And again...You continue to fail to see the glaring fallacy. The issue here is the charge of treason, which you equate with apostasy.
I've explained to you how criticism does not necessarily have to be the same as treason in all instances.Speaking from an Islamic point of view it may entail apostasy or it may not
If the soldier is disobedient, he will be charged with insubordination, not treason. If he object to the war -- ANY war -- due to issues of conscience, he could be demoted, relegated to non-combat duties, or even dishonorably discharged, but not charged with treason.
The fact that you avoided answering this question to begin with I feel is the reason that you wrongly assumed I was implying by my question that such an individual would be charged with treason.This is not what I was getting at,the point was that absolute freedom of speech does not exist.Every nation and every society have certain limits as to what is acceptable and what isn't in terms of what one can say openly.Obviously these limits differ from people to people even from time to time but the fact is no nation tolerates citizens who cross those limits.
US Muslim who killed fellow soldiers sentenced to death - Americas, World - The Independent
Hassan Akbar was charged with murder, not treason, even though his sentiments were clearly against his country. Actress Jane Fonda, aka 'Hanoi Jane', of Vietnam War fame, who sang with North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gunners, was not charged with treason. So here we have two instances where despite rhetorics abounds with the word 'treason', neither individual were actually charged with treason.
So what if he was charged with murder and not treason? He will be executed for his alleged crime.Whats your point?
Wrong...I never said that Islam classified criticism as treason. Here is what I actually said on post 350 page 24...
You said
"maybe it is for Islam" thereby implying that such is the case
Whereas on post 341 page 23, it is YOU who equated criticism with treason...
I fail to see your point,I asked this particular question to highlight the point as Ive explained above.
Apostasy is the final ACT that stemmed from dissatisfaction. So is treason -- an action. This is not about 'many examples' but about consistency.
Apostasy in Islam doesn't necessarily have to be and act rather it can be a statement or a belief.
If all you have is 'many examples', one can only wonder how many others who were executed for criticizing the caliphs, probably far more than your 'many examples'.
I have many examples of criticism of the Muslim ruler that did not entail apostasy and therefor there was no punishment.You have what you falsely call probability,that is a non starter bring some examples if you want your words to mean anything.To just claim
"one can only wonder" etc is totally ridiculous and not worthy of a response as there is nothing to respond to.
Looks like the point is that you are unable to keep track of your own arguments.
No it's clear that your too narrow minded to even understand what my argument is,and you'd rather interpret what I say in a way that suits your preconceived bias.
You have been trying to associate apostasy with treason and then with criticism as shown above with your own quotes. It is YOU who have been engaging in straw man arguments. So let us review the argument chain, shall we?
OK lets do just that.
So where is that 'evidence to the contrary'? You provided NONE, whereas I provided the names of three very prominent leftist critics of the US, all three men are free to spew their hatred for their own country, and one -- Noam Chomsky -- was actually paid by the Pentagon, a fact that Chomsky never denied. So if you are going to say that the US is intolerant of criticism, put up or shut up.
You belie your claim that the US invites criticism, I have not said that critics do not exist in the US,I know they do.What is false is to state that such criticism is invited by the US.Statements such as
"all three men are free to spew their hatred for their own country"proves that such criticism is not invited rather it is repulsed and regarded as being unpatriotic etc.This is exactly what I meant when I said that Ive seen evidence to the contrary,those who dare to speak out are marginalised and demonised, their arguments are mocked and ridiculed,and this is how your society mainly through its powerful news networks reacts to criticism.
The sources are people I have met and spoken with
Your society is the ummah and it is an intolerant one.
O.K I'm glad your showing your true colours, so you label over a billion Muslims as intolerant all the while arrogantly presuming that its you and your society that are oh so accommodating.Its not the Muslim Ummah that is responsible for the deaths of millions, all in the name of spreading freedom and democracy is it?
Then why do you persists on asking what would happened to someone who criticizes the US?
To make clear the point that not all criticism is tolerated by all nations including but not specifically the US.
Do try to remember that apostasy is about rejection, but BEFORE rejection there has to be criticism.
Not always
But apostasy, even if it can be equated to treason, apostasy and treason is not the same as criticism.
Never said it was, stop burning straw men why don't ya?
I do not care if these countries are 'Islamic' states or not. You have been attempting to associate apostasy with treason
Don't chop and change your stance, your whole point was based on the argument that such killings were backed somehow by Muslim countries. you said.
Did any ambassador or diplomatic delegation that can claim to speak for ALL the muslims in the world appealed to the Dutch government to extradite Theo van Gogh to a muslim dominated country to stand trial for committing a grave insult against Islam?
What has the killing of van gough got to do with any Muslim country?
My response was that the analogy is invalid because the US is not a transnationallist entity, like how any religion always claimed to be.
But that doesn't stop the US from imposing what it claims is freedom and democracy on other nations all the while seeking to steel its resources.
Because of this transnationalist status, and because of the belief that apostates deserve the death sentence, ANY muslim or any muslim dominated country can take Islamic laws into their own hands and act independently
.
What a load of absolute bolo**s,I have made it more than clear that Islam does not permit individuals to carry out legal punishments.These punishments are for the Islamic state to administer.
You do not like how the US has interests in other countries, then explain what is Iran's interests in meddling in the affairs of Israel?
I am not a spokesman for Tehran,go ask them if your so concerned.
Precisely because of a religion's claim to be transnationalist, any muslim can claim to act on behalf of the ummah about any issue and get away with it.
Listen, if you want to discuss then I suggest you don't talk total crap, Ive clarified this on more than one occasion.No Muslim can take the law into his own hands.
Osama bin Laden certainly did.
Yeah and so did Timothy Mcveigh, so what's your point? Do you fail to see your double standards.
The Taliban, the ruling authority in Afghanistan, does not have to give explicit legal support for al-Qaeda, just materiel support will suffice. Osama bin Laden had this Saudi citizenship revoked, he is a not a citizen of any country, but by virtue of his religion, he is still a member of the ummah.
Your point is what exactly? Don't be ambiguous, spit it out, I'm having difficulty trying to follow exactly what you are trying to get at.
The US is the largest singlular donor to the Palestinians and yet we have news reports of Palestinians rejoicing in the streets on Sept. 11, 2001. They were cheering for a muslim who they believed acted on behalf of the ummah. No 'Islamic' state necessary.
The US is the main supporter of Israel and its brutal occupation and genocide of the Palestinian people,it has armed Israel with all the latest weapons including nuclear weapons.The US is the main facilitator of Israeli crimes against the Palestinians yet you expect the Palestinians to love the US because you claim it throws them a few scraps now and again?
And I call you grossly naive. Supposedly bin Laden married one of Omar's daughter. They are essentially family. Mullah Omar does not need to know the exact details of what bin Laden does, the general plans is enough.
You can speculate all day long it doesn't really count for anything at all.
No one really take those books seriously. A true 'rogue nation' will not hesitate to silence those who would write this nonsense.
Thank you for proving again how your nation goes about rejecting criticism, allow me to repeat myself, "statements such as
"No one really take those books seriously"proves that such criticism is not invited rather it is repulsed and regarded as being unpatriotic etc.This is exactly what I meant when I said that Ive seen evidence to the contrary,those who dare to speak out are marginalised and demonised, their arguments are mocked and ridiculed,and this is how your society mainly through its powerful news networks reacts to criticism.
The book in question deals with hard facts and is extensively referenced yet you reject it as a joke? Did your closed mindset even allow you to read it?
Islamic Awakening Forums - View Single Post - U.S.-Israel-India Nuclear Testing May have Caused Tsunami
Other causes were because the US turned South Asia into tourist destinations and committed Western style debaucheries among themselves and to the natives on the land, the disaster was Allah's punishment. Once again, no matter how tenuous the link to the US for any tragedy that befall muslims somewhere in the world, that link
MUST be exposed.
You said that
"Imam's" had made the claims, you have not quoted any Imam's.You have brought what appears to be an article which quotes an egyption newspaper in which the correspondent is making the claim. Where are the
"IMAMs" whom you allege made this claim?
Who cares? I pointed out how a muslim, Walid Tabtabai, tried to blame US for the tsunami.
And who cares what you pointed out or what Walid Tabtabai said,are you trying to blame the actions and statements of every muslim in the word on the religion of Islam? This is very lame of you to take this line of argumentation.
And how long has it been?
Many greater nations than yours who possessed greater power have been destroyed,your time will come soon.
This clearly tells everyone that you have never been in the military and is talking utter nonsense with this overly romanticization of the mujahideen. They needed infidels' help then just like how they needed infidels' support back in Afghanistan further back.
On the contrary its you who needed the Mujahideen to do the job you couldn't do for yourselves,the cowards that you are.You couldn't even beat the Vietnamese with all your bombs and planes,because you are people of little substance.
And it is clear that you are unable to keep track of your own arguments. You are trying to associate apostasy with treason
,
So my definition of treason is different to yours,you are the one who seems to have an issue with what I believe.
that Islam under this idea has the right to execute apostates and that this is no different than countries that exectute traitors,like Salman Rushdie, or whoever dared to insult Islam, like Theo van Gogh. I do not care if a muslim state sanctioned Rushdie's death sentence or van Gogh's execution. I am asking if you support either and STILL you evade by telling me that you merely support his 'trial'. And who is going to conduct this trial? The Taliban? The Iranian mullahs? After all, it was the Iran mullahs who sentenced Rushdie. Who/what is muslim state that can lay legitimate claim to represent ALL the muslims in the world?
I have told you that rushdie and van gough would face trial in an Islamic state and if found guilty would be executed and I agree with this.You obviously don't, I don't care what you think.You obviously have a major issue with what I think again, I don't care about that either.
Lay aside the legalism for now. Islam as a religion compared to a nation-state is an invalid comparison. Islam as a religion stands alone in the belief that it is NECESSARY to execute apostates.
Islam as a religion does not stand alone in this regard, CHRISTIANITY believes this also. In fact Christians have killed more heretics and apostates than any other religion.Get you facts straight mr.
You avoided my question enough for all to see that you are uneasy about the issue. You merely support a 'trial' without stating clearly if you believe in the sentence.
Are you reading my responses at all? I support a trial and in the event of a
GUILTY VERDICT I SUPPORT THE DEATH SENTENCE
Two categorically different things. I have no problems saying I support capital punishment for murder. So why should you have any problems saying for all to see that you would support Salman Rushdie execution should he be caught?
I really dont know how much clearer I can be, rushdie if found guilty as charged should be killed,
K.I.L.L.E.D you got that?
So if a group of muslims took it upon themselves to abduct Salman Rushdie and take him back to Iran, the country that originated his death sentence, would you support his trial and eventual execution?
This really is getting tedious
You really did not think this subject through, did you?
I don't need to think anything through,its not based on my reasoning or logic, WHAT MY RELIGION TELLS ME IS THE LAW, WITHOUT QUESTION.
If I slap you, would you be offended? Of course you would. Would you retaliate in kind? Probably. Why? Because I have just threatened your personal safety. But if I say to you that I no longer like you and renounce our friendship, would you feel equally threatened regarding your safety and retaliate with violence just like how you did when I slapped you?
You see, you as a disbeliever cant understand that we as Muslims regard certain things as being sacred to the point where a physical assault would be considered insignificant as compared to the sin of blasphemy.I know its difficult for you as an american disbeliever to understand this.
This is how Islam view apostasy -- petulance -- when someone renounce the faith from his life. The idea that somehow Islam MUST be liked is so ingrained into the ummah's collective psyche that when someone outside the faith and who never have been in the faith, dared to say 'I do not like you', in the manner of an unflattering cartoon of Muhammad, we see something like this...
There is a difference between constructive criticism debate and insulting what we regard as being sacred.
Whereas when Jesus himself was insulted, not in the exact manner, but with the same level of offensiveness...
Piss Christ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
We see nothing equivalent from the Christians.
The fact that christians do not react to insults against Jesus meas nothing,if you want to discuss the standpoint of Christianity on apostasy from Christian scriptures then your most welcome.
So the question is why in the world would you want to tolerate insults from without when you already will not tolerate rejection from within, for that is what apostasy really is, to say that this religion is no longer good enough for me and that I will find something better?
We have our divine laws and we submit to them its as simple as that, we believe that our law is directly from God, that its the literal word of God, so it doesn't matter one bit what anyone else thinks.
For better or worse, the Christians cannot call upon the words and deeds of Jesus Christ to justify the prosecution of Christian apostates.
You don't know your bible do you?
Jesus according to the bible said7
"bring my enemies here and kill them in front of me" Luke19 v 27
and while your checking this verse out maybe (seeing as you seem to be telling me how nice and tolerating christians are)you would care to explain the actions of these christians?
Just to let you know these photos were taken at the funeral of a U.S marine killed in Iraq. What do you think would happen to Muslims in the U.S if they did this?
Perhaps the Taliban and Osama bin Laden should have considered the possibility that the US would respond in a violent manner. Keep in mind that in this war, first blood was drawn in New York City on Sept. 11, 2001 with 3000 American civilians casualties. But then again, bin Laden does not see any distinctions between civilian and military anyway.
The crimes of the US against Muslim countries go a lot further back than 9/11. Maybe if you took the time to read "Rogue state" you would not be so naive.
See above. Or are you of the loony conspiracy theory believer that what happened on Sept. 11, 2001 was the work of the Mossad/CIA?
The CIA is guilty of much worse than 9/11, is it any wonder people want to take revenge?
Utter nonsense. The US government is not involved in bank robberies or with Tim McVeigh. Whereas the Taliban had a close relationship with Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda.
The US is a rogue state, it controls the CIA which is a bigger criminal than Tim Mcveigh
No...It is YOU who is living in denial. The prisoners in Guantanamo Bay facility does not qualify for Prisoner-Of-War status under the Geneva Conventions.
According to your Supreme court they do
"The Bush administration has agreed to apply the Geneva Conventions to all terrorism suspects in U.S. custody, bowing to the
Supreme Court's recent rejection of policies that have imprisoned hundreds for years without trials."
^^^
Another example of you not knowing what your talking about.
That is not what I asked. You said there should be a trial BEFORE a sentence is issued. Since there is a death sentence upon Salman Rushdie for apostasy, it begs the question of whether YOU support that trial and its verdict.
I don't believe you've asked me this again. Rushdie should be tried and in the event of a guilty verdict being reached he should be executed.I don't know how I can make this any clearer to you.Ive literally spelled it out several times.
I am not in this debate to change your mind. This is an anonymous Internet forum accessible to all. For every believer of either side, there are unknown many more who are ambivalent about the issue. If you fail to support your arguments in anyway, readers will inevitably form their own opinions about your religion.
I support my arguments by quoting Islamic texts,the position I take is based on divine scriptures.For those who accept Islam as being the true religion they will have no problems accepting my standpoint.This is our way of life and I'm under no impression that the disbelievers like it. I'm well aware that you hate it but that is of no concern to me.
I'm not in the business of appeasing anyone.Like it you like it,hate it you hate it.
No different than what every other religion says.
Equally secularism sees itself as being the supreme way of life.
But I am not saying the US is perfect, whereas you are saying Islam is perfect. You cannot compare what is perfect against what is imperfect. The Christians says their religion is perfect. Therefore, as I have been saying all along, you should be arguing against Christianity, not the US.
Are you prepared to defend Christianity? You have denied being a christian,I asked you if you were right at the beginning of our discussion.
Very bad argument.
Take the US and institutionalized slavery for example. It was not in the US where the abolitionist movement began, it began in England with William Wilberforce. The point is that we in the secular West have the leeway to change and to demand others in our sphere of influence to make the same changes.
You replace one set of man made laws with another that suits the needs of the day,whatever is convenient,no doubt you will continue to chop and change till the very end.
For you with the sharia being perfect, there is either no room to change or change that are glacial.
That is not a bad thing, we believe our sharia is the word of God,why would we want to change Gods commandments?To please you in the west?
never.
You are utterly wrong in saying that we in the West are not reflective of our morals and how we apply them and one result is this gross difference...
So you stoop this low? you post a picture of Muslim women from one of the poorest nations on earth, a nation which incidentally you are currently occupying and to date have not managed to defeat,and compare them to an Image of what you believe is superior. Well Ive got some pictures for you too wise guy.
Maybe you should reflect on your eating habits?
There are other images depicting the exquisite morals of US women but for the sake of decency I will not post them.
In the short time the US have been in existance, the US experienced many changes. Far faster than your ummah have done within the same time frame. When the world sees progress so lopsided in one society but not in the other, questions will inevitably rise -- What are you doing living in this flawed Western society if the Islamic way of life is so perfect?
Your so called great nation is in self destruct mode, just as you have risen to power in a short space of time so shall you fall.Your arrogance will consume you.What you fail to realise is that the reason the Muslim Ummah is in the state it is, is due to the negligence of Muslims in observing the commandments of God.We have dictators ruling over us,dictators who are propped up by the democracy and freedom loving US.These dictators are nothing but western puppets who have dismantled the Islamic ruling system, this coupled with our own sins has led to our decline.This decline however is temporary, we will rise from the ashes by the permission of Allah.
If Islam is perfect with the depth of intrusions into the minutae of daily life, why do muslim dominated countries so technologically lacking?
For the exact reason that the commands of Allah have been neglected.We don't have one nation on earth that can be describe as a true Islamic state.We have been subjugated by the west through its proxies the puppet dictators presiding over our lands.
Basically, you declare that Islam is immune from examination by flawed mortals by virtue of Islam being 'perfect' with nothing more than your say so.
My belief is based on my faith,as is your belief in whatever it is you believe.I do not expect everyone to believe in Islam because I say so,Allah guides who he wills and praise be to Alllah Islam is the fastest growing religion i the world.Despite the demonising efforts of the western governments and media.
How convenient. It gives you the freedom to cut off an apostate's head or shoot him with glee while pointing out how USAF bombers missed their targets and somehow that justify religious intolerance.
Our method of execution is far more humane and civilized than the gruesome method employed in the "advanced" US.Our executions are for the truth and for justice,to free man from being subservient to the creation and to submit to the will of God.
Your wars are for financial gain and power,an evil and corrupt agenda indeed
For all your gloating of technological advancement you have failed to conquer the poorest nations on earth,Vietnam was a lesson that you took nothing from.For all your boasting of advancement the world saw the aftermath of hurricane Katrina.You are a depraved people with no morals or ethics.Your greed is internationally acclaimed as is your ignorance. Your time is coming USA.
