How Islamicised is the Pakistan army?

[Fracker]

p.s. I suggest you actually LIVE in Pakistan and learn the ground-realities, rather than post on behalf of all Pakistanis while you are living in UK.

1. Allah created everything just to worship (As per Quran)
2. Allah didn't created Quranic Laws just to stay in the books, but to implement in daily life.
3. There is no restriction on non-muslims living under Islamic laws, there are christians in KSA till today what happened to them?
4. Baitullah Masoud or Fazullullah never were talib, they never went for jihaad in Afghanistan, neither they are working under Mullah Omar (Main commander of Taliban). They are been created by Anti-Pakistan & Anti-Muslim.
5. No one in Pakistan atleast think Taliban are wahabies or wahabism has done anything to Pakistan, I only used to read in this in foreign news paper, & i think those who portray this are actually trying to divide muslims, i.e. sunni vs salafi. (whats your stand?)
6. And if you think the taliban support (not ttp) should be thrown into the river then you should initially throw the drafter of taliban, i.e. CIA & ISI. Those who actually put them in this mess!!
7. Lastly, State is not responsible for the parda of the women, so they can't enforce them to do so.

 

[wtf]

2. Allah didn't created Quranic Laws just to stay in the books, but to implement in daily life.

5. No one in Pakistan atleast think Taliban are wahabies or wahabism has done anything to Pakistan, I only used to read in this in foreign news paper, & i think those who portray this are actually trying to divide muslims, i.e. sunni vs salafi. (whats your stand?)

Disclaimer: I have very limited knowledge of Islamic groups. I can't read Arabic.

That said, it seems like the point 2 and point 5 are somewhat related. From what I understand Shia beliefs allow room for interpretation of the book while Wahhabi groups would rather take the words literally. al-dhaher versus al-baten etc.

I would say (if I may say so) that if the book says "<give harsh punishment to> the thief" it doesn't mean you have to do that always. That may be the worst case punishment, but you can just jail him or forgive the thief. Clearly the stuff you quoted seemed to clearly say that the ultimate judgement is not upto man.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

the taleban have left no room for interpretation or consensus on Islamic-related issues.

they say either "our way" or "we kill/whip" you



what is this nonsense? It doesn't get anymore un-Islamic than that!!!!!!


these guys are illiterate they cannot even write their own names.....and they want people to take them seriously..

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

1. Allah created everything just to worship (As per Quran)

Allah SWT taught us (via the Holy Quran) to live our lives a certain way, with a certain set of morals and obligations that serve to keep us on the right path --whereby not only do we please HIM (SWT) but also we live healthy lifestyles; respect ourselves our family - our community - all living creatures - and anybody who is in need of help (such as the poor or disabled)

at least this is how I was raised to believe, maybe some of you agree or disagree with me

2. Allah didn't created Quranic Laws just to stay in the books, but to implement in daily life.

daily PERSONAL life.

3. There is no restriction on non-muslims living under Islamic laws, there are christians in KSA till today what happened to them?

I agree. But in the case of KSA, i blame wahhaby culture --which has kept them suppressed.

the Royal Family just pleases the Wahhaby Establishment so that the Wahhabys dont overthrow them!!!!!!


(and for the record, I respect King Abdullah because I believe he has good intentions for his country --unlike previous rulers)

4. Baitullah Masoud or Fazullullah never were talib, they never went for jihaad in Afghanistan, neither they are working under Mullah Omar (Main commander of Taliban).

i dont care about their "credentials"

they never received any proper education in their lives, therefore their credibility is ZERO

they are terrorists, and the Army will hunt them down Inshallah.

They are been created by Anti-Pakistan & Anti-Muslim.

well yes that is true. But you see, we are at the cross-roads now. We have learned that no taleban is to be trusted.

We begged Mullah Omar to stop giving haven to foreign terrorists, and he declined. I still remember the meeting in Peshawar where Nawaz Sharif and Prince Turki al-Faisal met with Mullah Omar --- asking him to stop allowing non-Afghan militants to use Afghanistan as a base to wage so-called 'global jihad'

he had other plans. Therefore, there is no difference between taleban and TTP. They represent a security risk.

More importantly, their interpretation of Islam is not compatible with the wishes of Pakistanis or Afghans people. It is a bastardization of Islam and also of Pakhtunwali secular traditions.

5. No one in Pakistan atleast think Taliban are wahabies or wahabism has done anything to Pakistan, I only used to read in this in foreign news paper, & i think those who portray this are actually trying to divide muslims, i.e. sunni vs salafi. (whats your stand?)

Wahhabism is not a sect of Islam. It is a culture imported from outside. If they want to practice it elsewhere, that is fine.

But Pakistanis by nature are not compatible with Wahhaby culture.

We are home to Qawwali music, literature, poetry and other arts. We are home to over 150 million proud Muslims who don't need things imposed on us --because we accepted Islam long ago.

Those who are non-Muslims in Pakistan are still Pakistani citizens and in no way inferior to us.

6. And if you think the taliban support (not ttp) should be thrown into the river then you should initially throw the drafter of taliban, i.e. CIA & ISI. Those who actually put them in this mess!!

things have changed. Pakistan/CIA/ISIs dont support taleban or TTP. I have no doubt that we maintain some contact with influential war-lords or former taleban commanders (such as Gulbuddin Hekmatyar) ---- but that is merely so that we can gather intelligence on their wherabouts, gather potential on possible security threats, and also negotiate some sort of future settlement after NATO withdraws from Afghanistan.

When there is peace in Afghanistan, there will automatically be peace in Pakistan --especially tribal areas. Sooner or later, NATO will have to pack their bags and go home.

It is in our national interests to finish taleban, but also help stabilize situation in Afghanistan so that we can live side by side. indian need to stop meddling in Afghanistan --- because we know they have been promoting anti-Pakistani activities in their "consullates"

this is an issue that needs to be brought up.


And regardless of what happens in Afghanistan --- we need to focus on Pakistan. The afghan refugees need to leave Pakistan at once. We need stricter border controls; highly trained police forces and good ground intelligence gathering


and of course address root cause of the problem -- which is building more schools and hospitals, inviting investors (FATA is resource rich), and forcing all religious schools to register with the state

Companies should offer cash for tribesmen to surrender their arms.....even though kalashnikov is a sign of honour where we come from.


that is my basic assesment of this situation



Pakistan is a very strong and resilient country

I know that soon we will overcome this problem, because country is united now against terrorists and Army is doing an outstanding job of securing the troubled areas and assisting the people of Swat/Buner/etc. with humanitarian works



United we Stand.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

Another good question would be 'how islamicized are the Pakistani taliban?' My guess is, barely.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Another good question would be 'how islamicized are the Pakistani taliban?' My guess is, barely.

Quote of the Day.

What you said in mere words I couldnt have said in 4 essays.

 

[Fracker]

Disclaimer: I have very limited knowledge of Islamic groups. I can't read Arabic.

No worries, Quran translation available in different langauges, if you need the versus number which speaks about what i said above then be my guest.

That said, it seems like the point 2 and point 5 are somewhat related. From what I understand Shia beliefs allow room for interpretation of the book while Wahhabi groups would rather take the words literally. al-dhaher versus al-baten etc.

Again, i don't know why people actually use Wahabi, since those people are salafis. i feel like when people want to disrespect someone then they call it Wahabi (the follower of Abdul Wahab). Don't want to get into details about sect, this could raise some conflicts or even sect war for no reason.

I would say (if I may say so) that if the book says "<give harsh punishment to> the thief" it doesn't mean you have to do that always. That may be the worst case punishment, but you can just jail him or forgive the thief. Clearly the stuff you quoted seemed to clearly say that the ultimate judgement is not upto man.

So you mean to say, if quran speak about 5 times prayer, then Quran don't literly mean 5 times prayer, could be 4 3 or even 1? There are some laws of Quran, which give some friction. But some Laws are meant to be same as mention. This is because harsh punishment leave no room for the crime. criminal knows if i steal then i could loss my hands.

Ok, even if i get agree to your point, what is the problem in puting our laws/consititution in compliance to "moderate Shariah(as per your interuption)"? In 1974, many of pakistani scholars from different school of thoughts gathered, and agree on 36 (or 34) laws which are required to run the state. y not to implement those laws?

Think!!!

 

[wtf]

So you mean to say, if quran speak about 5 times prayer, then Quran don't literly mean 5 times prayer, could be 4 3 or even 1? There are some laws of Quran, which give some friction. But some Laws are meant to be same as mention. This is because harsh punishment leave no room for the crime. criminal knows if i steal then i could loss my hands.

Ok, even if i get agree to your point, what is the problem in puting our laws/consititution in compliance to "moderate Shariah(as per your interuption)"? In 1974, many of pakistani scholars from different school of thoughts gathered, and agree on 36 (or 34) laws which are required to run the state. y not to implement those laws?

Think!!!

About the first part.. who am I to judge what the punishment for <5 is ? That judgment is up to God, as you pointed out. But I guess a Muslim can judge himself if he meets the standards he thinks he ought to.

About second part, again I lack knowledge. Will read up more and get back.

 

[Fracker]

at least this is how I was raised to believe, maybe some of you agree or disagree with me

Agree, but unfortunate, ok forget it.

daily PERSONAL life.

What about "ammar bil marouf nahin annal munqar", what about shariah laws, punishments and other are they just to remain in the book i,e QURAN?

i blame wahhaby culture --which has kept them suppressed.

I meant that region, and christians also have equal opportunity, if you don't know then try some amazon search you will find many books from arabs christians, even related to their religion. & mostly missionaries working in india (about which many hindu religious parties are crying) belong to Arab.

the Royal Family just pleases the Wahhaby Establishment so that the Wahhabys dont overthrow them!!!!!!

Read my previous comments what i think about "using word Wahabi".

We begged Mullah Omar to stop giving haven to foreign terrorists, and he declined. I still remember the meeting in Peshawar where Nawaz Sharif and Prince Turki al-Faisal met with Mullah Omar --- asking him to stop allowing non-Afghan militants to use Afghanistan as a base to wage so-called 'global jihad'

Then i guess you have forgotten, there was 98% of PEACE in afghanistan, reopening of Kabul medical college which had separate women section, or even a report got impress who went to study about women rights in afghanistan and become muslim, or even you forgot the declaration of "Jihaad" by all muslims leaders including pakistan, ksa, syria etc, & thats why tajiks, kurds, pakistanis, bangladeshis, flys to the training centers and jumped into jihaad.

You are saying 1st call, them for the jihaad in afghanistan then tell them to leave, just because they are non-afghan. Pathetic!!!

They represent a security risk.

They spend around 5 years, yet there was no security risk to pakistan, but when they leave the government and USA come into our neighbor then they become our security risk. I guess you are forgetting "Hamid karzi" & "united front" is bigger security risk to us then "Taliban". who just after joining the government start nwfp as their land. "BE LOGICAL"

We are home to Qawwali music, literature, poetry and other arts. We are home to over 150 million proud Muslims who don't need things imposed on us --because we accepted Islam long ago.

you are missing biggest ratio of pakistanis are hanfis, who even don't think Qawwali music is right, who are business men, worker, dr. etc even don't care what literature, poetry and art is?

Those who are non-Muslims in Pakistan are still Pakistani citizens and in no way inferior to us.

& how this will happen after implementation of shariah? since they pay jasia, and we pay zakat? boring old story!!

things have changed.

but this will not change the fact who created Taliban, and why they are into this mess.

Pakistan/CIA/ISIs dont support taleban or TTP.

I never said CIA or ISI ever supported TTP, and TTP and Taliban are two separate entities.

It is in our national interests to finish taleban, but also help stabilize situation in Afghanistan so that we can live side by side.

And Taliban still ruling 58% Afghanistan, which is not going to end sooner or later, so peace is not possible without their involvement. & we know taliban can't be finished since they have over all pushtoon support.

indian need to stop meddling in Afghanistan --- because we know they have been promoting anti-Pakistani activities in their "consullates"

Ok tell me who is supporting india, hamid karzai or mullah omar? this will clarify where our interests are!!

Can't answer your every line so excuse me, already my reply is completly a mess.

 

[Fracker]

But I guess a Muslim can judge himself if he meets the standards he thinks he ought to.

Completely Agree!! But What standard? If i don't know the standard how can i get into compliant with it?

 

[KARACHIKING]

islam has got nothing to do with army.Its role is to protect the country.how can we protect country by reading quran?May allah give them some sense

 

[rokhanyousafzai]

What kind of English is this? At least learn the language of your masters if you want to engage in it.





No I'm sure they make mistakes, but at least they're Muslims which is more than I can say for your kaafir government.



I don't believe this for one second but even if it were true their crimes would pale in comparison to that of the GOP.



This statement of your is reflective of a widespread disease in Pak, and that is the disease of snobbery and elitism.This is why people in Pak are not judged on merit but on status and background.This is why the poor get poorer and the rich get richer, and the sad thing is that even the poor are entangled in this sick thought pattern.



On the contrary we have seen many examples of people supporting and pleased with the Taliban.





You've had elitism and snobbery drilled into you, you've been made to think that the only way to be successful is to gain a secular education and emulate the western way of life as much as possible.
You believe that Islam is backward and belongs in the dark ages, and a lot of this is to do with the way Islam is taught and presented in the subcontinent.

What kind of English is this? At least learn the language of your masters if you want to engage in it.

What a sensible and rational man you must be. One misplaced word and you disregard what the persons trying to say. I dont blame you this sort of jahiliat is common among the taliban and its suppourters. What you have failed to understand and perhaps never will that pashtoons are their own masters and i know the language of my ancestors. We will not accept any wahabi or any other influence on our soil be it directly from arabs or arab appeasing slaves like you.

No I'm sure they make mistakes, but at least they're Muslims which is more than I can say for your kaafir government.

What is muslim to you. How do you regard them as Muslim. Raping our women, beheading innocents, kidnapping our youth and the endless suicide attacks on open markets. How are they Islamic i could list a hundred things they have done which is not Islamic like for killing an Islamic scholar and the suicide bombing during friday prayers, this is their most recent acts of barbarism. What about killing their own just recently its here in the 'pakistans war' board. They are muslim by name just like the govt only thing that the govts actions are in no way unislamic and they do not claim to be fighting for Islam yet they are not violating as much as those who claim to fight for Islam.

This statement of your is reflective of a widespread disease in Pak, and that is the disease of snobbery and elitism.This is why people in Pak are not judged on merit but on status and background.This is why the poor get poorer and the rich get richer, and the sad thing is that even the poor are entangled in this sick thought pattern.

What a hypocritical statement. You want people to be judged on merit then why is Mangal Bagh who is a busdriver not an Islamic scholar, a taliban leader imposing laws or religion when he himself does not have the knowledge to do so. That is what im saying that it should be based on merit and that should go both ways no favouritism of rich or poor. Pakistan was moving towards alliviating poverty during musharrafs era when there was good economic growth. Now why is there all the economic problems? wouldnt have to do with some self-righteous apes destroying the country and its economy. When this cancer is eliminated we can once again move towards more development and better infrastructure.

On the contrary we have seen many examples of people supporting and pleased with the Taliban.

Please do post this i would love to see what the people of buner dir and swat think of these God sent warriors.

You've had elitism and snobbery drilled into you, you've been made to think that the only way to be successful is to gain a secular education and emulate the western way of life as much as possible.
You believe that Islam is backward and belongs in the dark ages, and a lot of this is to do with the way Islam is taught and presented in the subcontinent.

Actually ive had my culture drilled into me and common sense to know that what they are doing is in no way Islamic as hard as this may be to digest for you. We need education in our country so we can develop as a nation if this is in any way unIslamic then please do provide some proof. I dont believe emulating western way of life is how we should live as ive made it clear that i want my culture to be kept intact just because you want education and better infrastructure doesnt translate into having your women inappropriately dressed you should know that pashtoon are fiercely proud of their culture and are very conservative same cannot be said about the taliban who have raped our women and shot fathers for refusing to marry off their daughters to them.

You sir believe Islam is backward by suppourting these backward people who do not represent our religion and have raped its beauty, moderation and its values. This is not Islam, Islam respects the rights of women and promotes education and moderation.

 

[rokhanyousafzai]

Mr. Yousufzai, do think it is accident that the "objector" objects only to the actions of the Fauj? Do you think it is a accident that he is active only on the Pakistan's war Board?

The "objector" has a mission here, it is to spread confusion and dissention against the Fauj and the people.

brother the only confusion he has caused is how low his IQ is. He goes around in circles with his arguements and conveniently ignores the barbaric acts of the taliban. Just a hypocrite who doesnt understand the suffering or has no worries because neither him or his family relatives are in any danger giving him the chance to sit behind a computer screen and blurt out backward posts somehow putting a curtain over their acts. He has united us and made us stronger in our resolve to fight this cancer. We are grateful for people like him for making ur stronger

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

What about "ammar bil marouf nahin annal munqar", what about shariah laws, punishments and other are they just to remain in the book i,e QURAN?

Should minority groups in Pakistan be subject to such laws when they are not Muslims?

I meant that region, and christians also have equal opportunity, if you don't know then try some amazon search you will find many books from arabs christians, even related to their religion. & mostly missionaries working in india (about which many hindu religious parties are crying) belong to Arab.

that was news to me. Jamat ud-Dawa was doing many charitable works for Pakistani Hindu & Christian farmers. There is a lot of honour in that.

But we have had isolated incidents against Christians in Pakistan and I want to make sure that we, the govt, and the police never allow it to happen.

As a nationalist and a humanist, I view all humans (especially my fellow citizens) as equals; regardless of faith.

Then i guess you have forgotten, there was 98&#37; of PEACE

the peace came, and the drugs-business stopped. They did magnificent job.

But somewhere down the line, something went wrong. They began embracing jahhalat when they started doing public beheadings, intimidations, and other barbaric activities which remind me a lot about what I was seeing in Swat somewhat recently --before the Army came in to clean up the place.

or even you forgot the declaration of "Jihaad" by all muslims leaders including pakistan, ksa, syria etc, & thats why tajiks, kurds, pakistanis, bangladeshis, flys to the training centers and jumped into jihaad.

I'm not interested in this 'jihad' anymore.......i used to be fiercely anti-American (and i still am not happy about some things in their foreign policy) ---but my biggest enemy is ignorance and people who impose their views on me

it isnt the americans doing that......it is TTP

You are saying 1st call, them for the jihaad in afghanistan then tell them to leave, just because they are non-afghan. Pathetic!!!

that's right. It was a noble cause.

During World War II -- did Allied Forces remain in the battle fields (such as France or even Egypt) or did they return to their homes countries.

The problem is, nobody wanted these non-Afghan mujahideen. Algerians, Saudis, Uzbeks, Kuwaitis, etc. --- their home countries didn't want them back!!!

At least we should have taught them something after the war was over. The only thing they knew how to do is fight aggresively. But they couldnt do a multiplication problem or know how to do anything productive in life

They spend around 5 years, yet there was no security risk to pakistan

who said there was no security risk?

I guess you are forgetting "Hamid karzi" & "united front" is bigger security risk to us then "Taliban".

Hamid Karzai is a weak man and a bit of a twit. I wont mind him being President as long as he recognizes the Durand Line (which he refuses to do) and also he stops allowing indian consullates to be used as terrorism against NWFP and Baluchistan.


If he fails to meet these demands, I'm afraid we will have to act militarily in Afghanistan next.

NWFP, FATA --- all Pakistani land. We are proud to be Pakistani. And also --- remember what Daud Khan did in 1962. He wanted to play games with us in Bajaur Agency, and we sent his joker Afghan 'army' running away like coward

to be quite honest --- i dont like afghanistan or that many afghan people. But I hope they can stabilize their country and help it blossom.

you are missing biggest ratio of pakistanis are hanfis, who even don't think Qawwali music is right, who are business men, worker, dr. etc even don't care what literature, poetry and art is?

Well that is part of the problem. We need to put more emphasis and value on the beauty of art, music and poetry, calligraphy etc.

in this day and age of load-shedding and national challenges, it could prove to be quite healthy.

Pakistan isnt just Hanafi, there are many communities.



(pssssst. it was deobandis who were against the creation of Pakistan )

& how this will happen after implementation of shariah? since they pay jasia, and we pay zakat? boring old story!!

I think paying income/state/sales taxes is just fine.

Muslims can give their zakat when they go to the Masjid.

I never said CIA or ISI ever supported TTP, and TTP and Taliban are two separate entities.

jo bi hai

And Taliban still ruling 58% Afghanistan, which is not going to end sooner or later, so peace is not possible without their involvement. & we know taliban can't be finished since they have over all pushtoon support.

fair enough, even American are saying that 'moderate' taleban should be rooted out and should be brought to negotiating table

Ok tell me who is supporting india, hamid karzai or mullah omar? this will clarify where our interests are!!

hamid karzai

he's a bloody twit, but the good thing is that he has good relations with Zardari --- so hopefully Zardari and his team can grow a pair and put pressure of Afghanistan to do more to stop the opium-production and to also stop allowing anti-Pakistani elements to function in Afghanistan


if they fail to stop doing so, then we will have to consider other options (including limited air & ground military intervention).

This is an issue of national security.

 

[Faruqi]

fair enough, even American are saying that 'moderate' taleban should be rooted out and should be brought to negotiating table

Let the Americans make their own mistakes, if there would have been moderate Taliban, they wouldn't have taken up arms in the first place. Talibanism is the extreme of Wahabiism which is itself an extreme of Islam. It's almost impossible to find moderates amongst such people because their leaders have mixed their tribal mentality with the Taliban mentality, giving them the worst of 2 worlds. The Taliban should be finished off, first weakened militarily so that they can't pose a major threat to the people, especially educators and then their ideas should be filtered out of the next generation in the new schools.