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How Islamicised is the Pakistan army?

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that targeting civilians is haram I also maintain that the the actions of the secularist government of Pakistan is also haram.The government is acting at the behest of the U.S and the fitna started when they decided to prevent the Mujahideen from fulfilling the obligation of Jihad against the americans across the border in Afghanistan,This is the crux of the matter and the whole reason why this whole situation has developed into what it has

Nice Analysis. This really is the crux of the matter. We are really fighting the American war. This war had nothing to do with us. Americans pound hellfires from predators on bajaur, Nek Muhammad, Abdullah Mehsud and our sheepish government is more than ready to pick the balme. Americans kill our soldiers in their bunkers, and all we have are "gham o ghussay ka izhaar". Anyone named the americans terrorists for that?

And let us not forget that there was peace in the offing in Swat and Malakand, but our Mr 10% (Zardari, or Bhikari?) refused to sign the accord for months before being forced to. After the peace , normalcy did return. Then our 'scholarly' ambassador to Washington Hussain Haqqani went on the Daily Show with John Stewart on CBS to admit that Zardari only signed the peace treaty to show that the Taliban would break the peace. Such sincerity!! If u watch the video of Capt Najam Riaz, Capt Junaid and Naik Shahid Islam on youtube, when they were interviewed by ARY1 World, they clearly admit going with cameras and weapon deep into Taliban territory, AGAINST the peace treaty terms. This shows the Zardari puppet govt was never sincere in honoring the peace treaty anyway. Anyway Capt Najam admitted that he was happy about the peace treaty and even fired his weapon in the air to show his glee, but a certain Colonel Gul was against it and he abhorred the peace treaty. The said colonel was disliked by army and taliban alike.

I really wonder if the "Swat Girl Flogging" video was also the handiwork of Bhikari regime...? As even the Cheif Justice (the only person left with any credibility on the country) too said it was fake. Why was it then used to turn the people against the peace?

And let us not forget that Dawn reported on its frontpage that Holbrooke said he is against such deals in Pakistan, but not in Afghanistan (i think 20th Feb'09). Whose foreign policy are we following.
 
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Nice Analysis. This really is the crux of the matter. We are really fighting the American war. This war had nothing to do with us. Americans pound hellfires from predators on bajaur, Nek Muhammad, Abdullah Mehsud and our sheepish government is more than ready to pick the balme. Americans kill our soldiers in their bunkers, and all we have are "gham o ghussay ka izhaar". Anyone named the americans terrorists for that?

And let us not forget that there was peace in Swat and Malakand, but our Mr 10% (Zardari, or Bhikari?) refused to sign the accord for months before being forced to. Then our 'scholarly' ambassador to Washington Hussain Haqqani went on the Daily Show with John Stewart on CBS to admit that Zardari only signed the peace treaty to show that the Taliban would break the peace. Such sincerity!! If u watch the video of Capt Najam Riaz, Capt Junaid and Naik Shahid Islam on youtube, when they were interviewed by ARY1 World, they clearly admit going with cameras and weapon deep into Taliban territory, AGAINST the peace treaty terms. This shows the Zardari puppet govt was never sincere in honoring the peace treaty anyway. Anyway Capt Najam admitted that he was happy about the peace treaty and even fired his weapon in the air to show his glee, but a certain Colonel Gul was against it and he abhorred the peace treaty. The said colonel was disliked by army and taliban alike.

And let us not forget that Dawn reported on its frontpage that Holbrooke said he is against such deals in Pakistan, but not in Afghanistan (i think 20th Feb'09). Whose foreign policy are we following.

Agreed our leaders are corrupt but it does not mean start killing people with bombs and start destroying mosques,hospital,schools in the name Islam.

Try to first understand Islam , what are the basic conditions required before implementation of shariah in country , it is very slow process can be proceed peacefully but not with power of gun and bombs.

We have already democratic system , why dont they have not tried politically to implement islam?

Infact they are greedy mullahs only fighting for their personal intrests.

Why they dont think that with their actions million of womens ,elders and children will face difficulties and some of them may die.
 
Agreed our leaders are corrupt but it does not mean start killing people with bombs and start destroying mosques,hospital,schools in the name Islam.
I agree. Corrupt leaders should not be fought unless they show open kufr (see Nawaqidhul Islam---Nullifiers of Faith, which are at least 10 in books of fiqh). Aiding non-Muslims in their fight against Muslims is one of them by the way, and replacing shariah law with secular ones is another.

Try to first understand Islam , what are the basic conditions required before implementation of shariah in country , it is very slow process can be proceed peacefully but not with power of gun and bombs.
I assume you have evidence for that. Why did we aid the afghan mujahideen against russians then, or later the taliban in afghanistan who never monced words about implementing Islam through the sword?

We have already democratic system , why dont they have not tried politically to implement islam?
A tried, tested and failed system where a drunkanrd and punj waqta namazi have the same 1 vote? Allama Iqbal said:
jumhooriyat woh nizam hai jahan log tolay nahi , ginay jaatay hain

Anyway, why should a feudal democratic system be tried where a majority of voters would vote for a free meal? And guess who can afford it? Landlord corrupt waderas, chaudhries and US funded secularists.

Infact they are greedy mullahs only fighting for their personal intrests.
Maybe...but what is the army fighting for? Greedy politicians? HMMM...Lets choose the lesser of the two evils then....

BTW sufi muhammad was widely respected in Swat . Even the secularist mouthpiece Dawn could not help admitting. Unlike Maulana Diesel or Mr 10% i.e.

Why they dont think that with their actions million of womens ,elders and children will face difficulties and some of them may die.
u cant we think that there would be peace and normalcy, if we stop being pushed into this war by the americans. It is their war. Why do we have to die for them?
 
I agree. Corrupt leaders should not be fought unless they show open kufr (see Nawaqidhul Islam---Nullifiers of Faith, which are at least 10 in books of fiqh). Aiding non-Muslims in their fight against Muslims is one of them by the way, and replacing shariah law with secular ones is another.

Mullah Omer refused to hand over Osama is responsible for killing of thausad of innocient Afghan in Afghanistan after US invasion .

I assume you have evidence for that. Why did we aid the afghan mujahideen against russians then, or later the taliban in afghanistan who never monced words about implementing Islam through the sword?

We supported Afghan mujahdeen againt Russian aggresion, which was justified as per islamic laws .
Pakistan supported mullah omer for establishment of state , he is responsible what he had done after gaining power.

A tried, tested and failed system where a drunkanrd and punj waqta namazi have the same 1 vote? Allama Iqbal said:
jumhooriyat woh nizam hai jahan log tolay nahi , ginay jaatay hain

Anyway, why should a feudal democratic system be tried where a majority of voters would vote for a free meal? And guess who can afford it? Landlord corrupt waderas, chaudhries and US funded secularists.

We can modify western democracy as per islamic laws through legislation process, why to blame system ? , you can change the criteria of voter as per islamic conditions.

Maybe...but what is the army fighting for? Greedy politicians? HMMM...Lets choose the lesser of the two evils then....

Army is fighting for our nation's servival.

BTW sufi muhammad was widely respected in Swat . Even the secularist mouthpiece Dawn could not help admitting. Unlike Maulana Diesel or Mr 10% i.e.

What he did after peace deal no need to explain again .

u cant we think that there would be peace and normalcy, if we stop being pushed into this war by the americans. It is their war. Why do we have to die for them?

It is not American war , it is war of our own servival.
 
Mullah Omer refused to hand over Osama is responsible for killing of thausad of innocient Afghan in Afghanistan after US invasion
unbelievable, that people still believe this nonsense. Even western journalists dont believe it anymore.....Have you seen 9/11 Ripple Effect? or Power of Nightmares?

bro, the invasion was planned much before 9/11. I dont think anyone believes US ambassador Wendy Chamberlain's one hour presentation to busharraf counted as 'proof'.


We supported Afghan mujahdeen againt Russian aggresion, which was justified as per islamic laws .
and supporting them against American aggression isn't? At least Gen Hamid Gul thinks otherwise...or do u want to discredit him. He has more years in the army than any of us here.

Its simple, busharraf just sold out the country for a few dollars more. and this what caused the outrage against the govt.

Pakistan supported mullah omer for establishment of state , he is responsible what he had done after gaining power

it supported mullah omar to establish ISLAMIC state through the GUN. How was it justified then and not now? BTW pakistan took a u-turn after 9/11. So whatever he did before that is ok, right?

We can modify western democracy as per islamic laws through legislation process, why to blame system ? , you can change the criteria of voter as per islamic conditions

OK. U can give votring rights to some and not others? Will it be democracy anymore. I researched the issue of democracy a while ago, but i was surprised there is NOT A SINGLE agreed upon definition of democracy. This again shows the power of media. And why r we hell bent upon proving democracy works, while the less than 300 year old concept has failed to benefit anyone anywhere, including Britain. OF course if u only could tell what democracy really is. If u do, please make it into a research paper, since no one really knows.


Army is fighting for our nation's servival.
...for the survival of a CIA supported regime and a thoroughly secular constitution. Dont tell me it is Islamic, because it is not, especially after the many rapes busharraf and sharifuddin pirzada

What he did after peace deal no need to explain again
so he was not a greedy mullah before the peace deal? At least every one knows Zardari was greedy since he was in his diapers.

It is not American war , it is war of our own servival.

yes, this is what the bhikari govt wants us to believe. But probably we will only wake up after another 1971 disaster, Allah forbid.
 
Your country is being bombed..people are turning into rabid extremists..blowng themselves and yet you consider it America war.Bravo man barvo.

Can't u understand why is it happening? Because busharraf divided the country with his berserk secularization and ditching old allies. Where in the civilized world's history have women and children been handed over to foreign aggressors known for torture [Remember Afia Siddiqui and her missing kids?] When exactly have ambassadors of sovereign countries sent to torture cells [Ambassador Abdul Rahman Zaeef sent to Guantanamo]? And to put the icing on the rotten cake, busharraf bragged in his autobiography that Pakistan received money in return in return for every terrorist [unproven] they caught. U got a better definition of selling out and mercenary?

And then we expect people to remain as calm as busharraf and his cronies were after getting their hands bloodied in pails of innocent blood......

I dont support terrorism, but busharraf and his gold-digging bounty-hunters are the root cause.
 
unbelievable, that people still believe this nonsense. Even western journalists dont believe it anymore.....Have you seen 9/11 Ripple Effect? or Power of Nightmares?

bro, the invasion was planned much before 9/11. I dont think anyone believes US ambassador Wendy Chamberlain's one hour presentation to busharraf counted as 'proof'.



and supporting them against American aggression isn't? At least Gen Hamid Gul thinks otherwise...or do u want to discredit him. He has more years in the army than any of us here.

Its simple, busharraf just sold out the country for a few dollars more. and this what caused the outrage against the govt.



it supported mullah omar to establish ISLAMIC state through the GUN. How was it justified then and not now? BTW pakistan took a u-turn after 9/11. So whatever he did before that is ok, right?



OK. U can give votring rights to some and not others? Will it be democracy anymore. I researched the issue of democracy a while ago, but i was surprised there is NOT A SINGLE agreed upon definition of democracy. This again shows the power of media. And why r we hell bent upon proving democracy works, while the less than 300 year old concept has failed to benefit anyone anywhere, including Britain. OF course if u only could tell what democracy really is. If u do, please make it into a research paper, since no one really knows.



...for the survival of a CIA supported regime and a thoroughly secular constitution. Dont tell me it is Islamic, because it is not, especially after the many rapes busharraf and sharifuddin pirzada


so he was not a greedy mullah before the peace deal? At least every one knows Zardari was greedy since he was in his diapers.



yes, this is what the bhikari govt wants us to believe. But probably we will only wake up after another 1971 disaster, Allah forbid.

Non sense ,

I am not defending government but how can you justify fasadi and jehadi mullahism which are responsible for suiciodel bombs ,destroying mosques,schools,hospital etc.
 
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Non sense ,

I am not defending government but how can you justify fasadi and jehadi mullahism which are responsible for allow suiciodel bombs ,destroying mosques,schools,hospital etc.

all the arguments are replied with this one liner? come on, u can do better.

Anyway,

According to the Clausewitz axiom: "war is a continuation of politics by other means." The Army is just a tool for the persual of governmental policy. And it is doing just that.

Unless u wish to respond to all my points, u will just prove yourself to be incompetent to discuss.

Anyway here are unanswered points from the previous posts:

1)Proof that afghanistan was invaded because mullah omar refused to over OBL, and that US provided proof for OBL's guilt. And that the invasion was not planned well ahead pf 9/11

2) Islam allows for supporting mujahideen against Russian aggression and not American aggression

3) establishing sharia through gun is not justified? Why was it justified to support Mullah Omar and taliban in enforcing sharia thru the gun?

4) Since u r against Sufi M's actions after the peace deal, do u agree to his actions b4 the deal?

5) A unanimous definition of democracy?

6) Why did scholars sanction Hazrat Hussain, Sa'eed Bin Jubayr and Ibn Ash'ath's taking up arms against the 'STATE'

7) Was Al-Hajjaj Bin Yousuf justified in killing Hazrat 'Abdullah Bin Zubayr besides the Ka'bah inside the Masjid Al-Haraam. Ostensibly Hajjaj's aim too was to 'establish the writ of the state'.

8) Why were army commandos sent for recce inside taliban territory in violation of the peace deal? Its obvious who broke the deal

9) Not just the "taliban version" of sharia, every interpretation thereof demands iqamat al-salaat, hudood, abolishing of sharia and ruling ONLY by Allah's Law. Before the deal, why was the govt (and by extension the Army) fighting just that

10) Would sharia be reinforced once army takes over swat? If not we all know that the ruling of replacing Allah's Law with ANYthing else is kufr. Is the army's mission still justified.


Hoping for a response.........
 
Nice article on the topic

Purging Pakistan\'s jihadi legacy
By Syed Saleem Shahzad

KARACHI - The silent tug of war being fought between the Pakistani army\'s Islamists and its liberal army leadership appears to have reached a boiling point, with well-placed sources telling Asia Times Online that the army, for the first time in its history, has taken on a different - and much more harsh - strategy to deal with its internal struggles, one that includes the death penalty. In the 1980s, for the sake of maintaining its \"strategic depth\" against India, the Pakistani army modified the structure of its jihadi outfits, with the aim of boosting its leverage in Central Asia and Afghanistan before forging a strategic alliance to establish Pakistan\'s political hegemony on South Asia. Since September 11, 2001, however, under immense US pressure, Pakistan was forced to take a U-turn and undo this policy, which resulted in many internal divisions within the army - the only organized institution in the country. Over the past year, several pictures have emerged to support this connection, but the latest discovery by Asia Times Online points to an obvious change already in place.

Behind the iron curtains of Pakistan\'s military bases, an army that for two decades was oriented in Muslim renaissance and pan-Islamism dwells. Whatever little news that spills out from the closed doors of the army\'s cells is enough to determine that a serious problem has indeed been simmering since September 11; President General Pervez Musharraf himself admitted after the two failed attempts on his life in Rawalpindi late last year that army officials were involved in the conspiracy.

Musharraf reacted to the situation in a number of ways, including by court-martialing the renegade officials and sending officials who were not ready to go along with government\'s U-turn policy into early retirement. But this was not enough. Well-placed sources maintain that cases of indiscipline and defiance were so rampant after the South Waziristan operation [1] on the Afghanistan border this year that the government decided to deal with the situation with an iron fist, and has adopted a new modus operandi to deal with problem.

Under the new strategy, all those who were officially assigned to government-sponsored military training camps in the past, in Afghanistan and Pakistani Azad (Free) Kashmir, are now viewed as a threat to the government, and the process of \"cleansing\" them from the army has already begun. This includes both commissioned and non-commissioned army officials.

The basis of this new assumption is a study on all those who officially interacted with militants in training camps. Instead of cultivating the militants, the camps imbibed their radical influences and in many instances were found to be taking part in activities geared against Musharraf, Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz and other national targets. As a way to deal with these dissenters, for the first time in the history of Pakistan, defiant commissioned and non-commissioned army officials can be given the death penalty.

According to information from well-placed sources, the first death sentence was issued to soldier Muhammed Islam Siddiqi, army number 8831068, on October 20 by a military court. Among the number of charges laid, the most significant one relates to abetting a mutiny against Musharraf. Siddiqi is also charged with receiving terrorism training in Bhimber (Azad Jammu and Kashmir) during August 2002 at the \"Maasker\", a training camp of terrorist group Jaish-e- Mohammed; attempting to seduce a person in the military forces of Pakistan from his allegiance to the government of Pakistan; departing from Pakistan without a passport at the Pak-Afghan border; and maintaining associations with a tanzeem (organization) of Pakistan air-force personnel that was advancing a plot to eliminate Musharraf. He was caught in South Waziristan, where he refused to fight against the insurgent tribes.

It is interesting to note that in Azad Kashmir, sources say all jihadi camps have been closed by the Pakistani army and all past training operations that were part of the Inter-Services Intelligence\'s (ISI\'s) forward section operation, and those who were trained in the camps - whether operated by Jaish-e-Mohammed or any other organization - were subject to prior approval by ISI cell officials. Having said that, Siddiqi was posted there on official assignment. Even the banned Jaish-e-Mohammed (renamed as Khuddamul Islam) is still part of the 13-member United Jihad Council, supported by the government of Pakistan.

Sources say Siddiqi is a model case, with several other soldiers said to have secretly faced identical trials, who in many cases were also issued the death sentence. These cases indicate that the military leadership of the country has decided to open a Pandora\'s box to expose its men and their jihadi connections, with the aim of wiping the slate clean.

Apart from all other aspects of the charges, Siddiqi\'s case is indicative of the trends simmering within the Pakistani army. Announcing a death sentence for Siddiqi is symbolic of the struggle to oppress the growing voices of dissent, and how pro- and anti-US divisions have taken place within the army.

It is important to note, however, that conspiracies and defiance in the Pakistani army are not a new phenomenon; they have been occurring on a much broader scale, but a review on the handling of those cases indicates they were dealt with in a much less harsh manner:
In February 1951, 13 army officers and four civilians were arrested on conspiracy charges. The detainees included among others Chief of General Staff Major-General Akbar Khan, Air Commodore Mohammed Khan Janjua, Major-General Nazir Ahmed, Brigadier Siddiq Khan, Brigadier Latif Khan, Naseem Akbar Khan, and famous poet and then editor of the Pakistan Times Faiz Ahmed Faiz. They were accused of conspiring with communists and revolutionary elements to bring about a military takeover. After a few years of detention, all accused were set free. However, military personnel were expelled from service. The case is best known throughout Pakistan as the Rawalpindi conspiracy.
On January 6, 1968, the government announced that 28 people had been arrested on charges of hatching a plot to bring about the secession of East Pakistan (now Bangladesh). The accused also included naval official Lieutenant-Commander Muazzam Hussain, a non-commissioned seaman. The then president, Field Marshal Ayub Khan, released all accused after a few years\' jail. The case is known as the Agartala conspiracy.
Several officers of Pakistan\'s army and air force were arrested on March 30, 1973, on charges of conspiring to overthrow the government of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. The detainees included Major Farooq Adam, Major Nadir Pervez (who later became a federal minister in the Nawaz Sharif government), Brigadier Wajid Ali Shah, Colonel Hamdani, and Major Ayaz Sipra, and a total of 59 officers were declared conspirators. The case is well known as the Attock conspiracy. Fifteen army and four air-force officers were found guilty of conspiracy and were handed jail terms ranging from three months to life.
The Tajammul Hussain Malik conspiracy case is another example in which several military officials allegedly tried to launch a coup against the Zia ul-Haq government in 1980. The officers involved were set free after a plane crash in which General Zia ul-Haq died.
Several army officers were arrested on January 3, 1984, for hatching a conspiracy against the Zia ul-Haq government in connivance with India. The case is known as the Attock conspiracy case II. Several were freed because of a lack of evidence and a few were sentenced to jail.
Operation Khilafah is another case in which Major-General Zaheerul Islam Abbasi and other army officials allegedly try to topple Benazir Bhutto\'s government in the mid-1990s. The military court only sentenced the officials involved to a few years\' imprisonment, beside expelling the officers from service.

All of the above incidents appear to have been more serious than the one involving Siddiqi and the dozens of other recent cases in which several commissioned and non-commissioned officials were given extreme penalties - including death - demonstrating just how serious the situation really is.

Notes
[1] On US pressure, 70,000 Pakistani troops were deployed to the tribal areas on the Pak-Afghan border, where they fought a massive operation in South Waziristan in early 2004 against foreign fighters and their pro-Taliban supporters. However, despite air-force supremacy, the ratio of casualties on the government side remained very high and dozens of commissioned and non-commissioned officers refused to take part in action against tribals on religious grounds.

Asia Times Online - The best news coverage from South Asia
 
"Islamicised"

"Jihad"

What do the non-muslim members on this forum interpret these words to mean?

Jihad for example - what does it literally mean (I am asking non-muslims)

Dear Sir,

In the deeper, more beautiful, sublime sense, it is a struggle for constant self-improvement, to live up to the ideals that the deity wishes us to live by. I am agnostic and not a believer, but find this sense of jihad, an inner struggle to improve oneself constantly against an ideal, to be pure and transcendent, and applicable to all, not just the religious, not just the Muslim.

In a secondary sense, it is armed self-defence against aggression by non-believers.

'Joe S.'
 
all the arguments are replied with this one liner? come on, u can do better.

Anyway,

According to the Clausewitz axiom: "war is a continuation of politics by other means." The Army is just a tool for the persual of governmental policy. And it is doing just that.

Unless u wish to respond to all my points, u will just prove yourself to be incompetent to discuss.

Anyway here are unanswered points from the previous posts:

1)Proof that afghanistan was invaded because mullah omar refused to over OBL, and that US provided proof for OBL's guilt. And that the invasion was not planned well ahead pf 9/11

2) Islam allows for supporting mujahideen against Russian aggression and not American aggression

3) establishing sharia through gun is not justified? Why was it justified to support Mullah Omar and taliban in enforcing sharia thru the gun?

4) Since u r against Sufi M's actions after the peace deal, do u agree to his actions b4 the deal?

5) A unanimous definition of democracy?

6) Why did scholars sanction Hazrat Hussain, Sa'eed Bin Jubayr and Ibn Ash'ath's taking up arms against the 'STATE'

7) Was Al-Hajjaj Bin Yousuf justified in killing Hazrat 'Abdullah Bin Zubayr besides the Ka'bah inside the Masjid Al-Haraam. Ostensibly Hajjaj's aim too was to 'establish the writ of the state'.

8) Why were army commandos sent for recce inside taliban territory in violation of the peace deal? Its obvious who broke the deal

9) Not just the "taliban version" of sharia, every interpretation thereof demands iqamat al-salaat, hudood, abolishing of sharia and ruling ONLY by Allah's Law. Before the deal, why was the govt (and by extension the Army) fighting just that

10) Would sharia be reinforced once army takes over swat? If not we all know that the ruling of replacing Allah's Law with ANYthing else is kufr. Is the army's mission still justified.


Hoping for a response.........

Compare apple with apple , shocked again you are camparing terrorists with Shabah, are you on drugs?

I totally reject your all arguments , read about islam and islamic history and come back for discussion again.

Your all basis are wrong and against the teaching of islam , islam dont allow terrorism at any conditions.

Who will get benfit of terrorism which sufi and TPP spreading, infact ummah is facing more treath from these internal terrorist then our greater enemies israel and india.

They are making their task more easier by spreading terrorism in Pakistan.

They destroyed iraq ,afghanistan and now Pakistan which is only hope of muslim ummah and safe heaven for muslims.

You are totally brain washed , i can pray for your hadayat only.
 
Dear Sir,

In the deeper, more beautiful, sublime sense, it is a struggle for constant self-improvement, to live up to the ideals that the deity wishes us to live by. I am agnostic and not a believer, but find this sense of jihad, an inner struggle to improve oneself constantly against an ideal, to be pure and transcendent, and applicable to all, not just the religious, not just the Muslim.

In a secondary sense, it is armed self-defence against aggression by non-believers.

'Joe S.'

Thanks for your reply

I really wanted to know how non-Muslims perceived such terms. You have clearly studied the subject and for that reason know of the intrinsic meaning behind Jihad.

So far only a few non-Muslims have given us their perceptions of the term "Jihad" - I would appreciate other non-Muslims coming forward with their ideas and perhaps even present proofs for your perceptions etc.
 
We have many descriptions, the books of ahadith are full of narrations relating to his beautiful and noble appearance




So why should we ban his commandments may Allah's blessings be upon him?



What you are stating is kufr of the highest order, I strongly urge you to refrain from such blasphemous speech.

If you choose to reject the teachings of Islam then that's your problem but don't try to propagate your ideals to Muslims who would take great offense at your suggestions.


Pakistan ka mathlab kiya? La illah ha ilullah




.

Dear Sir,

I hope that you are aware that in a public meeting, the Qaid-e-Azam of Pakistan shouted down and forced to sit down a member of the audience who stood up and suggested that this slogan should be adopted by the AIML. Mr. Jinnah went on to say that neither he nor the League Council had ever endorsed these words, and that the member from the floor might have used it 'to catch a few votes'.

If you wish, I can give you precise references of this incident. Otherwise, you are free to look up the very elaborate discussion on PTH on the subject of Mr. Jinnah's intentions for Pakistan.

He is an inspiring figure, for Indians and Pakistanis alike (I am a loyal and patriotic Indian), and reading him and his views is highly recommended for all. I am not suggesting that he was super-human, but he towered above most other leaders of the independence movement. His words and sentiments must have some value, even in these diminished days.

'Joe S.'
 
Compare apple with apple , shocked again you are camparing terrorists with Shabah, are you on drugs?
I did...when? Since u r ignorant about how to derive basic islamic rulings, i take it u think rulings should be taken by contemporary events not earlier precedents.

I totally reject your all arguments , read about islam and islamic history and come back for discussion again.
A word for the wise: take u own advise. If u have any counter arguments bring them forward and lets see who has read more.

Your all basis are wrong and against the teaching of islam , islam dont allow terrorism at any conditions.

U r again becoming emotional. What is the definition of terrorism? Anyone whom Zafar Abbas and PTV call terrorist? Like democracy, the term terrorism has never been properly defined. Is it terrorism to sell Afia Siddiqui and her children to the US?

Who will get benfit of terrorism which sufi and TPP spreading,
What terrorism did sufi muhammad preach?

infact ummah is facing more treath from these internal terrorist then our greater enemies israel and india.

this is what busharraf, bhikari and the west wants us to believe. Congragulations, u have taken the bait hook,line and sinker. Now india is no longer our enemy no 1. Neither is Israel, and of course america never was

They are making their task more easier by spreading terrorism in Pakistan.
so they are still enemies?

They destroyed iraq ,afghanistan and now Pakistan which is only hope of muslim ummah and safe heaven for muslims.
excuse me wasn't it america and its allies which destroyed these two countries? Was it the taliban who rained down daisy cutters? Was it them who raped 14 year old Abeer in Hadith, Iraq or ran the Abu Ghuraib terrorist camp?

Sure, Pakistan is a safe haven: for secularist sellouts. For Muslims, it has never been more unsafe, not for ambassadors (Zaeef), women (Aafia Siddiqui) or children (her two children). Many men in guantanamo which had been sold over by pakistan were released by US, since they figured out they had nothing to do with terrorism. Of course busharraf got his bounty and we dont care anymore.

You are totally brain washed , i can pray for your hadayat only.

switch off PTV and you may feel better
 
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