How much of Pakistan do the Taliban actually control

[Xeric]

I am trying to say that we should focus on the problem at the fundamental level. How are these people getting amo? who supllies them and how can we stop them? Why there are parts of Pakistan where there is no Government rule? How long would it go like this?

— Taliban are backed by elements with vested interest in the ominous establishment of the country. Why they are being supported is another debate altogether (in short, retaining the geo-strategic importance of the Pakistan etc etc — too long and off topic to be discussed here).

Have a look at this: http://www.defence.pk/forums/352398-post1.html , it might help understanding the actual problem and you might get your answer.

 

[Comet]

@ Najda

The ferari camps are there where they were year ago... in the border of sindh and balochistan. I think you never travelled through kashmor side. There the buses and trucks make convoy and is lead by police vans so that the ferari's dont attack at them. Any single vehicle going there is attacked and looted. Police is not doing any thing( for what ever reason). All the wanted people from all over Pakistan go there for shelter and refuge. Yes there are training camps but mostly outlaws live there for a while and return to cities for crimes when the heat is setteled.
I got my knowledge from first hand experience. Belive me, it is happening here in Pakistan.

 

[Xeric]

You'll look long and hard here to find me endorsing a fence on your border. Nor minefields. Ask Asim. Him and I have discussed this and I've stated my reasons for not doing so.

Try using your army...

Chemical weapons? True dissemblance.

Leaving CS inside a bunker complex causes you a problem? Explain, young and proud artillery officer.

Action? Combat? Your young American artillery officer peers would be the appropriate comparison. Not I. Those officers and troops have developed extensive COIN-related battle experience over the last seven and one-half years covering a wide variety of terrain and combat conditions.

We do strange things like forming provisional rifle platoons that patrol neighborhoods while simultaneously securing our guns and providing indirect fires. Not all fires need be kinetic, btw, in COIN to be of assistance. Please read-

Mike Battery Lights Up the Night

"When not firing the cannons, the Marines with Mike Battery provide security, assist the Iraqi Police and help with rebuilding the infrastructure in Rutbah. So far, the unit has been able to fire their Howitzers more than 20 times this deployment for the purpose of night operation illumination, and they look forward to it each time."

Just doin' what the guns can to help the grunts and M.P.s. Hopefully, you will too.

Artillery has to reinvent itself in COIN to retain relevance. You don't sit off on the side, I hope, and await the next go-around with the Indians. Of course, what would these lowly marine artillery reservists from Chattanooga know compared to a young artillery officer of the proud and terribly busy Pakistani army?

I do know American artillery officers and men would NEVER suggest that they cannot defend their nation because they're not trained nor equipped to do so. I also know that they'd never suggest that until they're properly prepared that there'll be no fight-even if for their country's survival.

Remember the reservist complaining to Rumsfeld about up-armoring their vehicles? It's not like we refused to be targets until receiving better vehicles and anti-IED gear.

The army we field now is NOT the same as the troops that arrived to Afghanistan in early 2002. A lot has changed because of lessons learned-and for our NATO allies. I'm sure you know all that, though, and really don't need anybody to tell you your business.

enigma 947, just to set the record straight with you, I don't endorse your re-deployment west. Fuel costs a lot of money and, frankly, I think if you'll just be a bit more patient the taliban should be in Punjab anyday now.

Question then, of course, is whether you leave your barracks to fight and, if so, for whom?

Thanks.

What a rant S-2 What a rant!

Hey for God sake are we discussing 'Artillery Support in COIN Ops" in this thread???

This is the 3rd time i am reminding you, not to give me lectures, i have already taken many!

And i very well know what arm has what role and how they are to be used in ATT, please avoid reproducing your rusted knowledge.

Why you do this? Because you don't have much say or argue about the topic at hand or is just that your old brain has been on vacillations since the day you retired?

Is there some sorta complex?
Was you LoB at some point of your service or is it because your comrades thought that you are a pain in the ***.

Why do you behave like this?

Show me a single post of yours that has served the purpose of the thread?

Lastly off topic but still, if you think that artillery providing support to LIC and COIN ops is something new for you, try to get some details on the number of artillery units that are operating in Balochistan and against the Talibans. You might understand then, how we make use of artillery.

No more arguments from my side.

Enjoy!

 

[Elmo]

@ Najda

The ferari camps are there where they were year ago... in the border of sindh and balochistan. I think you never travelled through kashmor side. There the buses and trucks make convoy and is lead by police vans so that the ferari's dont attack at them. Any single vehicle going there is attacked and looted. Police is not doing any thing( for what ever reason). All the wanted people from all over Pakistan go there for shelter and refuge. Yes there are training camps but mostly outlaws live there for a while and return to cities for crimes when the heat is setteled.
I got my knowledge from first hand experience. Belive me, it is happening here in Pakistan.

Actually I have travelled many times through interior Sindh and the Punjab. The buses travel in convoys because there are way too many highway robbers. they are not nationalists and have got nothing to do with farrari camps! You have misinformed about the highway bandits.

 

[Kasrkin]

"It wasn't your INTENTION to interfere with the taliban's retreat into your lands, was it? You were trying to PRESERVE their force-not destroy it..."

Complete, utter BS.

“US military action against the Taliban in Afghanistan began in late 2001. The operation at Tora Bora, close to the border with Pakistan, that was mounted in the first week of December, was not co-ordinated with Pakistan, no matter what might be claimed to the contrary, and was a military nonsense...

General Tommy Franks wrote on 19th October in 2004 in the New York Times that 'Pakistani troops also provided significant help [during Tora Bora operation] - as many as 100,000 sealed the border and rounded up hundreds of Al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters'

On 27 December 2001 Mr Donald Rumsfeld had said that 'They [Pakistan Army] must have seven or eight, nine battalions along the Pakistan-Afghan border, which is clearly a deterrent to people trying to come across-trying to escape Afghanistan,' and 'we took custody of about 20 people turned over to us by Pakistani authorities. These detainees are now being held in facilities at Kandahar....

The facts are that on 8th December 2001 the Director General Military Operations, Major General Ashfaq Kiyani contacted senior commanders on the western border and, according to one of them, 'discussed the implications of coalition forces operation in Tora Bora and the possibility of deploying our troops in the areas opposite Tora Bora Mountains. Interestingly, our coalition friends had not informed us about their operations and we came to know through the press.'

In spite of having no prior knowledge of the operation, within three days the Pakistan Army's XI Corps deployed 5,000 soldiers (more than a 100 times more than what the US had in the field) along the border about which Mr Rumsfeld said at the time is 'a long border. It's a very complicated area to try and seal, and there's just simply no way you can put a perfect cork in the bottle.' The problem was lack of co-ordination and between US and Pakistani forces, and this set the tone for the years to come...”

Text in the brackets was my addition, however its content can be verified in the literature I've quoted and elsewhere. Needless to say, the words of real observers tend to discount S-2's sensational rants. If anything, given how the initial stages of the war was fought along Durrand, Pakistanis (if ever so paranoid) would have a much more credible case to make if they tried to suggest the US was intentionally responsible for instigating unrest in the tribal areas in the pretext of the ‘WoT’.

"Look where you are now. You deserve your misery..."

We’re well of your less than ‘comradely’ feelings in regards to Pakistan’s situation. We also know that this blame game as come to define you on this forum. But please keep the pointless trolling on the down-low.

 

[S-2]

Actually, if you'll remember, those hard-surface crossings had all sorts of toyota pickups with wounded and other detrious staggering across.

We've sixteen infantry platoons now in Konar. About two battalions with the ability to call on more. Doing so, of course, would pull troops from other locales as the RC-East cdr has a VERY modest reserve (usually a platoon or company on stand-down for a week). I don't know what the ANA are operating in Konar. As it adjoins Bajaur and also possesses the Konar river leading south from Chitral, you've probably access to the detailed (1:25,000) maps of this area to see the truly viable passes.

It may sound jingoistic, but I don't believe militants enter Konar to pass beyond for other destinations. They come to Konar to fight Americans IN Konar. They possess no illusions of using it as ingress to the rest of Afghanistan. Many are A.Q./uzbeks/chechans/arabs passing down from Chitral. Others are from those your forces engage in Bajaur.

I imagine those particular Bajaur guys feel like pinballs in a game machine- BOING! BOING! BOING!.

In any case, our armed forces are engaged daily against these enemies that use your lands as sanctuary, sustainment, and command & control-and have increasingly been since 2002. NATO's forces in Afghanistan continue to grow and forecast no drawdown by any country before the end of 2010. In the interim, the ANA continues to grow in size and capability.

There's a nice video where a correspondent asks a lieutenant up on an O.P. in Khost about the border. The lieutenant very politely said you guys do a GREAT job...down at the road checkpoints. Tear those vehicles apart, he said.

Up in the hills away from the hard-surface crossings? The further away to each side of the crossing, the less coverage. Hill check-points don't extend far off the road.

At this point, the militants have their preferred routes. Some are classic-extending back to the afghan-Soviet war. Your ISI should know those well. So too the P.A. Some remain favorites since antiquity. A few are new. Why not? The militants adapt.

So too the P.A. when it gets serious, I'm sure. Should be lots of battle lessons from Bajaur and maybe we'll see your dynamic forces in action again.

Look forward to seeing your regular army someday.

 

[S-2]

"We’re well of your less than ‘comradely’ feelings in regards to Pakistan’s situation. We also know that this blame game as come to define you on this forum."

Spare me. Blame? No collection of souls so specialize in finger-pointing as their country collapses about them as yourselves. Haute culture in your lexicon.

Kasrkin, you miss the larger point, as usual. Your borders and adjacent lands are your responsibility-then and now. Nobody else.

Your army does a superb job of controlling infiltration from Kashmir. Punjab? Superb. Why the west, then?

YOU DON'T WISH IT SO.

You've selective notions of sovereign rights and responsibilities. Your deployments reflect this continuing fact.

Thanks.

 

[Kasrkin]

"Kasrkin, you miss the larger point, as usual. Your borders and adjacent lands are your responsibility-then and now. Nobody else..."

I've never refuted this, all I've asked is that you stop being selective with these notions of 'sovereign rights and responsibilities,' and apply them to your own less than spot-less endeavors in this region; or when you rant about the ISI ‘killing’ Afghans. You’re a walking talking hypocrisy manifest.

You’re the one making rants here, clumsy ones, that even your leaders obviously discounted at the time. You’re here, trying to accuse us nothing short of treason against ourselves. And then you say you have ‘spirited points’ to make, and you wonder why we don’t agree with your laughably agenda-apparent contentions whole-heartedly?

We’re done trying to educate you, go ahead and continue to make comically retarded ‘points’ about ‘infiltrations’ from the east being ‘checked’ ‘proves’ our complicity in the bloody Durrand. No doubt your primitive knowledge of Pakistan and the region coupled with your astounding narcissism has been much amusement to many. But this ‘you’re getting what you deserve’ B.S. has to stop, you’re not above the rules. Terrorist sympathizers have been kicked for less.

 

[S-2]

"We’re done trying to educate you..."

You've never offered anything of worth except object lessons in self-indulgence and gross mismanagement.

Don't be presumptuous.

 

[pakomar]

Who are you as a matter of fact what are you.

S-2
Kasrkin, you miss the larger point, as usual. Your borders and adjacent lands are your responsibility-then and now. Nobody else.

We know how to secure our border. Take your troops back from Afghanistan and use them to secure your own borders. US are in this mess just because they never learn that army use to defend own borders not to invade nation. Always busy invading and killing innocent civilians. It’s a natural reaction what happening in Afghanistan because US troop boomed woman and children.

Your army does a superb job of controlling infiltration from Kashmir. Punjab? Superb. Why the west, then?

Man read the history of NWFP. These areas are never controlled by any military. Ask British even they can control these areas. Pakistan army has taken control of those areas in which British never did and dream of taking them.

 

[Comet]

Actually I have travelled many times through interior Sindh and the Punjab. The buses travel in convoys because there are way too many highway robbers. they are not nationalists and have got nothing to do with farrari camps! You have misinformed about the highway bandits.

Well then you must know that these robers acctually take rafuge with the feraris and pay them.
First it was only looting, now, its looting and killing and kidnapping.
One of my cousin was kidnapped for ransome in Quetta. He believe that he was held at such a place.

 

[Awesome]

A same argument can be made for pakistan moving there eastern division to the taliban theater in pakistan. Infact, aren't they not just a decoration piece to show of to the Indians.

Pakistan is poor, America is rich. Pakistan needs to fight with India too, has been under threat of invasion... America has no such threat.

 

[Awesome]

It would have been done long ago only if they had been serious, but the problem is they dont want to, why should they, a stable Afghanistan would bring life and prosperity to the Sub-Continent, but who will like that.

If there be peace how can the West exercise its hegemony, no show of force, no flexing of muscles, no permission for intervention in domestic affairs of other countries, so who wants peace to prevail.

And yes the billions that they are spending also needs to be recouped, so what other better option is there?

Americans always first support a war and then fumble in the middle and their resolve starts to crack up after a while.

The Iraq war was vehemently supported under the marketing of the WMD threat. Then later on they opposed it. The same liberals who were like call our boys home and now carrying on the war in Afghanistan. This time the marketing is that its the "Good war". Five years down the lane when this war doesn't end, same things would be said about this war.

Then the next one.

It could be intentional too. Keep the region on a simmer so the matter is never resolved and the regional enemies are kept too busy with their own problems. For example Taliban fights with Pakistan more than it fights with the Americans. So their regional enemy Taliban first has to solve its Pakistani problem only then it will worry about America.

 

[muse]

Enigma says the US wants to show it's muscles, Asim says maybe they want the pot to keep boiling -- in both these positions, we are missing a WHY, a motivation -- The US is nearly busted (actually it is busted) it is despised around the world but Obama is trying to change that and just might succeed, why would the US want to show Muscles in Afghanistan?, Why in Afghanistan? Did it go to Afghanistan for this purpose? Why is it in Afghanistan? What event took it there?

Why would the US prefer to keep the pot boiling ? after it would incur greater costs and loss of American lives, does it make sense? Perhaps it does, perhaps not - but why would it want an unstable situation that will allow Islamist terror to be a problem to Pakistan - and the US says that Pakistan is of vital interest to the US, the US says it will pump much needed aid to the economy of Pakistan and help rearm Pakistan -

And What of Pakistan? What do Pakistan want?

 

[Elmo]

@ enigma947: I wasn’t looking for an answer. But good work with the link (you have researched a lot) but what was the point though? I can refute many of your points therein. Some of it borders on propaganda.

@umairp: Let’s just not bring the Farraris in. The Taliban back criminals to support their funding, doesn’t necessarily mean that the latter subscribe to the former’s views/tactics/ideology etc. Same goes for the nationalists and highway robbers. May be some of the latter are associated with the former… I don’t know. But seriously you can't equate the nationalists and the farrari camps with the Taliban and the area under their control.


Coming back to the topic, which is how much of Pakistan does the Taliban control….anyone knows what the situation in the Punjab is like? What is the Taliban’s popularity in the Punjab?