.

 

[Elmo]

Taliban Controlled Area is a lot lot less than the area(Farari Camps) controlled by the OutLaws.

@ Umairp: "Taliban Controlled Area is a lot lot less than the area (Farari Camps) controlled by the OutLaws"

Just so you know, the Taliban are fighting an ideological war for a theorcratioc state, the nationalists in Balochistan are not fighting that. Secondly Farrari camps, which are run by Baloch nationalists, are scattered in the areas in and around Dera Bugti, Makran, Khuzdar and adjoining areas. They don't control any area whatsoever. They are merely training camps and have no administrative control of any area in the province whatsoever (they are only in Balochistan and in no other province).


What point were you trying to make?

 

[Xeric]

You are amidst your own delusional hubris. Your awakening is upon you. We'll see if you display the same learning and adaptive culture that we have over the last seven years.

Little point to sharing those hard lessons with you though. You seem to have all the answers. Judging by the condition of your country, I can see that matters are well in hand indeed.

well if that is the case and the matters are in hand, then whats the rant about. Enjoy the killing spree!

Moreover we are clearer then ever before, you better wipe off the colorful dirt that cover your eyes, the sooner you realise this the better chance this world have of prospering.

Coming from an officer of any army who's reputation among your own (once) Bengali and Baluchi citizens is heinous,

oh i forgot that i was talking to an officer of a military of execllent repute, before you even think of ranting about you repo, care see around and try to find out how 'blessesd' you and your military is.

Actually i have seen many foreign nationals speaking 'high' of you, so pardon me.

please don't lecture.

Now you are giving my advice back to me, i think you have gone out of words.

You might wipe the undeserved smirk off your face and consider such. Novel idea, eh?

First make your policy makers learn how to lead,show some results,gain some crediability and respect,and then we might allow you to tell us how much strength should we commit.

Remember that when our NVGs show up in your unit arms room. Were it me you'd not receive one penny for your aforementioned reason. If your enemy, your intention isn't their defeat but their deflection back upon Afghanistan. That, of course, makes you an enemy of ISAF.

Had it been upto you Mr S2,the world already had een made hell,thnx to your brillient ideas,emotional approach and single handed approach to deal with every type of threat, the world should have been already sent back to the stone age.

How noble of you to recommend the ues of chemical weapons inside your country,why dont you use it first on your people and set an example,leaving us to follow.

Second you pay us to fight your war-now made our. Did you ever care to give a thought to this opttion: Had you not invaded Afghanistan,you never has to pay us,ist that a better option?

So dont think you are doing some kinda charity,you pay we fight,you dont,go get a life then.

I only await my drunken government awakening to this simple fact. They actually are. What binds us is really Karachi and nothing more. If/when that's gone, the tone and timbre of our relationship will be too.

There are other things that also bind us,had it been so simple,you'd alreay had put your boots on our ground.So dont jump,you need us,for how long i dont know,but for now you definely do.So bear it!

You rant, young artillery officer.

i m proud to be young,you have a guud time in your old-home.

Please wipe your drooling chin.

Lets keep the emotions ut of it,get something to drink,i hope you have your pills near you.Please be careful in this age

You're an emotional mess

Look who is talking...

and a poor example to the men. Please gain control of yourself lest you embarass officers worldwide with your misconduct.

Who are you judge me?

A old lad who has lived up his life and now talk hereoic of his comrades who face death at the battlefield,while he himself sits in his couch and qurrale with the computer.

i bet i have seen more action than you, and know about my men and my respect. The only thng i'll disgrace would be the enemy,so beware.

Your strategists are terribly subtle

Yours were execllent,and it got the entire world behind america's arse.What an acheivemnet,Bravo!

 

[fatman17]

@ Umairp: "Taliban Controlled Area is a lot lot less than the area (Farari Camps) controlled by the OutLaws"

Just so you know, the Taliban are fighting an ideological war for a theorcratioc state, the nationalists in Balochistan are not fighting that. Secondly Farrari camps, which are run by Baloch nationalists, are scattered in the areas in and around Dera Bugti, Makran, Khuzdar and adjoining areas. They don't control any area whatsoever. They are merely training camps and have no administrative control of any area in the province whatsoever (they are only in Balochistan and in no other province).


What point were you trying to make?[/QUOTE]

here's another point - are we talking physical control of Pakistan or the hearts and minds type of control!

 

[pakomar]

To S-2
If you think US troops are so capable then show Pakistan army by sealing the borders from your side. If your side of border is sealed by NATO then complain to Pakistan army. Fighters are coming for Afghanistan to Pakistan.
Problem is Taliban and afghani are crossing border and destabilizing Pakistan. The same government of Taliban we saw in Afghanistan is now operation in Pakistan .now Taliban are making their government in Pakistan and killing innocent Pakistani’s just because US did n t block their retreat .

 

[pakomar]

Whats your point?
US cares about its citizens more than Pakistan cares for its own?
US govt and armed forces took care or acted in a way that the threat to their nation can be removed.
Should we expect similar actions from Pakistan's army?

Pakistan consider US its friend and helping them. If US act selfishly then Pakistan quit helping US because in this so called war on terror Pakistan blooding. 9/11 is a small preview as compare to what Pakistani and Pakistan army facing today.

 

[Comet]

@ Umairp: "Taliban Controlled Area is a lot lot less than the area (Farari Camps) controlled by the OutLaws"

Just so you know, the Taliban are fighting an ideological war for a theorcratioc state, the nationalists in Balochistan are not fighting that. Secondly Farrari camps, which are run by Baloch nationalists, are scattered in the areas in and around Dera Bugti, Makran, Khuzdar and adjoining areas. They don't control any area whatsoever. They are merely training camps and have no administrative control of any area in the province whatsoever (they are only in Balochistan and in no other province).


What point were you trying to make?

Actually the ferari camps are those areas where law in order is unseen.
No law inforcement agency can go there and enforce law. Similarly no Lawinforcement agency can go into taliban controlled area and enforce law. the difference is that taliban control parts where there is public and feraris live in mountains.
In both the cases, the government of Pakistan has no controll. It has been like this from years. Only now we have realized the dangers of such places.

I am trying to say that we should focus on the problem at the fundamental level. How are these people getting amo? who supllies them and how can we stop them? Why there are parts of Pakistan where there is no Government rule? How long would it go like this?

 

[fatman17]

To S-2
If you think US troops are so capable then show Pakistan army by sealing the borders from your side. If your side of border is sealed by NATO then complain to Pakistan army. Fighters are coming for Afghanistan to Pakistan.
Problem is Taliban and afghani are crossing border and destabilizing Pakistan. The same government of Taliban we saw in Afghanistan is now operation in Pakistan .now Taliban are making their government in Pakistan and killing innocent Pakistani’s just because US did n t block their retreat .

why? because we gave them a safe haven? and that was the start of all our problems (since 2001)lets not blame everyone for our problems - a bit of self-critique would do us well!

 

[Xeric]

Somebody was talking about sealing the borders here, i had replied to a similar confusion somewhere else, so also sharing it here:

Two months to reach that western border and do what armies of prudent countries do when nations adjacent to them are at war-seal their borders

S-2 sometimes you really talk as if you were born yesterday(no offence), but that's how it is.

Seal the border, Ok, if you think that you have given us a superb advice then you are mistaken!

We are and were very willing to close the borders, but how?

It is not a border between South and North Dakota, that you tie a knot behind a snail's ** and let it move and by the end of the day you have a demarcated border.

It is 2,640 kilometers (oh sorry yanks dont understand KMs-1,610 miles) of rugged mountainous terrain, which, at the first place, is not previously properly marked. Thanks to Mr Durand.

Do you know how much it takes to seal 2640 Kms???

LoC is just 740 km(460 miles) and they have already fenced it, but still complain of border crossings.

About 0.1 million troops are committed from both the side on the LoC, and you suggest us to seal the 2640 kms.

BTW, this doesn't includes the Working Boundary and the Line of Actual Contact. If this is included, the figures go insane!


We dont have electricity for the people and you expect us to power 2640 km of fence with electricity at our own.

Care to ask an indian member how much electricity they are consuming on the LoC?

S-2 i am really impressed by you analytical and strategical thinking!

Oh sorry again, you are the Americans, dollars everywhere, you could even hire others to work for you, it would have been easy for you to say and do, but not for us.

We have been shouting since the start that come on lets fence this damn Durand Line but who would listen, and why would you listen, you want that those who are kicked in Afghanistan should come to this side of the border, so that you have a free run inside Pakistan!

You back patted, babiesh, puppet govt would give us a damn when we ask them to share the expenditure.

Had you been so worried about the influx and egress of those Talibans into Pakistan you would have been more forthcoming.

You knew that we couldn't do it so it was in the plan.

Thanks again

And next time please keep your unworthy advices with you!

And please reply to this only if you have something reasonable to say.
No rant!

 

[S-2]

I didn't demand perfection nor would it require every inch of your border. It should have been clear that neither Chitral nor the far west of Baluchistan would be the center of your problem.

It wasn't your INTENTION to interfere with the taliban's retreat into your lands, was it? You were trying to PRESERVE their force-not destroy it.

Look where you are now. You deserve your misery.

 

[pakomar]

I didn't demand perfection nor would it require every inch of your border. It should have been clear that neither Chitral nor the far west of Baluchistan would be the center of your problem.

It wasn't your INTENTION to interfere with the taliban's retreat into your lands, was it? You were trying to PRESERVE their force-not destroy it.

Look where you are now. You deserve your misery.

Taliban coming form Afghanistan is not our problem. Taliban was living in their land and government their people. Than US boomed them and leave them to retreat to Pakistan so it will become Pakistan problem and Pakistan army soldiers fight them because US do not want to troops in any kind of enemy contact why? Tell you cowardly army to block their retreat.

Mr. If you think Pakistan are preserving Taliban than block their retreat. Pakistan army already blood of US mistakes. In Somalia Pakistan army saved you ***** it’s not going to happen every time. Fight your own war.

 

[Xeric]

I didn't demand perfection nor would it require every inch of your border. It should have been clear that neither Chitral nor the far west of Baluchistan would be the center of your problem.

It wasn't your INTENTION to interfere with the taliban's retreat into your lands, was it? You were trying to PRESERVE their force-not destroy it.

Look where you are now. You deserve your misery.

Come on S-2, don't eat your words now.

You know that it has to cover most of the line if not all of it.

That border was open like a gate no check posts nothing, people only restrict to few pass through areas like Chaman because it is served by a road/track, and believe me talibans dont use roads, they infiltrate, or should io say they don't even like to infiltrate why should they as there was no check, rather i must say they just walk in and out at will, not only they but many INNOCENT peoples.

You must be knowing that a father might have a son on the other side, and a wife might have a husband on this side, again thanks to CIA

2.7 million refugees, remember?

 

[Elmo]

@Omarp: Actually the ferari camps are those areas where law in order is unseen.
No law enforcement agency can go there and enforce law. Similarly no law enforcement agency can go into taliban controlled area and enforce law. the difference is that taliban control parts where there is public and feraris live in mountains.
In both the cases, the government of Pakistan has no control. It has been like this from years. Only now we have realized the dangers of such places.


—I think you are unclear about the term farrari camp. they are not lawless areas, they are camps where militant training is provided. Most commonly used to refer to the training camps run by Baloch nationalists — yet to come across a reference where it has been used for the Taliban. And the camps are constantly shifting. the farraris don't control any area. please give me a reference from where you have derived your definition from.

The need to curb the Baloch insurgency was realised during Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's time only. An army operation was launched in Balochistan in the 1970s.


I am trying to say that we should focus on the problem at the fundamental level. How are these people getting amo? who supllies them and how can we stop them? Why there are parts of Pakistan where there is no Government rule? How long would it go like this?


— Taliban are backed by elements with vested interest in the ominous establishment of the country. Why they are being supported is another debate altogether (in short, retaining the geo-strategic importance of the Pakistan etc etc — too long and off topic to be discussed here).


@fatman17: here's another point - are we talking physical control of Pakistan or the hearts and minds type of control!


— Good question. What is your guesstimate? I'd say the control over the minds is much less than the Taliban's physical control. But then my opinion would probably be heavily biased.

 

[S-2]

You'll look long and hard here to find me endorsing a fence on your border. Nor minefields. Ask Asim. Him and I have discussed this and I've stated my reasons for not doing so.

Try using your army...

Chemical weapons? True dissemblance.

Leaving CS inside a bunker complex causes you a problem? Explain, young and proud artillery officer.

Action? Combat? Your young American artillery officer peers would be the appropriate comparison. Not I. Those officers and troops have developed extensive COIN-related battle experience over the last seven and one-half years covering a wide variety of terrain and combat conditions.

We do strange things like forming provisional rifle platoons that patrol neighborhoods while simultaneously securing our guns and providing indirect fires. Not all fires need be kinetic, btw, in COIN to be of assistance. Please read-

Mike Battery Lights Up the Night

"When not firing the cannons, the Marines with Mike Battery provide security, assist the Iraqi Police and help with rebuilding the infrastructure in Rutbah. So far, the unit has been able to fire their Howitzers more than 20 times this deployment for the purpose of night operation illumination, and they look forward to it each time."

Just doin' what the guns can to help the grunts and M.P.s. Hopefully, you will too.

Artillery has to reinvent itself in COIN to retain relevance. You don't sit off on the side, I hope, and await the next go-around with the Indians. Of course, what would these lowly marine artillery reservists from Chattanooga know compared to a young artillery officer of the proud and terribly busy Pakistani army?

I do know American artillery officers and men would NEVER suggest that they cannot defend their nation because they're not trained nor equipped to do so. I also know that they'd never suggest that until they're properly prepared that there'll be no fight-even if for their country's survival.

Remember the reservist complaining to Rumsfeld about up-armoring their vehicles? It's not like we refused to be targets until receiving better vehicles and anti-IED gear.

The army we field now is NOT the same as the troops that arrived to Afghanistan in early 2002. A lot has changed because of lessons learned-and for our NATO allies. I'm sure you know all that, though, and really don't need anybody to tell you your business.

enigma 947, just to set the record straight with you, I don't endorse your re-deployment west. Fuel costs a lot of money and, frankly, I think if you'll just be a bit more patient the taliban should be in Punjab anyday now.

Question then, of course, is whether you leave your barracks to fight and, if so, for whom?

Thanks.