How Islamicised is the Pakistan army?

[waraich66]

Did u learn this from CNN or Fox? Even the US admits that they were the only regime able to eradicate poppy, something which even pakistan has not been able to do on its side of the border, nor the US in Afghanistan. Crime rate was a record low, but anyway its useless teaching you history. By any chance do u think Afghans themselves brought about regime change or was it the yanks and their B52's? You did not answer, why did Pakistan help install an ISLAMIST regime which implemented sharia through FORCE?

Pakistan helped Afghan to form government by uniting them , but extremisim in talaban leadership was real cause of their downfall.

Was it as bad as supporting Abu Ghraib and Bagram torturers?

I cant comment untill listen both factions.I dont trust on media films

but can't it take revenge for killing a dozen of its own soldiers and scores of civillians? Did u forget that many of our soldiers were killed by US in their bunker?

Nonsense again

it was mistake.

Its pathetic that u support US and NATO terrorists against your Muslim brothers

.


History is repeating itself , Why Allah send Halaku Khan to crush Bagdad ? No one is relative of Allah , for muslims Allah has certain laws ,when they breach these laws definately eligible for punishment.
Allah made this world makafat amal , every body and nation will get result of good and bad deeds .

Shame on you

I am ashamed on your support for terrorists . You have shown in the end by bad remarks your real face .

 

[Conscientious objector]

If it was not for Quaid Pakistan would not even exist today.Religious bigots opposed creation of Pakistan.

Just to briefly address the point that Muhammad Ali Jinnah envisaged a secular state.

If secularism is about the nature of law, a study of Mr. Jinnah’s attempts to counter the anti-League propaganda in the NWFP – where the League and also specifically Mr. Jinnah were accused (though not by Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, to whom the quote that will follow is addressed) of being “un-Islamic? – does cast a shadow of doubt on how secular Jinnah’s politics were. In a press statement made by Mr. Jinnah in which he condemned Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan’s resolution for a free Pashtun state, he said:


“The Khan brothers…have raised another poisonous cry that the PCA (Pakistan Constituent Assembly) will disregard the fundamental principles of the Shari’ah and Qur’anic laws. This, again, is absolutely untrue. More than thirteen centuries have gone by ….. we have not only been proud of our great and Holy Book, the Qur’an, but we have adhered to all these fundamentals all these ages, and now this cry has been raised…[that] we cannot be trusted.?

 

[Conscientious objector]

Pakistan helped Afghan to form government by uniting them , but extremisim in talaban leadership was real cause of their downfall.



I cant comment untill listen both factions.I dont trust on media films



Nonsense again

it was mistake.

.


History is repeating itself , Why Allah send Halaku Khan to crush Bagdad ? No one is relative of Allah , for muslims Allah has certain laws ,when they breach these laws definately eligible for punishment.
Allah made this world makafat amal , every body and nation will get result of good and bad deeds .



I am ashamed on your support for terrorists . You have shown in the end by bad remarks your real face .

It seems you missed it.Please take note


http://www.defence.pk/forums/410198-post120.html

 

[yarmouk]

First and foremost I would like to extend a warm welcome to brother yarmouk, Asalamualaykum brother

wa'alaikumussalam brother. But i donot deserve the praise. Jazakallahu khairan

 

[waraich66]

If we are going t discuss lets do so in a concise manner by bringing facts to the table and not empty, emotional and unsubstantiated accusations.

For the record brother yarmouk was not comparing Sahaba (ra) to anybody in our present time, but what he was doing (brilliantly I must say) was giving an example of a historical event which is set as a precedence,and evaluating it with the current situation.It was in response to the assertion that rebellion against the state is never sanctioned in the Sharia.

TTP or Sufi are terrorists by all fiqa because they have raised mutiny against muslim state which is haram and also committed crime of killing of innocent civilians therefore eligible for death sentance.PA should kill them all.

This is what we here in the U.K call a "cop out", anyone can say "I totally reject all your arguments etc etc" but that's not enough, you should have the decency to state your reasons and explain why and bring references,and if your going to talk about Islam then quote the sacred texts, or the statements of the Ulema

He has not given any reference from authentic source in favour of sufi and other terrorist that is reason i rejected his all comments ,which are based on his own wrong interpertations.

Another "cop out" bring your proof if you are truthful? Lets make this discussion meaningful lets try and see through the distortions and reach the truth,and in order to do that we need to be objective.

Like the Ulema of Islam used to say "bring the evidence and then believe, don't believe and then bring the evidence"(in order to try and prove a preconceived notion).

He is proving terrorist actions of sufi and TTP are right ,he has to bring any authentic fatwa but he totally failed to do so.

 

[yarmouk]

Pakistan helped Afghan to form government by uniting them , but extremisim in talaban leadership was real cause of their downfall.

but they DID support their implementation of sharia through FORCE. Taliban came to power on that slogan and they were being helped by Pakistan right uptill 9/11. Infact musharraf himself said the reason for supporting them was that pakistan wanted strategic depth against india. Now the question why is what he supported for a decade now a crime?

I cant comment untill listen both factions.I dont trust on media films

u r incredibally naive. Even Obama and Dick Cheney admit torture took place at all these locations. Could you switch the channel whats the biggest debate right now in the US?

Nonsense again

it was mistake.

i see, just because it was americans it woul be a mistake. Do you bleach your skin?

History is repeating itself , Why Allah send Halaku Khan to crush Bagdad ? No one is relative of Allah , for muslims Allah has certain laws ,when they breach these laws definately eligible for punishment.
Allah made this world makafat amal , every body and nation will get result of good and bad deeds .

And Allah told us to side with Halaku against other sinful Muslims to complete the torment? Why did scholars and Muslims fight against Halaku?

I am ashamed on your support for terrorists . You have shown in the end by bad remarks your real face .

It is u who is supporting the terrorists:
America’s Shame by Eric Margolis
The author of the above is a wellknown canadian journalist

 

[SSGPA1]

All Pakistani are Islamicised! We don't have any problem with that and no one else should have any either!!

Pakistan is proud of its Islamic heritage just like Americans are proud of the Baptist and Catholic link.

Now, Ku Klux Klan (KKK) is part of the US society like many other racist and extremists groups - does it make the entire US population racist or extremeist - NO!

There are extremist elements in the US Armed forces too but it doesn't mean that the entire US Armed forces are extremists.

Indian Armed forces have supporters of BJP, RSS and Shiv Sena but no one ask how hinduis the Indian Army despite the involvement of Col. Prohit and others in terrorsist activities.

These concerns are raised to malign the PA.

 

[waraich66]

wa'alaikumussalam brother. But i donot deserve the praise. Jazakallahu khairan

I dont believe you both dont know each other , 100% frequency is matching, same jamat bhai

 

[Conscientious objector]

TTP or Sufi are terrorists by all fiqa because they have raised mutiny against muslim state which is haram

Be vary careful as to what you declare to be haram or halal.

“And say not concerning that which your tongues put forth falsely: “This is lawful and this is forbidden,” so as to invent lies against Allaah. Verily, those who invent lies against Allaah will never prosper.” [al-Nahl 16:116].

You have already been shown an example of our salaf who rebelled against the rulers, by your logic/understanding this action of their was also haram naoudhubillah, not unless of course you consider Hajaj Ibn Yusuf to have been a righteous ruler who was fighting feesabeelillah?

 

[Conscientious objector]

All Pakistani are Islamicised! We don't have any problem with that and no one else should have any either!!

Would you include mr 10% in your evaluation of all Pakistanis being Islamic?

Pakistan is proud of its Islamic heritage just like Americans are proud of the Baptist and Catholic link.

Islam is a complete way of life and as such in order for a state to consider itself Islamic the ruling system needs to be that which is in accordance with the Sharia, christianity (or the religion which is now considered to be christianity) on the other hand is compatible with secularism.

Now, Ku Klux Klan (KKK) is part of the US society like many other racist and extremists groups - does it make the entire US population racist or extremeist - NO!

Yes but KKK are hardly representative of Christianity

There are extremist elements in the US Armed forces too but it doesn't mean that the entire US Armed forces are extremists.

Actually it is an extremist imperialist entity by any estimations.

Indian Armed forces have supporters of BJP, RSS and Shiv Sena but no one ask how hinduis the Indian Army despite the involvement of Col. Prohit and others in terrorsist activities.

Again the Indian army is an oppressive and brutal occupation force which therefor renders it an extremist body.

These concerns are raised to malign the PA.

What the claim that the PA is Islamicised is made to malign it? By that logic we are all extremists. In fact this is what the kuffar would have everyone believe.

 

[yarmouk]

TTP or Sufi are terrorists by all fiqa because they have raised mutiny against muslim state which is haram and also committed crime of killing of innocent civilians therefore eligible for death sentance.PA should kill them all.

i provided specific evidence that it is not always haraam. What do u think about Hazrat Hussain's mutiny against the Muslim state of Yazid Bin Mu'awiya [who despite his ills was still a Muslim]. Why did Sa'eed Bin Jubair and Ibn Ash'ath mutiny against Al-Hajjaj? Al-Hajjaj too was a Muslim governor under a Muslim Caliph. Why did the scholars not condemn the mutineers?

As for civillian deaths, PA too has its share of civillian deaths, which in their case is carefully called 'collateral damage'.

He is proving terrorist actions of sufi and TTP are right ,he has to bring any authentic fatwa but he totally failed to do so.

u have been al over the place. Let's take one example of something u deem wrong, and let's discuss whether it is halal or haram from Islamic perspective.

 

[waraich66]

Be vary careful as to what you declare to be haram or halal.




You have already been shown an example of our salaf who rebelled against the rulers, by your logic/understanding this action of their was also haram naoudhubillah, not unless of course you consider Hajaj Ibn Yusuf to have been a righteous ruler who was fighting feesabeelillah?

Declaration of state within islamic state may cause lot of blood shed of innocient muslims .


War is not the ultimate solution of any dispute between muslims , difference in opinion is healthy sign and should be solved through dialogue.

Present government is majority elected government , we should respect the mandate and wait uptill next election.

I think sufi will get no more then 3000 votes of terrorists in next election.

 

[waraich66]

i provided specific evidence that it is not always haraam. What do u think about Hazrat Hussain's mutiny against the Muslim state of Yazid Bin Mu'awiya [who despite his ills was still a Muslim]. Why did Sa'eed Bin Jubair and Ibn Ash'ath mutiny against Al-Hajjaj? Al-Hajjaj too was a Muslim governor under a Muslim Caliph. Why did the scholars not condemn the mutineers?

As for civillian deaths, PA too has its share of civillian deaths, which in their case is carefully called 'collateral damage'.


u have been al over the place. Let's take one example of something u deem wrong, and let's discuss whether it is halal or haram from Islamic perspective.

Your basics are not right,no need further discussion.

"Allah give Hadayat to those who desire it ".

 

[yarmouk]

Declaration of state within islamic state may cause lot of blood shed of innocient muslims .

within an islamic state, yes. but pakistan is NOT an islamic state. It does not implement Islam, and objects to others doing so. It is toeing american line and is responsible for indirect killing of thousands of Muslims in a neighbouring country. It is also responsible for aiding in the eradication of another Islamic country: Afghanistan, and installation of the puppet karzai regime.

War is not the ultimate solution of any dispute between muslims , difference in opinion is healthy sign and should be solved through dialogue.

there is something called tolerable (saigh) difference of opinion and untollerable (ghair saigh) opinion difference. Again why r u avoiding the question why did Hazrat Hussain and Sa'eed Bin Jubayr seek to sort out difference by swords? Surely they were more knowledgeable than you.

Present government is majority elected government , we should respect the mandate and wait uptill next election.

So what? Since when has majority been the authority in Islam?
Islam Question and Answer - Ruling on democracy and elections and participating in that system
Islam Question and Answer - He is objecting to our preferring the view that it is permissible to vote in elections even though we say that democracy is contrary to Islam

And everyone knows how free and fair our elections are, anyway. I met a captain of PA in 1990 election. He told me the party that one took the ballot boxes home and filled them with bogus votes. On gunpoint of course. He was on monitoring duty.

I think sufi will get no more then 3000 votes of terrorists in next election.

...and zardari would get 300? I mean the idiot wasn't even elected, for God's sake.

 

[Conscientious objector]

Declaration of state within islamic state may cause lot of blood shed of innocient muslims .

Which Islamic state,Pakistan? No body declared a state within a state,SWAT area had been ruled by a different set of laws from that of the rest of Pakistan for years before the current crisis without any problems

War is not the ultimate solution of any dispute between muslims , difference in opinion is healthy sign and should be solved through dialogue.

Exactly, but the GOP would have us believe that they have exhausted all avenues before they decided to take military action,and this is evidently a false claim designed to garner support for the current conflict. The sad reality is that the gullible public for the most part believes these fraudulent claims.

Present government is majority elected government , we should respect the mandate and wait uptill next election.

Present government is an unislamic puppet of the west, you as someone who appears to have some Islamic leanings should understand this more than most.

It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are Unbelievers.

Surah Maidah verse 44