How Islamicised is the Pakistan army?

[waraich66]

I don't care what Qadiani's or Ahamdi's think.. i don't care what anyone believes or thinks for that matter. This is a complete non-issue that needs to be removed as it serves absolutely no purpose what so ever in a professional application form. The Goverment of Pakistan has no right to Pinch people for whatever they believe in.. it doesn't serve any purpose and only causes hatred..

From what i see Religion lives, breathes and thrives on segregation and segregation forces you to choose differences.. and focusing on differences leads to hatred and hatred is one step towards violence Period!!

Agreed with you that there should not any discremination in vibrant society , Pakistan is muslim majority country created on the basis of two nation theory ,it is responsibility of GOP to protect the minority , it is in minorities intrest to declare their indentity.

Officially Qadianis are declared non muslim , the dont want to declare them non muslim and always have objection on this issue, other minorities have no objection.

 

[Conscientious objector]

By far the WORST LINE that i have ever heard in my life.. People like you are the reason the Muslim world is in the Tank..

You have failed miserably to understand my point and instead of requesting clarification you have jumped the gun and wrote a tirade of absolute rubbish.

Muslims are in the condition that we are in because people like you have turned their backs on the deen and have resorted to following your whims and desires.

Shutting your brain is the worst form of tyrany you can bring upon yourself,

If your brain wasn't on shutdown you would never have made this comment without understanding exactly what I said.

freedom of conscience is a gift that all humans have the ability to use and depriving yourself of something so precious is far worse than Death... I pity you..

Pity your own sad state of affairs.


Now let me clarify what I meant (even though i feel it was clear) as it seems some of our more challenged forum members are having difficulty understanding.


Aql= reasoning and intellect, I never suggested for a second that we should not use it at all, on the contrary I encourage everyone to use their god given faculties.What I said was that we should not use it OVER AND ABOVE the Naql.


This saying is and was common amongst some of the greatest Muslim scholars that have ever lived and who are alive today.

The Naql is the sacred texts i.e the holy Quran and the Prophetic ahadith.

So what this means is that we give preference to the holy scriptures i.e the Naql over our own limited and feeble minds.

Allah is the all knowing and all wise we accept his noble commands without question, as Allah subhanu wa ta ala knows that which we do not, and that which we can never know or understand.


The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, "We hear and we obey": it is such as these that will attain felicity. It is such as obey Allah and His Messenger, and fear Allah and do right, that will win (in the end), (24:51-52)




.

 

[zubair723]

Agreed with you that there should not any discremination in vibrant society , Pakistan is muslim majority country created on the basis of two nation theory ,it is responsibility of GOP to protect the minority , it is in minorities intrest to declare their indentity.

Officially Qadianis are declared non muslim , the dont want to declare them non muslim and always have objection on this issue, other minorities have no objection.

I recommend you read ALLAMA IQBAL's letters on QADIANISM.

 

[ajpirzada]

Roukna hai tu barash ko rouko
Mitee to mahky gi yeh ush ki hai majburi,

My brother,

We can not eliminate the crime from our soil from terrorism untill we kill the reason for crime and terrorism , that is reason islamic punishment can not be implemented in society where shariah is not prevailing.

I hope you understand my point , we need to start operation rahi rast from top to bottom ,but we are doing reverse, our leaders are corrupt and planted by western powers , they dont have roots in our soil , when ever they want make agreement with talaban and then where is their claim goes that they are terrorist and after few days they again ordered our miltery flush them , why they dont have one stand on national security , if some body is declared terrorist he should not be involved in peace deal,it is againt our constitution.
They are actually playing with nation and our constitution,nation should first do jehad againts these leaders.

u are sayin wat imran khan says. talkin about the long term solutions.
short term solution is the crush these talibans and then educate the society, build hospitals, generate economic activity. if TTP is not first destroyed then all wat u will create will get blown up. wat u r sayin can only be done when TTP is crushed.

barish say bachnay kay liay chhatt banani parti hay. per chhatt tub he bunay gi jub barish rukay gi.
let us first put an end to this rain of terror only then we can build a roof to protect us from such ideology.

but i agree with u. even if we manage to crush TTP (which is must rit now), our corrupt leader will not build schools, hospital, industry which means TTP will come back. this is wat happened in bajur.

 

[ajpirzada]

Conscientious objector

Well lets see how the Webster dictionary defines secularism shall we?

agreed. i was wrong. if we go by the defination which u have quoted from dictionary then islam and secularism are two different things.

I think your just getting into semantics here,can you elaborate as to what exactly you see as being the difference? Regardless of which word one uses to describe the Islamic position on enforcing the salah (as well as other farahid) the fact remains that the punishment in the sharia for the one who purposefully neglects his prayers and continues to do so even after having been brought before an Islamic court is death.

can you plz show me where it says that if a person does not pray he should be killed?


You seem to have a bad habit of misunderstanding clear statements. I have not suggested that the reasons for the rulings (ahkam) are not important.My point was that the PRIMARY reasons for our acting in accordance with them was to submit our will to that of our creator, regardless of whether we understand the reasons for revelation or not.Please try to understand my point

We do not put our reasoning/intellect (aql) over and above the texts (naql), we hear and we obey.


wat i am sayin is that PRIMARY reason of God tellin us to not do somethin is that it is not gud for us. Propeht (peace be upon him) converted ppl to islam through reasonin and not by tellin ppl to do something just bec God wants it that way.

 

[Conscientious objector]

agreed. i was wrong. if we go by the defination which u have quoted from dictionary then islam and secularism are two different things.

Yes secularism without doubt is kufr.

can you plz show me where it says that if a person does not pray he should be killed?

Yes, but before I do so I would like to make it very clear,in case someone misunderstands, that the hadh punishments are for the Islamic authorities to implement. This is very important to understand,not any tom dick or harry can take it upon himself to carry out punishments prescribed in Islamic law.

Imam Ibn Rushd al-Qurtubi said:
With regard to the one who should carry out this punishment – i.e., the hadd punishment for drinking alcohol – they agreed that the ruler should carry it out, and that applies to all the hadd punishments.
Bidaayat al-Mujtahid, 2/233.

Imam Al-Shawkaani said:
It was narrated from Abu’l-Zinaad from his father that the fuqaha’ of the people of Madeenah used to say that no one should carry out any of the hadd punishments except the ruler,





To proceed


This is a subject in which there is some difference of opinion amongst the Ulema of the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence. All the Ulema are agreed that the one who does not pray is to be punished,the differences occur in some of the finer details.For example some Ulema are of the view that such a person should be imprisoned for 3 days to give him a chance to repent and to start praying, if he continues to refuse to perform his obligatory prayers he is to be executed.The majority of the Ulema state that he is executed but remains a Muslim, where as some Ulema state that he is executed as a kaafir and he is not to be prayed over, nor is he to be buried in the Muslim burial ground.

The respected Ulema who regard the one who abandons the prayer to be an apostate take their evidences from some of the following Ahadith

the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Between a man and shirk and kufr there stands his neglect of the prayer.” (Narrated by Muslim in Kitaab al-Eemaan from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)).

It was narrated that Buraydah ibn al-Husayb (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘The covenant that distinguishes between us and them is the prayer, and whoever neglects it has disbelieved (become a kaafir).’” (It was narrated by Ahmad, Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, al-Nisaa’i and Ibn Maajah).

What is meant here by kufr or disbelief is the kind of kufr which puts a person beyond the pale of Islam, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) made prayer the dividing line between the believers and the disbelievers. It is known that the community of kufr is not the same as the community of Islam, so whoever does not fulfil this covenant must be one of the kaafireen (disbelievers).


The evidence for the execution of the apostate is the narration that is found in Saheeh Bukhari in which the Messenger of Allah(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said

"Whoever changes his religion execute him" Saheeh Bukhari

I hope you are following,and understanding the difference of opinion.All the Ulema of the ahlus Sunnah wal Jammah who have ever lived and who are alive today (I am not aware of any exceptions) are in agreement that the one who does not pray should be punished by the Islamic state.The only differences are as to what the Punishment should be ( a minority are of the view that he should be imprisoned until he establishes his prayers) and amongst those who agree that such an individual should be executed the difference is whether he is killed as a murtad or whether he remains a Muslim(but he is still executed).


I will InshaAllah post statements from scholars narrated in the books of fiqh of the four schools of thought with references as soon as I am able to,but I don't have that information to hand right now.

Please ask if you seek further clarification.

wat i am sayin is that PRIMARY reason of God tellin us to not do somethin is that it is not gud for us. Propeht (peace be upon him) converted ppl to islam through reasonin and not by tellin ppl to do something just bec God wants it that way.

I understand your point but it seems you keep missing mine,Im not saying that there are not good reasons for the commandments in Islam, there are without doubt.My point is that we comply with the commandments whether we understand the wisdom behind them or not.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I suggest you come out of shia and sunni , we are all muslim ,Allah SWT named us muslim , we should not insult us from calling us shia ,suni,bralvi,deobandi .

AZ is not the one pushing sectarianism, the Taliban are. AZ merely pointed out how hateful these people are, declaring XYZ sect 'non-Muslim' or 'apostate'.

The Taliban and other assorted 'scholars' criticizing this or that sect and calling them 'non-Muslims/apostate' are the ones you shoudl criticize.

Secondly there is no talaban movement in pakistan ,basically few local trible war lord are being used by our external enemies.

They call themselves 'Taliban' so that is what they are. Taliban is just a word, it is not something sacred or holy that you have to insist that those who use it are not what they claim. If these murderers and terrorists want to call themselves taliban, then so be it.

Whoever is 'using' them is besides the point - that they are being used and therefore pose a threat to Pakistan that must be eliminated is what is important.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

We can not eliminate the crime from our soil from terrorism untill we kill the reason for crime and terrorism , that is reason islamic punishment can not be implemented in society where shariah is not prevailing.

That is true - at the end of the day the insurgency cannot be completely eliminated unless the writ of the State is enforced and development and services provided.

I hope you understand my point , we need to start operation rahi rast from top to bottom ,but we are doing reverse, our leaders are corrupt and planted by western powers , they dont have roots in our soil , when ever they want make agreement with talaban and then where is their claim goes that they are terrorist and after few days they again ordered our miltery flush them , why they dont have one stand on national security , if some body is declared terrorist he should not be involved in peace deal,it is againt our constitution.
They are actually playing with nation and our constitution,nation should first do jehad againts these leaders.

I disagree - some people would argue that many criminals resort to crime because they do not have enough opportunities to earn a legal income.

That may be true, but don't you agree that it would be foolish to tell our la enforcement to sit in their thanas (which they often do anyway) instead of stopping crime, while the government attempted to create conditions where people attracted to crime would have alternate legal options to earn money?

Of course that would be foolish - yo cannot stop law enforcement while you work on alleviating issues like poverty, lack of job opportunities and development. The two go hand in hand.

The issue with the insurgency is the same - now that the Taliban are carrying out violence and crime, it is the GoP's job to tackle the violent aspect of the Taliban with force, while simultaneously attempting to bring about development and alternate opportunities for folk in the Tribal areas.

The GoP is on the right track for now - you cannot bring development in an area where there is no government writ and militants control everything, or in an area where there is violence.

 

[Conscientious objector]

Present engagements are haram because you say so? I beg to differ specially when the other side is targeting civilians to avenge military operations (which started because of the fitna of TTP).

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that targeting civilians is haram I also maintain that the the actions of the secularist government of Pakistan is also haram.The government is acting at the behest of the U.S and the fitna started when they decided to prevent the Mujahideen from fulfilling the obligation of Jihad against the americans across the border in Afghanistan,This is the crux of the matter and the whole reason why this whole situation has developed into what it has.

Sharia is the right of all of the people of Pakistan, but why are only the Taliban allowed to push their agenda and version on the rest of the muslims of Pakistan? Is it not clear to everyone that while Pakistanis and even the Pakistani armed forces are practicing muslims, they have differences with the manner in which a specific brand of Islamic interpretation (Salafi) is being shoved down their throats?

Well if you agree that the sharia is the right of all the people of Pakistan then why is there so much hostility toward those who seek to bring about its implementation? Here I'm not referring to the TTP who's methodology you disagree with, but it appears that any group which calls for sharia to be brought about in Pak even if they call for non violent means, is detested and labeled as terrorist etc by the secular elitists who have the most to lose from the application of the sharia.

What is haraam is to destabilize a Muslim land by the use of gun. What needs to be understood here is that in Pakistan, it is essentially the wahabiyaat and salafi ideology coming to head with the beliefs of the ahle-sunna wal-jammat who do not believe in taking up the gun to settle issues with the leadership regardless of how corrupt they may be. By doing so, there is a greater danger to the Muslims of the land and as such it is not acceptable.

Fist of all lets get away from labels such as salafi, wahabi,ahle sunnah,such labels are just that, labels.Lets first look at what the actual ideology of these groups is what they are calling for and whether it is in accordance with the teachings of Islam.
The reason we see such extremism in Pakistan by those calling for Islamic rule is because those that oppose them (the secular elite) are very extreme in their opposition to Islam.They fear that their comfortable corrupt lifestyles will be abolished in the event of an Islamist take over,they have the most to lose in a society where justice and equal rights for the everybody including those at the bottom of the social ladder are enforced.

I am a sunni and firmly believe that if there is injustice or other morality issues, picking up the gun is not the way to resolve it. The Sauds under the influence of ibn Wahab took the exact same route by uprooting the ottomans when they should have worked it from inside and let the khilafa around. Yet they simply thought they were smarter and better Muslims than all of the others and we see what we see now.

What is the method for bringing about Islamic rule when such change is vehemently and violently opposed, according to you and your "sunni" ideology then? Bring proof from Islamic sources, quote the Quran and Ahadith. Do you have an alternative? Do you realise that working for Islamic rule where the Hukm of Allah rules the land is an obligation for Muslims?

Pakistanis (and the Armed Forces inclusive) are realizing the impact of this salafi/takfiri mentality in Pakistan.

Again lets leave aside labels, lets first agree that it is an obligation for Muslims to work to bring about the implementation of the Sharia,do you agree to this?

The issue of shahadaa is better left for another time. If you believe the other side is on the right, then I have absolutely no doubt that the Pakistan Army is also on the right. Its a matter of interpretation and the Muslims of Pakistan have yet to be convinced that the interpretation of the taliban is the right one.

The reason why the Taliban have the support they do is because there seems to be no viable alternative in Pakistan,if their goal is to have the sharia implemented then there is no doubt that this goal in and of itself is a good one and in accordance with the teachings of Islam.Here I'm not talking about methodology but the actual goal itself.


What is important is that we realise that the only way of life acceptable to Allah is Islam,and this includes the ruling system and not just individual rituals of worship etc.

In order for us to move away from extremism we need to have alternatives that offer a means for the Muslims of Pakistan to achieve the Islamic goals/ideals.

There needs to be an Islamic revolution, but the sad fact is that there are those (corrupt secular elitists) who will oppose it and this will again lead people to seek violent means.


.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

We have many many of our own great scholars why would we need to refer to a non Muslim to teach us our deen?

.............

Now this I disagree with completely. First, it smacks of insularity. Second, why can't a great scholar who is a non Muslim have an important contribution to make to Islamic theory? It's a little like saying that a non Englishman could not possibly have anything relevant to say on Shakespeare.

 

[muse]

The reason why the Taliban have the support they do is because there seems to be no viable alternative in Pakistan

Well, yes - certainly - it's clear Talib have great support - and of course talib and Islam are the same thing anyway.

 

[waraich66]

u are sayin wat imran khan says. talkin about the long term solutions.
short term solution is the crush these talibans and then educate the society, build hospitals, generate economic activity. if TTP is not first destroyed then all wat u will create will get blown up. wat u r sayin can only be done when TTP is crushed.

barish say bachnay kay liay chhatt banani parti hay. per chhatt tub he bunay gi jub barish rukay gi.
let us first put an end to this rain of terror only then we can build a roof to protect us from such ideology.

but i agree with u. even if we manage to crush TTP (which is must rit now), our corrupt leader will not build schools, hospital, industry which means TTP will come back. this is wat happened in bajur.

Talaban and Jehadi Mullahism is product(outcome of corrupt society) for which government machinery and leadership and also to some extend our society is responsible.

Talaban is cancer of our society but most dangeruos is the cause of this cancer,

What GOP/PA presently doing is also killing the cancer cells but not focusing on cause of this cancer

If we continue this strategy we could not achieve our goal.

 

[waraich66]

AZ is not the one pushing sectarianism, the Taliban are. AZ merely pointed out how hateful these people are, declaring XYZ sect 'non-Muslim' or 'apostate'.

The Taliban and other assorted 'scholars' criticizing this or that sect and calling them 'non-Muslims/apostate' are the ones you shoudl criticize.

There is no doubt that these terrorist should be comdemed and opposed as much as possible, but we should focus on the cause of terrorism that is more dangerous for servival of our nation.I think major cause is corruption ,which always travel from top to bottom, we need to eliminate our corrupt leadership and its machinery .

They call themselves 'Taliban' so that is what they are. Taliban is just a word, it is not something sacred or holy that you have to insist that those who use it are not what they claim. If these murderers and terrorists want to call themselves taliban, then so be it.

Whoever is 'using' them is besides the point - that they are being used and therefore pose a threat to Pakistan that must be eliminated is what is important.

Why these terrorist selected this name because our enemies(India&Israel) wanted to creat hatred in the mind of general public that the name talaban means terrorist but the meaning of word talib is student of islamic teachings.

Our enemies wanted to attack on the source of motivation of muslims and next step is divide muslims into different sects .

I think there strategy is sucessfull , they are using these terrorists named talaban to destory school ,dispensories and all public welfare infrastructure and also they are creating hatred between different faction of Islam.

What ever going on in SWAT and FATA is well planned by enemy of whole muslim ummah.

 

[zubair723]

u are sayin wat imran khan says. talkin about the long term solutions.
short term solution is the crush these talibans and then educate the society, build hospitals, generate economic activity. if TTP is not first destroyed then all wat u will create will get blown up. wat u r sayin can only be done when TTP is crushed.

barish say bachnay kay liay chhatt banani parti hay. per chhatt tub he bunay gi jub barish rukay gi.
let us first put an end to this rain of terror only then we can build a roof to protect us from such ideology.

but i agree with u. even if we manage to crush TTP (which is must rit now), our corrupt leader will not build schools, hospital, industry which means TTP will come back. this is wat happened in bajur.

Freind, I agree with another friend FUNDMENTALIST on this.
We should simultaneously target the causes within our society. The causes should be recognized not ignored. We should make sure that the 'fire of militancy' should not get more fuel.
Recognizing & tergeting the 'root causes' is far more difficult then the ARMY OPERATIONS option. Difficult but necessary & compulsory.
The ARMY OPERATIONS will just get some relief time but will ultimatley things will get more worse

 

[yarmouk]

Some guud view point from Wiki.

.....The rest is not much of the truth so i have omitted it.

what u quoted hadnt much either. John Esposito has been waging a jihad against jihad since i started watching BBC in teenage. What sort of an authority is an orientalist like him? Let's see what the Prophet (sallallaho'alaihiwasalam) himself said:

It was reported that a man asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “A man who fights for the sake of booty, a man who fights for the sake of fame and a man who fights for the sake of status – which of them is fighting for the sake of Allaah?” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The one who fights so that the word of Allaah will be supreme is the one who is fighting for the sake of Allaah.” (Agreed upon, from the hadeeth of Abu Moosa al-Ash’ari, may Allaah be pleased with him). (Al-Bukhaari, 3/206; Muslim, 3/1512-1513).

Ahmad Shakir, the great scholar of Egypt (and Al-Azhar) said:

One of the strangest things to note is that we are living in a time when some of the Muslims are embarrassed to quote the verses and ahaadeeth on jihad in front of their kaafir friends. Their faces turn red because they are too shy to mention the rulings on the jizyah, slavery and killing prisoners of war. They wish that they could erase these verses and ahaadeeth from the Qur’aan and Sunnah so that they would not be criticized by this world with its backward principles despite its claims to be civilized. If they cannot erase them then they try to misinterpret them and distort their meanings so that they suit the whims and desires of their masters. I will not say so that they suit their whims and desires, for they are too weak to have their own whims and desires, and too ignorant. Rather it is the whims and desires of their masters and teachers among the missionaries and colonialists, the enemies of Islam.”

‘Umdat al-Tafseer, 1/46.

Lastly, i or anyone else has No authority what so ever to wage Jihad on anyone as it is the State's responsibility to decide.

Let's see. Hazrat Hussain, Sa'eed Bin Jubayr, Ibn Ash'ath all fought without government purview and against the "State". The slogan of Al-Hajjaj Bin Yusuf in subjugating 'Abdullah Bin Zubayr and killing him inside the Masjid Al-Haraam too was to 'establish the writ of the state'

And BTW, the Taliban in Afghanistan were the "State" before the US installed its puppet regime. Are they allowed to fight back, or do you still go with the state?