How "Indigenous" is Dhruv/ALH?

[Myth_buster_1]

THats what I am asking. They are not cheap if you buy in one pc. Its cheaper if you build "indigenously" like IN did. And regarding access to European market, you have access to subs, you have access to FIghter aircraft. Have you tried to have your own ALH? Have you been denied whats been given to IN for ALH? Ans is no. So your argument regarding access to EU market does not hold any water.

I have already made it clear. Dont pollute this thread with typical troll comments however i will answer you for the last time.
Pakistan does not have accsess to euro market as you may assume for the sake of topic but French PAK JF-17 deal is the prime example. They simply rejected it because they did not want us to assemble them at home and possibly export it. Since India and France have better ties the french did not simply want to jeopardize their ties.

Enough said and I will refrain from replying to such posts. If you wanna discuss about Pakistan then open a thread in Pakistani section and discuss your guts out in their.

 

[HariSeldon]

I have already made it clear. Dont pollute this thread with typical troll comments however i will answer you for the last time.
Pakistan does not have accsess to euro market as you may assume for the sake of topic but French PAK JF-17 deal is the prime example. They simply rejected it because they did not want us to assemble them at home and possibly export it. Since India and France have better ties the french did not simply want to jeopardize their ties.

Enough said and I will refrain from replying to such posts. If you wanna discuss about Pakistan then open a thread in Pakistani section and discuss your guts out in their.

As I said earlier, have you even tried? If not than it speaks more than any words given in clarification?
I am not discussing PK. I am questioning your logic of "assembelled-using-of-the-shelf" argument. Can you tell other countries who also doing same like us? Buying off-the-shelf and assembling locally?

And as for guts, ppl going through this thread can see spilled guts? Whos? We all know.

 

[sreena]

India= Technology Transfer
Forigners= $$$ transferred.

but even then its good nah..indians have the technology which would have otherwise taken years to develop without infringement of copyright and without pissing off the foreigners unlike china..now we can develop on that technology without fear of other countries blacklisting us for sales knowing our honesty and our commitment to legal tech transfers or indigenous development!!..

 

[TaimiKhan]

Anymore personal, offensive, troll or derailment posts, you guys would be out of the forum for good, even if those are senior members.

Can't refute a point, then don't post anything and keep it shut.

 

[desiman]

Anymore personal, offensive, troll or derailment posts, you guys would be out of the forum for good, even if those are senior members.

Can't refute a point, then don't post anything and keep it shut.

What point are you talking about Taimi ? Growler is posting nothing but total crap and has been refuted many times. When he cannot understand simple SCM and procurement laws then what can you explain to him. He continues to call Indian’s pathological liars etc etc and is that acceptable also ? The post that he started the thread with was debunked earlier on in another thread where he left all questions that he was asked unanswered. All his other thread about India’s missiles programs, planes etc etc are all based on speculation and are done without the slight knowledge of how modern day production is executed. I respect the fact that you are trying to controlling trolling on the thread but the thread that itself starts with a troll will only end with one. Trolling is also posting misguided and insulting articles and questioning the scientific and manufacturing achievements of India in a derogatory and an insulting manner. I request you to further look into the thread starter post and all the post after that which also condemn Indian in a derogatory language. As per forum rules it’s an offensive to call other people trolls but that is what is being done to Indian’s by many member and easily going unnoticed.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

What point are you talking about Taimi ? Growler is posting nothing but total crap and has been refuted many times. When he cannot understand simple SCM and procurement laws then what can you explain to him. He continues to call Indian’s pathological liars etc etc and is that acceptable also ? The post that he started the thread with was debunked earlier on in another thread where he left all questions that he was asked unanswered. All his other thread about India’s missiles programs, planes etc etc are all based on speculation and are done without the slight knowledge of how modern day production is executed. I respect the fact that you are trying to controlling trolling on the thread but the thread that itself starts with a troll will only end with one. Trolling is also posting misguided and insulting articles and questioning the scientific and manufacturing achievements of India in a derogatory and an insulting manner. I request you to further look into the thread starter post and all the post after that which also condemn Indian in a derogatory language. As per forum rules it’s an offensive to call other people trolls but that is what is being done to Indian’s by many member and easily going unnoticed.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You keep referring to this previous thread where i left unanswered? You are only lying now, I did not leave a single question unanswered as I was the only poster in that thread with the most posts. This particular thread has not been debunked by anyone other then swarm of trollers throwing mud. You are only showing unprofessionalism and nothing more with coming up such posts. Indians have so far have called this sources "unreliable" because its a human wrights organization but non have bothered to notice their research which was done throwing contacting main Dhruv technology suppliers such as SAAB Eurocopter MBDA etc. Its you who can not contribute to this thread and resorting to calling me a troller etc when I have backed up my claims with credible sources.
My purpose here is to show Indians the true contributors to Dhruv which is nothing but a imported technologies and Indians wants to call it a HAL "indigenous" product. And when I show them the true pictures I get targeted for being a troller?
I have yet to find a single post from you which has debunked my stance. Let me tell you, calling me a troller will only help you lose the case and nothing more.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

but even then its good nah..indians have the technology which would have otherwise taken years to develop without infringement of copyright and without pissing off the foreigners unlike china..now we can develop on that technology without fear of other countries blacklisting us for sales knowing our honesty and our commitment to legal tech transfers or indigenous development!!..

Indians have a history of proliferating Space and Civil nuclear technolgoies to military use. I will open a new thread for you to discuss but this is not the right thread to talk about.

 

[Gene]

All Indians know dhruv is indigenous,but our enemy says it is not....
All Pakistani know jf-17 is indigenous,but their beloved enemy say it is not...

so,why should we fight & cry for the word indigenousness....

Just live with the fact that, dhruv is made in india, jf-17 is made in pakistan....

 

[Myth_buster_1]

All Indians know dhruv is indigenous,but our enemy says it is not....
All Pakistani know jf-17 is indigenous,but their beloved enemy say it is not...

so,why should we fight & cry for the word indigenousness....

Just live with the fact that, dhruv is made in india, jf-17 is made in pakistan....

The only problem is neither JF-17 or Dhruv is Indian or Pakistan technology. Its basically imported and assembled at home.

 

[Gene]

Indians have a history of proliferating Space and Civil nuclear technolgoies to military use. I will open a new thread for you to discuss but this is not the right thread to talk about.

Ahh.... !!!
Pakistan is the only Innocent country in the world which always keep self out of nuclear & missile technology Prolifications...

 

[desiman]

You have no idea what you are talking about. You keep referring to this previous thread where i left unanswered? You are only lying now, I did not leave a single question unanswered as I was the only poster in that thread with the most posts. This particular thread has not been debunked by anyone other then swarm of trollers throwing mud. You are only showing unprofessionalism and nothing more with coming up such posts. Indians have so far have called this sources "unreliable" because its a human wrights organization but non have bothered to notice their research which was done throwing contacting main Dhruv technology suppliers such as SAAB Eurocopter MBDA etc. Its you who can not contribute to this thread and resorting to calling me a troller etc when I have backed up my claims with credible sources.
My purpose here is to show Indians the true contributors to Dhruv which is nothing but a imported technologies and Indians wants to call it a HAL "indigenous" product. And when I show them the true pictures I get targeted for being a troller?
I have yet to find a single post from you which has debunked my stance. Let me tell you, calling me a troller will only help you lose the case and nothing more.

Growler let me explain everything in very basic procurement technique called International procurement which the HAL utilizes.

In a global economy, international procurement is a term used to describe the process of allowing firms around the world to bid on contracts for goods and services. The concept has gained popularity as shipping and transportation costs have decreased due to an influx of cheap, readily available fuel. The globalization of large corporations has allowed them to reap the benefits of lower labor and materials costs while still selling the same quality and quantity of products.


There are three primary benefits to international procurement: lower costs, stimulation of a global economy, and increased consumer base. The lower costs that can be achieved through purchasing services or goods from other counties are derived from currency valuation and the effects of product specialization. Both of which are core concepts in economics.

In international procurement, industrialized nations purchase goods from countries with a lower dollar, gaining in the currency exchange. This rate varies over time, but the multiplying factor remains fairly static. The ability to purchase more with a dollar in another nation is one of the primary driving factors behind the appeal of this type of procurement.

Product specialization is the basic concept that some items have a lower cost of production, based on the natural or human resources available in different locations. Specializing in this area allows a particular national economy to offer that product or service at a lower cost that other economies, resulting in increased customers and more economic opportunities. Typical examples of this include produce that is native in one country or region, but is more expensive to produce in another.

In order to build a global economy, each nation must have some contribution or basket of goods that they can offer to potential customers. If a country is limited to just the goods that it can produce internally, then it either needs to invest significant government spending to meet every need or leave those needs unfilled. A country with no natural oil can build an oil drilling mechanism, but would be unable to use it. Ideally, market forces attract customers to the lower prices and higher quality of the products provided by the different nations.

The hidden benefit of international procurement is the increased customer base. As more goods and services are purchased from other countries, the wealth of those economies increases. This creates the capacity for increased spending, allowing customers and businesses to purchase goods and services. Effectively increasing the customer base then encourages more spending and growth, fueling the economic cycle.




to determine what needs to be bought companies follow a simple logic -



HAL utilizes its excellent reputation in the international community and has managed to get its hands on lot of technology because companies trust HAL with their patents. Its simple logic, if its cheaper and faster to buy why make it yourself. For example lets now look at the airbus A400M. Its parts are procured from Turkey, Spain, U.K, Belgium etc etc does that make the A400M a Turkish plane ?????? Its still a French jet but the excellent procurement practices of its purchasing department allows it to reduce cost with international procurement. The basic design and idea is still French but the parts can some from anywhere in the world.

International arms procurement (Open Library)


I highly recommend to you reading this book before you make another thread because frankly you have no idea about how the arms industry works. There are parts on the F-22 that come from Japan, does that make the F-22 Japanese ? is that so tough to understand for you ????????? All your post till now just try to force a useless argument, the LCH, LCA, Dhruv are all Indian products with foreign parts only because of a production decision and nothing else. Argument done, case closed.

 

[Gene]

Growler let me explain everything in very basic procurement technique called International procurement which the HAL utilizes.


I highly recommend to you reading this book before you make another thread because frankly you have no idea about how the arms industry works. There are parts on the F-22 that come from Japan, does that make the F-22 Japanese ? is that so tough to understand for you ????????? All your post till now just try to force a useless argument, the LCH, LCA, Dhruv are all Indian products with foreign parts only because of a production decision and nothing else. Argument done, case closed.[/B]

Nice example of mutual corporate relationship..
honestly Mr desiman do u work in these type of field...

 

[EyelessInGaza]

Growler let me explain everything in very basic procurement technique called International procurement which the HAL utilizes...............[/B]

All great points but I still have a few questions.

Yes, a lot of projects are based on collaboration, especially defence projects.

However, my question , based on what Growler has written, are:

What in the aircraft is indigenous, i.e. made in India, and what is the 'degree of difficulty' of that Indian contribution? Was it design? Or the frame?

Just curious, because Growler has a point, IMO.

Having said that, I would disagree with Growler when he seems to imply that putting a sustainable, replicable platform like the Dhruv into manufacturing (with contributions from other countries) is like putting together a plate of mithai.

From what I know, something like this is a very difficult thing to do, especially for aircraft, and requires considerable skills. It is an achievement.

 

[ramu]

Growler let me explain everything in very basic procurement technique called International procurement which the HAL utilizes.

...

....

Desiman, that is a gem! Unfortunate that some will never comprehend or atleast won't admit.

 

[CONNAN]

For example lets now look at the airbus A400M. Its parts are procured from Turkey, Spain, U.K, Belgium etc etc does that make the A400M a Turkish plane ?????? Its still a French jet but the excellent procurement practices of its purchasing department allows it to reduce cost with international procurement. The basic design and idea is still French but the parts can some from anywhere in the world.

AWASOME EXAMPLE DUDE