How Islamicised is the Pakistan army?

[Faruqi]

This might have been any number of criminal organisations operating within Karachi, the Taliban have many enemies, its highly likely that M.Q.M thugs orchestrated it.They have the motive of maligning their enemy the Taliban as well as a good opportunity to make some money by robbing the Christians as well as getting some perverse sexual gratification.

I think it was Taliban. The Christians themselves think they were Taliban. Unless you can provide a source which can prove that this was infact an attack by another group, I see no reason for anyone to jump to conclusions about others. The MQM doesn't go around forcing Christians to convert to Islam, which is what these people were doing. That is an act more like what the Taliban does.

The Taliban don't seem to be bothered when killing their fellow Muslims in suicide bomb blasts, what makes you think they'd care about killing minorities?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

No one has equated the two, secularism is different to atheism, both are kufr though.

where is it written that a secular society is kuffr??

Look at Turkey. They are a secular country. But as the majority of the population is Muslim, they are free to practice because they want to. Not because religion is forced down their throats (not saying that it is in Pakistan).

The beauty of religion is lost if you are being FORCED to do certain things.

And they still have the Azan during prayer times, and their Azan is most beautiful. Unlike in Pakistan (or Egypt where I also lived) where the beauty of Azan is lost because you have 10+ muezzins screaming at the top of their lungs just so they can be heard over the other one. You can't even hear the Azan properly, it's just jargon.

I didn't know I could find information about secular countries in a dictionary

Keep rolling on the floor laughing my son.

I said read a dictionary....and do a research on secular countries (in this context, Turkey and Malaysia).

those are the only 2 real democratic countries in the Muslim world.



(or is democracy 'kuffr' as well --- as stated by this haram zadeh 'Maulana' Fazlullah???)

No one is suggesting that non Muslim minorities would not be allowed to live peacefully in a Islamic Pakistan under sharia law.

Why should minority groups be bound to a system that does not conform to our religion?

Are u suggesting 3 different systems of law & jurisprudence in one country? That is preposterous. I believe in Pakistani nationhood. All Pakistanis are equal and bound to equal laws --regardless of faith.

If you do not want to be ruled by sharia law then you do not respect Islam

I want religion and state to be seperated in Pakistan. And I damn sure as well don't want religion mixed in the affairs of the Army. I am glad to see that younger generations in the Army don't have Zia-syndrome.


and by the way, I judge people by their actions and their hard work (and the results that follow).

Religion is between you and Allah SWT.

Evidently you disregard Islamic teaching and do not judge what is right or wrong by Islamic standards

You don't always need to turn to religion to know what is right and what is wrong. But religion is very instrumental in maintaining spirituality and keeping on the correct path of life ---especially during difficult periods in one's life.

, so who is a so called "fiery" Mullah in comparison?

just ask the 'FM Mullahs' who are tried to brainwash my fellow Pakistanis in Swat -- to fight the Army and force little girls to wear niqab (or face death)

100% kufr. Ask any Alim about the above statement and I'm not talking about "fiery Mullah" go to any genuine Islamic scholar and ask him about the above quote.

as you are not a member of the Ulema, and don't have the credentials to be an authority on religions matters --- I don't need you to tell me (or anybody) that they are kaffir.


focus more on your studies, your hard work, and what contributions you can bring to Republic of Pakistan.


otherwise, you are wasting time in life.


Allah SWT helps those who help themselves, and their society.

 

[Conscientious objector]

where is it written that a secular society is kuffr??

Its the secular government that is kaafir.

As He, the Most High, said: "The Hukm (judgment) is for none but Allâh. He has commanded that you worship none but Him, that is the (true) straight religion, but most men know not." [al-Qur'aan 12:40]

And He, the Most High, said: "And Allaah judges and there is none to reject His Hukm (judgment)." [13:41]

And He, the Most High, said: "And there are none who associate with Him in His Hukm (judgment)."

And He, the Most High, said: "Is it the Hukm (judgment) of Jaahiliyyah, which they seek? And who is better than Allaah in ruling for a people of certainty?"

And "And in whatsoever you disagree about, then its Hukm (judgment) is to Allaah."

And He, the Most High, said: "And if you obey them, then you would be Mushrikoon."

As well as other than these from the clear (Muhkam) verses, which indicate this category of Tawheed and with which the Eemaan of a person is not correct except with it.

And the Hadeeth, which is authentic (Saheeh) from the Prophet , that he said: "Verily, Allaah is the Hakam (ruler or judge) and to Him is the Hukm (judgment)."

Look at Turkey. They are a secular country. But as the majority of the population is Muslim, they are free to practice because they want to. Not because religion is forced down their throats (not saying that it is in Pakistan).

You cant resolve your confusion mo matter how many times I explain,in the U.K we are free to practice our religion but the U.K is not considered a Islamic country it is a secular kaafir country.

The beauty of religion is lost if you are being FORCED to do certain things.

The hukm belongs to Allah and a Islamic country must have the Sharia as its law and constitution and that is true beauty.

And they still have the Azan during prayer times, and their Azan is most beautiful. Unlike in Pakistan (or Egypt where I also lived) where the beauty of Azan is lost because you have 10+ muezzins screaming at the top of their lungs just so they can be heard over the other one. You can't even hear the Azan properly, it's just jargon.

Having Azzan does not make a country an Islamic one, Allah commanded that we rule by his azza a jal's law and that is what constitutes an Islamic state

Keep rolling on the floor laughing my son.

Do not refer to me as your son I might be old enough to be your father for all you know.

I said read a dictionary....and do a research on secular countries (in this context, Turkey and Malaysia).

those are the only 2 real democratic countries in the Muslim world.

What is it exactly that you want me to learn about secular countries or secularism that you think will benefit me? I live in a secular country and went to a secular school and had a secular education what do you want to try and teach me about secularism my son?

(or is democracy 'kuffr' as well --- as stated by this haram zadeh 'Maulana' Fazlullah???)

I tell you what, you define democracy and Ill tell you if its kufr or not

Why should minority groups be bound to a system that does not conform to our religion?

Allah commanded something and you are saying why should I accept it, like I said you don't have to accept it .I don't care what you accept or reject.As Muslims we seek to obey and please our Lord those who do not like it can and will go to hell.

Are u suggesting 3 different systems of law & jurisprudence in one country? That is preposterous.

No I have not suggested this

I believe in Pakistani nationhood. All Pakistanis are equal and bound to equal laws --regardless of faith.

Yes and Islamic sharia is the most just system that anyone could hope to live under

I want religion and state to be seperated in Pakistan. And I damn sure as well don't want religion mixed in the affairs of the Army. I am glad to see that younger generations in the Army don't have Zia-syndrome.

Yes you've told us many times what you want and Ive told you many times that you are calling to kufr, I have shown you Quranic verses yet you still reject.What is there left but to declare you a kaafir? I told you to go and ask any alim you like,Im confident that even your own Shia ulema will disown you and declare you a murtad.

and by the way, I judge people by their actions and their hard work (and the results that follow).

And you have been judged by your repeated kufr statements.

Religion is between you and Allah SWT.

Seeing ye see not,hearing ye hear not.

You don't always need to turn to religion to know what is right and what is wrong. But religion is very instrumental in maintaining spirituality and keeping on the correct path of life ---especially during difficult periods in one's life.

For you maybe this is what religion is but for Muslims it is a complete way of life that can never be separated from all aspects of day to day activities,from the state to the food on the plate

as you are not a member of the Ulema, and don't have the credentials to be an authority on religions matters --- I don't need you to tell me (or anybody) that they are kaffir.

I'm not an alim but I can tell you what the ulema have said

focus more on your studies, your hard work, and what contributions you can bring to Republic of Pakistan.

otherwise, you are wasting time in life.

Allah SWT helps those who help themselves, and their society.

Thanks but I don't need your advice.




.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Its the secular government that is kaafir.

not really.

Learn about the AKP Govt.

As He, the Most High, said: "The Hukm (judgment) is for none but Allâh. He has commanded that you worship none but Him, that is the (true) straight religion, but most men know not." [al-Qur'aan 12:40]

And He, the Most High, said: "And Allaah judges and there is none to reject His Hukm (judgment)." [13:41]

And He, the Most High, said: "And there are none who associate with Him in His Hukm (judgment)."

And He, the Most High, said: "Is it the Hukm (judgment) of Jaahiliyyah, which they seek? And who is better than Allaah in ruling for a people of certainty?"

And "And in whatsoever you disagree about, then its Hukm (judgment) is to Allaah."

And He, the Most High, said: "And if you obey them, then you would be Mushrikoon."

As well as other than these from the clear (Muhkam) verses, which indicate this category of Tawheed and with which the Eemaan of a person is not correct except with it.

And the Hadeeth, which is authentic (Saheeh) from the Prophet , that he said: "Verily, Allaah is the Hakam (ruler or judge) and to Him is the Hukm (judgment)."

Thanks for posting.

Maybe you can ask the taleban why they see themselves as the supreme rulers?

Allah SWT is Holy Divine. But he wont sort out the affairs of the State. The Government will.

And the government should refrain from combining religion with state.

Religion is between the follower and Allah. People should be free to practice their religion when they deem fit. You can advise people, but you cannot force them to do anything.


This was the wishes of Quaid e-Azam

You cant resolve your confusion mo matter how many times I explain,in the U.K we are free to practice our religion but the U.K is not considered a Islamic country it is a secular kaafir country.

pffffffffffft........so if you hate it so much, why are you there?

The hukm belongs to Allah and a Islamic country must have the Sharia as its law and constitution and that is true beauty.

well the term 'Sharia' is used too loosely. Too many interpretations of it.

Taleban believe girls should be covered head-to-toe by force and shouldnt be outdoors or in schools. They believe truck-bombs and suicide bombing is a good tactic to enforce 'Sharia'


get outta here.

Do not refer to me as your son I might be old enough to be your father for all you know.

Whatever

What is it exactly that you want me to learn about secular countries or secularism that you think will benefit me? I live in a secular country and went to a secular school and had a secular education what do you want to try and teach me about secularism

And you have seen that you were able to focus on important things like studies; integration with people who share differing views, differing cultures, differing perspectives and differing ideas from your own.

Incidentally, Islamiat is required study in all Pakistani schools -- public and private. (a good thing)

I tell you what, you define democracy and Ill tell you if its kufr or not

refer to the Webster dictionary

Allah commanded something and you are saying why should I accept it

Au contraire.

I said people should accept their deen. But people shouldnt have it shoveled down their throats.

Islam is a religion that promotes moderation of everything. Therefore, it's important to maintain a balance of faith/work/family duties/personal duties/love/committment to the nation & to those in need

As Muslims we seek to obey and please our Lord those who do not like it can and will go to hell.

fair enough. So if somebody choses to reject it, that is his own prerogative and none of your business, and none of the State's business.

thank God the Hudood Ordinance was banned.

Yes and Islamic sharia is the most just system that anyone could hope to live under

I agree. But it applies to Muslims. Pakistan also has non-Muslims who should not be bound by a system that does not apply to them.

Instead, it makes sense to have a system that can apply to all citizens under Pakistan flag.

Religion is a private matter, not public.

Yes you've told us many times what you want and Ive told you many times that you are calling to kufr, I have shown you Quranic verses yet you still reject.What is there left but to declare you a kaafir?

Declare whatever you want. I could damn care less. You don't know me.

I told you to go and ask any alim you like,Im confident that even your own Shia ulema will disown you and declare you a murtad.

Like most Pakistanis, I am moderate in my beliefs. Nobody is disowning anybody.

And you have been judged by your repeated kufr statements.

boo hoo...

For you maybe this is what religion is but for Muslims it is a complete way of life that can never be separated from all aspects of day to day activities,from the state to the food on the plate

For every man, his own.

I am proud to be Muslim since birth. I am more or less a practicing Muslim, even though there is always room for further self-improvement.

But I also have 'Aqil' which helps me decide what is good vs. bad

Thanks but I don't need your advice.

give my regards to Baitullah Mehsud.

Let him know that the people of Parachinar will distribute lamb and sweets when we see his head hanging from a telephone poll.

These lamb and sweets will be in memory of all the Pakistanis/Muslims that were killed. All the Sufi historical shrines that were destroyed. All the hardship of the economy we have faced due to fleeing investors. All the people of Swat/Buner who have been made refugees because of the terrorism waged by taleban who are fighting for their so-called 'Sharia'




death to imported Wahhaby culture. Death to the taleban.


and anybody who supports them should be shot by 25mm incendiary rounds and thrown in the Indus River.


Traitors.







p.s. I suggest you actually LIVE in Pakistan and learn the ground-realities, rather than post on behalf of all Pakistanis while you are living in UK.

 

[rokhanyousafzai]

not really.

Learn about the AKP Govt.




Thanks for posting.

Maybe you can ask the taleban why they see themselves as the supreme rulers?

Allah SWT is Holy Divine. But he wont sort out the affairs of the State. The Government will.

And the government should refrain from combining religion with state.

Religion is between the follower and Allah. People should be free to practice their religion when they deem fit. You can advise people, but you cannot force them to do anything.


This was the wishes of Quaid e-Azam




pffffffffffft........so if you hate it so much, why are you there?







well the term 'Sharia' is used too loosely. Too many interpretations of it.

Taleban believe girls should be covered head-to-toe by force and shouldnt be outdoors or in schools. They believe truck-bombs and suicide bombing is a good tactic to enforce 'Sharia'


get outta here.




Whatever




And you have seen that you were able to focus on important things like studies; integration with people who share differing views, differing cultures, differing perspectives and differing ideas from your own.

Incidentally, Islamiat is required study in all Pakistani schools -- public and private. (a good thing)




refer to the Webster dictionary




Au contraire.

I said people should accept their deen. But people shouldnt have it shoveled down their throats.

Islam is a religion that promotes moderation of everything. Therefore, it's important to maintain a balance of faith/work/family duties/personal duties/love/committment to the nation & to those in need



fair enough. So if somebody choses to reject it, that is his own prerogative and none of your business, and none of the State's business.

thank God the Hudood Ordinance was banned.



I agree. But it applies to Muslims. Pakistan also has non-Muslims who should not be bound by a system that does not apply to them.

Instead, it makes sense to have a system that can apply to all citizens under Pakistan flag.

Religion is a private matter, not public.




Declare whatever you want. I could damn care less. You don't know me.



Like most Pakistanis, I am moderate in my beliefs. Nobody is disowning anybody.




boo hoo...




For every man, his own.

I am proud to be Muslim since birth. I am more or less a practicing Muslim, even though there is always room for further self-improvement.

But I also have 'Aqil' which helps me decide what is good vs. bad




give my regards to Baitullah Mehsud.

Let him know that the people of Parachinar will distribute lamb and sweets when we see his head hanging from a telephone poll.

These lamb and sweets will be in memory of all the Pakistanis/Muslims that were killed. All the Sufi historical shrines that were destroyed. All the hardship of the economy we have faced due to fleeing investors. All the people of Swat/Buner who have been made refugees because of the terrorism waged by taleban who are fighting for their so-called 'Sharia'




death to imported Wahhaby culture. Death to the taleban.


and anybody who supports them should be shot by 25mm incendiary rounds and thrown in the Indus River.


Traitors.







p.s. I suggest you actually LIVE in Pakistan and learn the ground-realities, rather than post on behalf of all Pakistanis while you are living in UK.

the single most important part of ur post this contentious objector doesnt understand how u feel when the blood in ur veins runs dry when something happens. He is delusional and believes these guys are some sort of pure beings. They are criminals do u know who these people were before half of them were and some are still involved in the drug trade and human traficking. Mangal Bagh was a bus driver and so how can u expect people with little or no knowledge to be accepted by the people. These are the things people who live or have family in these areas know. Contensious objector either has no family or has had this backwardness hammered into his head from an early childhood thus coming across as a 15 year old taliban fanboy

 

[muse]

Mr. Yousufzai, do think it is accident that the "objector" objects only to the actions of the Fauj? Do you think it is a accident that he is active only on the Pakistan's war Board?

The "objector" has a mission here, it is to spread confusion and dissention against the Fauj and the people.

 

[Conscientious objector]

the single most important part of ur post this contentious objector doesnt understand how u feel when the blood dry in ur veins runs dry when something happens.

What kind of English is this? At least learn the language of your masters if you want to engage in it.

He is delusional and believes these guys are some sort of pure beings.

No I'm sure they make mistakes, but at least they're Muslims which is more than I can say for your kaafir government.

They are criminals do u know who these people were before half of them were and some are still involved in the drug trade and human traficking.

I don't believe this for one second but even if it were true their crimes would pale in comparison to that of the GOP.

Mangal Bagh was a bus driver and so how can u expect people with little or no knowledge to be accepted by the people.

This statement of your is reflective of a widespread disease in Pak, and that is the disease of snobbery and elitism.This is why people in Pak are not judged on merit but on status and background.This is why the poor get poorer and the rich get richer, and the sad thing is that even the poor are entangled in this sick thought pattern.

These are the things people who live or have family in these areas know.

On the contrary we have seen many examples of people supporting and pleased with the Taliban.

Contensious objector either has no family or has had this backwardness hammered into his head from an early childhood thus coming across as a 15 year old taliban fanboy

You've had elitism and snobbery drilled into you, you've been made to think that the only way to be successful is to gain a secular education and emulate the western way of life as much as possible.
You believe that Islam is backward and belongs in the dark ages, and a lot of this is to do with the way Islam is taught and presented in the subcontinent.

 

[Conscientious objector]

Mr. Yousufzai, do think it is accident that the "objector" objects only to the actions of the Fauj?

Its not an accident its because I disagree wholeheartedly with the actions of the fauj

Do you think it is a accident that he is active only on the Pakistan's war Board?

Is that such a crime, am I obliged to post all over the place? Ive made a few posts in the weapons club area if you would care to check them out

The "objector" has a mission here, it is to spread confusion and dissention against the Fauj and the people.

Wrong, don't patronise the members of the forum, I'm sure they can make up their own minds about the truth once all sides of the argument have been presented.

 

[muse]

Objector

If you honestly believe that people will make up their own mind, why would you object to the charctreization of your mission of here?

You are good for business

 

[Conscientious objector]

???????????

 

[Conscientious objector]

Objector

If you honestly believe that people will make up their own mind, why would you object to the charctreization of your mission of here?

You forgot to mention very conveniently I hasten to add the last part of my sentence. I said "once all sides of the argument have been presented."

You are good for business:cheers

????????????

 

[muse]

All sides of an argument? More Utopian babble - So all sides are right and correct? Our goals and ambition exist on all sides??

Utopians always imagine that there exist an equation of sorts, Right is the equal of wrong they argue - whereas right is the opposite of wrong, bad is the opposite of good, not it's equal and therefore the idiot notion of "all sides".

Al-Qaida and it's talib protege are the enemies of Pakistan, they have expressed this emnity by sending suicide bombers into innocent civilian populations, they have expressed their defiance of authority and taken up arms against the legitimately constituted government and laws of Pakistan - there are no "all sides" to this Objector, there are just 2 sides, right and wrong, your mission is to confuse people into thinking that wrong is the equal of right, not it's opposite.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Objector I will ask you a direct question. Forget the long posts. Forget the jingoism. Because what I hate the most is fighting with a fellow Pakistani.


but with that said ---


Do you support the actions of the taleban? Do you think that truck-bombs, killing people, waging wars on poor people, destroying schools and promoting intimidation and ignorance


---do you think all these things are 'honourable' way to bring THEIR version of "Shariat"???


please, do some introspection.


Do you know how much pain this country has gone through? And some of this pain is our fault as much it is the government's fault.

Do you know how much EMBARASMENT and SHAME taleban has brought to Pakistan?

it doesnt matter who these taleban are.


Can we all agree that they are illiterate thugs. Terrorists.


To spread their version of Islam, they resort to violence and resort to Arms against people who ALREADY ARE Muslims. And they get these arms from drugs money.

Come to the older districts of Peshawar --- and you will see drug addicts in some parts of the street. Never before in history did we have kidnapping in drugs in this area.

these are people who talk about 'Sharia' and Islam.


I look forward to your genuine response on this issue.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

and lets keep this debate civil.

No ad-hominem attacks.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Its not an accident its because I disagree wholeheartedly with the actions of the fauj

Sir, now I must protest.

We should let taleban swallow up Tribal Areas and perhaps all of this country??!!!

this is enforcement of Shariah??

God help us.


Thank GOD we have a brave Army and they are fighting taleban. And thank God that all the tribes in NWFP are uniting with govt. and Army against these scum.

They have humiliated Pashtun Secular culture, and more importantly, they have humiliated Pakistan.


I dream of the day Pakistan can once again be what we were in 1960s......When everybody was amazed how modern and developing we were. A day when all people are empowered and people have an equal opportunity to succeed in life. And never again we have these stone-age murderers existing in our soil.


Over 2,500 Pakistani citizens have been killed in terrorist attacks in the past few years. Have you forgotten about them?


And most of them were poor people at the wrong place at the wrong time. In fact -- did you know that last month they bombed a Masjid in Dera Ismail Khan (during Juma'a Namaz)


Astagfar Allah Al-Azheema