How "Indigenous" is Dhruv/ALH?

[duhastmish]

ha ha ..it hurts , isn't it.

Take my jhappi and go to sleep.

rosh - dude get a bloody life !

i got my hommies back, just watch your word you dont want us to go raat TTT TA TAAA * rt raat rut with our assault rifle !!

 

[Rafael]

rosh - dude get a bloody life !

i got my hommies back, just watch your word you dont want us to go *** TTT TA TAAA *** !!

Duhashtmish, where have you been man. long time?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

A friendly advice to fellow indian members.
The more you post stupid trolling comments the longer the thread stays on top meaning more fellow indians will read and hurt their ego.
so stop posting and the thread will go to 2nd page by tomorrow.

 

[WAQAS119]

this will tell u truth... watch till end

 

[Dark Angel]

ya right just eep on guessing while we can make any number of them we want without any need of asking other countries in vain like some

 

[Ruag]

Growler, you quoted a document from Amnesty International. What credibility does Amnesty have in military equipment development? Forget Amnesty, the report itself states that it is based on work done by Omega Research Foundation, which is nothing but a charity and human rights activist organization.

OMEGA RESEARCH FOUNDATION LIMITED

So, Growler... you used the work of a human rights organization with its own agenda (i.e. to stop Dhruv sales to 'evil' Myanmar) to prove that India's HAL Dhruv is not 'indigenous'.

Great! I applaud your work.

Now, for some credible quotes by academics who actually hold some credibility in the these matters --

Twenty-first century military helicopters: today's fighting gunships By Steve Crawford

[HAL Dhruv] is an indigenously designed and developed helicopter, something of a rarity outside the US and Europe.

Numerous other Western military scholars such as Richard A. Bitzinger (in his book The Modern Defense Industry) and Karl R. DeRouen (in his book Defence and security) clearly cite Dhruv as an indigenous development by Hindustan Aeronautics.

There is no doubt that companies like Turbomeca and IAI have contributed to HAL Dhruv. But so what? SAAB Gripen uses an American General Electric F414 engine and its PS-05 radar is significantly based British/German Euroradar CAPTOR. So does that mean SAAB Gripen is not a Swedish jet?

Please keep your non-sense to yourself.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

State of denial. I shouldn't really bother much wasting my time with a pathological deluded case. If you dont wanna believe it then you are most welcome to be an indian and live in denial. This work was done to raise a concern in EU community that Dhruv/ALH is using western origin systems and india was negotiating with Myanmar to struck a deal. Myanmar is subject to embargoes by west mostly due to their rule of law thus the issue was raised by quite a lot of organizations such as NGOs.

Growler, you quoted a document from Amnesty International. What credibility does Amnesty have in military equipment development? Forget Amnesty, the report itself states that it is based on work done by Omega Research Foundation, which is nothing but a charity and human rights activist organization.

The report has been endorsed by the following organisations:
Africa-Europe Faith & Justice Network (AEFJN), Belgium
Amnesty International
Amnesty International is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights. Amnesty International has sections and structures present in the following European Union countries: Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.
Armaments Information Office (RüstungsInformationsBüro), Germany
Burma Campaign France
Burma Campaign UK
Caritas France
Campagne tegen Wapenhandel, Netherlands
Campaign Against Arms Trade (CAAT), UK
Groupe de Recherche et d’Information sur la Paix et la Sécurité (GRIP), Belgium
Pax Christi Flanders
School for a Culture of Peace, Autonomous University of Barcelona (Spain)
Swedish Fellowship of Reconciliation (SweFOR)
Swedish Peace and Arbitration Society (SPAS)
Saferworld, UK
Verification Research, Training and Information Centre (VERTIC), UK

 

[lhuang]

State of denial. I shouldn't really bother much wasting my time with a pathological deluded case. If you dont wanna believe it then you are most welcome to be an indian and live in denial. This work was done to raise a concern in EU community that Dhruv/ALH is using western origin systems and india was negotiating with Myanmar to struck a deal. Myanmar is subject to embargoes by west mostly due to their rule of law thus the issue was raised by quite a lot of organizations such as NGOs.



The report has been endorsed by the following organisations:
Africa-Europe Faith & Justice Network (AEFJN), Belgium
Amnesty International
Amnesty International is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights. Amnesty International has sections and structures present in the following European Union countries: Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.
Armaments Information Office (RüstungsInformationsBüro), Germany
Burma Campaign France
Burma Campaign UK
Caritas France
Campagne tegen Wapenhandel, Netherlands
Campaign Against Arms Trade (CAAT), UK
Groupe de Recherche et d’Information sur la Paix et la Sécurité (GRIP), Belgium
Pax Christi Flanders
School for a Culture of Peace, Autonomous University of Barcelona (Spain)
Swedish Fellowship of Reconciliation (SweFOR)
Swedish Peace and Arbitration Society (SPAS)
Saferworld, UK
Verification Research, Training and Information Centre (VERTIC), UK

None of them are military think tanks.

You try way too hard.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

None of them are military think tanks.

You try way too hard.

Stop lurking around so much you creep me out.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

growler how much time do you spend on the net to come up with stuff like this??
Tell me one thing..is JF-17 indigenous?is al khalid indigenous?If you cannot make a friggin suzuki,dont call other country's products as imported

Remember the topic is about dhruv. dont show your superiority complex by dragging in pakistan every where.
The thread only proves over 95% of Dhruv/ALH is imported technologies.
But once a indian always stays in denial.

 

[Ruag]

The report has been endorsed by the following organisations:
Africa-Europe Faith & Justice Network (AEFJN), Belgium
Amnesty International
Amnesty International is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights. Amnesty International has sections and structures present in the following European Union countries: Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.
Armaments Information Office (RüstungsInformationsBüro), Germany
Burma Campaign France
Burma Campaign UK
Caritas France
Campagne tegen Wapenhandel, Netherlands
Campaign Against Arms Trade (CAAT), UK
Groupe de Recherche et d’Information sur la Paix et la Sécurité (GRIP), Belgium
Pax Christi Flanders
School for a Culture of Peace, Autonomous University of Barcelona (Spain)
Swedish Fellowship of Reconciliation (SweFOR)
Swedish Peace and Arbitration Society (SPAS)
Saferworld, UK
Verification Research, Training and Information Centre (VERTIC), UK

All of them are either human rights activists, or charity groups, or peace activists or arms control groups.

Wonder how much credibility they have in military equipment development. But yeah, when it comes to criticizing India, even the Propagandaministerium will be cited as credible source.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Indian syndrome explained.

Delusional Disorder

Delusional disorder is an illness characterized by the presence of nonbizarre delusions in the absence of other mood or psychotic symptoms, according to the Diagnostic Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR).1 It defines delusions as false beliefs based on incorrect inference about external reality that persist despite the evidence to the contrary and these beliefs are not ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture.

Amnesty is being targeted for not being expert in defence field. Since most of you have probably not read researched paper let me enlighten you a bit that they have actually contacted the actual source of of ALH exporters and thus completed their investigation. I bet most of you believed that Amnesty made up all of this because they were jealous of "INDIGENOUS" INDIAN TECHNOLOGIES.


Here is the list of sources.

(12) Letter from Forges de Zeebrugge FZ, to Amnesty International dated 15 March 2007.


(13) Turbomeca Press Release, ‘Turbomeca confirms its strong link with India’, Turnomeca, 9 February 2005, TURBOMECA - SAFRAN Group.


(14) Exports, HAL, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited - Exports - Advanced Light Helicopter, accessed 12 March 2007.


(15) Letter from Turbomeca to Amnesty International, dated 19 March 2007.


(16) Council Regulation (EC) No 1334/2000 of 22 June 2000 setting up a Community regime for the control of exports of dual-use items and technology, Chapter 2, Article 4.2.


(17) Andrew Drwiega, 'Boom Time for HAL', Shepherd Rotorhub, July 2006, http://www.shephard.co.uk/Rotorhub/...15149&ID=c8346908-dba2-4220-8c65-444096face08.


(18) ‘Contrat THL20 pour les forces armées indiennes’, Nexter Group, 21 December 2006.


Résultats 2009 - Nexter, en forte croissance.


(19) Robert Hewson, ‘MBDA wins contract to provide Mistrals for India's Dhruv’, Jane's Missiles and Rockets, March 1 2007.


(20) Letter from Nexter Systems to Amnesty International, dated 19 March 2007.


(21) 'MBB Messerschmitt-Bölkow Blohm of West Germany formally signed a long-awaited co-operation agreement with China during the International Aviation Exhibition (ILA) at Hanover', October 1997, Remarks, Textline Multiple Source Collection (1980-1994), 9 June 1986; 'Hindustan Aeronautics flies its Advanced Light Helicopter for the first time', Flight International, 9 September 1992; Andrew Chuter, 'India's Rotary Club', Flight International, 29 January 1997; Flug Revue Online website, FLUG REVUE Datafiles: Hindustan Aeronautics ALH, last updated 16 October 1997 (last accessed 22 May 2007).


(22) ‘Eurocopter Submits Proposal for ALH Project’, Business Line (The Hindu), 7 November 1995.


(23) Eurocopter news release, ‘Eurocopter in India – an ongoing success story in one of Asia’s most promising markets’, Eurocopter, 31 January 2006, Eurocopter Canada - News 01/31/06 (3).


(24) HAL Press Release, ‘HAL, EADS set to explore new horizons’, HAL, 1 September 2006, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.


(25) See ‘Products’, Sitec Aerospace, Sitec Aerospace - A Worldwide Synergy.


(26) Letter from Sitec Aerospace to Amnesty International, dated 12 March 2007.


(27) General Overview, Electtronic Aster SpA, http://www.elaster.com/General_Overview.pdf


(28) Letter from Elettronica Aster S.p.A to Amnesty International, dated 15 March 2007.


(29) Military Technology Journal, 1 August 2005, Volume 29, Issue 8.


(30) Letters were also faxed to Saab Avitronics and Saab Grintek. The reply from Saab AB to Amnesty International was dated 12 June 2007.


(31) ‘FPT Industries Gets Contract’, Helicopter News, 14 May 1993.


(32) ‘The design, manufacture and qualification of flexible fuel cells’, Aircraft Engineering and Aerospace Technology, 1997 (v69, Iss3).


(33) GKN Aerospace, Floatation Systems Overview.


(34) GKN Report & Accounts 1996, SEC Info - GKN Powder Metallurgy Inc, et al. - SC 14D1 - Sinter Metals Inc, et al. - On 5/2/97 - EX-99.G.


(35) Letter from GKN PLC to Amnesty International, dated 12 March 2007.


(36) The US International Traffic in Arms Regulations (§123.9).


(37) 'Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) - DHRUV', IAI, http://www.iai.co.il/Default.aspx?docID=31715&FolderID=17942&lang=en&res=0&pos=0accessed 13 March 2007;, ‘Aitech Completes Delivery of First Production Lot of ALH Display and Mission Computers’, Military Embedded Systems, 21 July 2006, Aitech Completes Delivery of First Production Lot of ALH Display and Mission Computers | Military Embedded Systems. In 2002, IAI and HAL signed a Memorandum of Understanding agreeing to co-market the HAL. (HAL, Israeli co in marketing tie-up’, Business Line (The Hindu), 3 November 2002.) In 2006, the Indian Express stated that "Israel is largely responsible for making the indigenous ALH and OFB cargo ammunition internationally competitive." (Israel supplies key to Indian defence...and CPM wants Delhi to snap all military ties.’ Indian Express, 1 August 2006. ) In addition to possible transfers to Myanmar, according to Aerospace Daily "HAL is discussing exporting the ALH to Iran, Malaysia and Vietnam, and already has agreed to give IAI exclusive marketing rights to the helicopter." (Technology will reduce vibration in Dhruv helo, officials say’, Aerospace Daily, 8 January 2004.) Amnesty International wrote to IAI on 1 June asking for clarification over its involvement with the ALH, as of 25 June has yet to receive a reply.


(38) ‘Aitech receives first production order for advanced light helicopter display & mission computers’, Rugged Computer Systems, 16 September 2005, Aitech Defense Systems Rugged Computer Systems - Press Release.


(39) ‘HAL may make tail rotors for Bell’, The Hindu, 27 January 2004; According to the Lord Corporation website the company: "joined efforts with [HAL] in mid-2002 with the objective of minimizing vibration in the fuselage of the 12-passenger, two crew member aircraft, the Indian DHRUV. The result was the application of LORD's proven Active Vibration Control (AVC) System", Specialty Adhesives & Coatings - Environmentally Friendly Adhesives, Water Based, Aqueous Rubber.


(40) Letter from the Lord Corporation to Amnesty International, dated 9 March 2007.


(41) Human Rights Watch estimated in 2002 that there were 70,000 child soldiers; see 'My gun was as tall as me: Child Soldiers in Burma', Human Rights Watch, October 2002, "MY GUN WAS AS TALL AS ME".


(42) Implementation of UN General Assembly Resolution 60/251, Human Rights Council Report of Paulo Sérgio Pinheiro, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in Myanmar, UN Doc. A/HRC/4/14, 15 March 2006, p. 14, para 54.


http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/G07/107/31/PDF/G0710731.pdf?OpenElement.


(43) Amnesty International interviews of Karen refugees, July 2006; see also, for example, ‘Myanmar: Ethnic Minorities, Targets of Repression’, Amnesty International, AI Index: ASA 16/014/2001, 25 June 2001.


(44) These include the Karen National Union (KNU) in the Kayin State; the Karenni National Progressive Party (KNPP) in the Kayah State; and the Shan State Army-South (SSA-South) in the southern Shan State, the Arakan Rohingya National Organization and Arakan Liberation Party in western Myanmar, Lahu Democratic Front, Wa National Army, Hongsawatoi Restoration Party, Mergui-Tavoy United Front, Lahu National Organization, National Socialist Council of Nagaland, Chin National Front and National Unity Party of Arakan.


(45) Human Rights Council, Report of Paulo Sérgio Pinheiro, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in Myanmar, UN Doc. A/HRC/4/14, 15 March 2006, para. 56.


(46) ‘Country reports on human rights practices: Burma,’ The Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, 6 March 2007, Burma.


(47) UN Doc S/PV.5619 UN Security Council 5619th meeting Friday, 12 January 2007, 4 p.m. New York.


(48) Common Position of 28 October 1996 defined by the Council on the basis of Article J.2 of the Treaty on European Union, on Burma/Myanmar (96/635/CFSP). "The aforementioned embargo covers weapons designed to kill and their ammunition, weapon platforms, non-weapon platforms and ancillary equipment. The embargo also covers spare parts, repairs, maintenance and transfer of military technology. Contracts entered into prior to the date of entry into force of the embargo are not affected by this Common Position." 96/635/CFSP: Common Position of 28 October 1996 defined by the Council on the basis of Article J.2 of the Treaty on European Union, on Burma/Myanmar . EUR-Lex - 31996E0635 - EN.


(49) To strengthen the Council Common Position, the European Council on 22 May 2000 agreed the Council Regulation (EC) No 1081/2000 prohibiting the sales, supplies and exports by an EU Member State of equipment which might be used for internal repression or terrorism as listed under Annex 1 of the Regulation. Both instruments were renewed recently: the Council Common Position (2006/318/CFSP) on 27 April 2006 and the Council Regulation (No 817/2006) on 29 May 2006.


For the text of the Common Position see: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/oj/2006/l_116/l_11620060429en00770097.pdf.


For the text of the Regulation see: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/oj/2006/l_148/l_14820060602en00010029.pdf.


(50) Council Common Position 2006/318/CFSP of 27 April 2006.


(51) Article 1 of the Common Position 2006/318/CFSP.


(52) Article 2 of the Regulation No 817/2006.


(53) Council Regulation (EC) No 1334/2000 of 22 June 2000.


(54) Article 4.2 continues: "For the purposes of this paragraph, ‘military end-use’ shall mean: a) incorporation into military items listed in the military list of Member States; b) use of production, test, or analytical equipment and components therefore, for the development, production or maintenance of military items listed in the abovementioned list; c) use of any unfinished products in a plant for the production of military items listed in the abovementioned list."


(55) Council Regulation (EC) No 394/2006 of 27 February 2006, http://www.dti.gov.uk/files/file26940.pdf.


(56) http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/december/tradoc_131576.pdf.


(57) Letter from the Director of Sensitive Technologies and Transfers of the General Secretariat of National Defence of the French Government to Amnesty International, dated 20 March 2007.


(58) Letter from the Federal Office of Economics and Export Control of the German Government, dated 16 March 2007.


(59) Guidelines, National Inspectorate of Strategic Products, Sidan finns inte.


(60) US Department of State Public Notice, 16 June 1993 available at: http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/docs/frnotices/58FR33293.pdf.


(61) Ibid.


(62) The US International Traffic in Arms Regulations (§123.9) explicitly requires that re-exports or re-transfers of US-origin defence articles or components must obtain written approval from the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls. Without prior written approval, India would be in breach of US regulations and potentially subject to penalties.


(63) See the User's Guide to the EU Code of Conduct on Arms Exports, 12 June 2007, section 2.2, http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf/en/07/st10/st10684.en07.pdf.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

List of Foreigner input in ALH/DHRV

Contract awarded for 20 THL 20 turrets

HAL (Hindustan Aeronautic Limited) has awarded a contract for the supply of 20 THL 20 turrets, that will equip the Indian Armed Forces’ ALHs (Advanced Light Helicopters). The order cover the development phase of 20 turrets. The first deliveries will take place in 2008.
This new contract strengthens our group's position in the field of weapon systems for helicopters.

Mounted under the ALH’s nose, the THL 20 is armed with a 20 M 621 ultra-light and low-recoil force cannon which makes the turret lighter and provides it with high firepower capabilities. This turret features outstanding aiming accuracy that enables to engage air and land targets at very long range. In the "Indian" version, the THL 20 turret is combined with a helmet sight, thus making it easier and quicker to use.

Inheriting from the THL 30’s capabilities, the THL 20 turret already equips 24 Romanian Army IAR Brasov helicopters. To date, over one hundred and thirty THL 20 and THL 30 turrets have been ordered by France and for export.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

List of Foreigner Technologies in ALH/DHRV

Indians have done a great job renaming French Turbomeca TM 333 2B2 engine to (Indigenous developed Shakti engine)



Turbomeca confirms its strong link with India

Bangalore, 9 February 2005

Turbomeca, world leader in helicopter engines, has confirmed its strong link with India, following the signing of three major contracts concerning the Dhruv. This is the result of a longstanding and successful relationship between Hindustan Aeronautic Limited (HAL) and Turbomeca which began back in 1961, when the Turbomeca Artouste engine was first licensed to power the Indian Armed Forces’ Chetak (Alouette) and Cheetah (Lama) fleets. In February 2003, Turbomeca and HAL signed three major contracts One contract covers the co-development and co-production of Ardiden 1H (Indian name: Shakti) engines: a large number of Ardiden 1H / Shakti engines are expected to be produced. 11 % of the development will be carried by HAL out in India. A first batch of engines will be produced at Turbomeca, France, and progressively most part of the production will be transferred to India. As a consequence of this close cooperation between HAL and Turbomeca, Indian engineers are now learning all the Shakti production know-how at the site in Bordes, France, Turbomeca's headquarters. The first rotation is scheduled for September 2005, and the EASA certification is scheduled for December 2006. The second contract covers the supply of TM 333 2B2 engines, for application on the HAL Dhruv helicopter, and the third contract the repair and overhaul license for the TM 333 2B2. The hundredth TM 333 2B2, destined to the Dhruv of HAL was delivered in August 2004. The Dhruv helicopters will be used by the Indian Army Aviation, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guards, depending on the missions to be carried out. The Dhruv is also considered by civilian customers. Cheetal, Cheetah re-engined with TM 333 2M2 The Cheetal (former Cheetah, equivalent to the Lama, manufactured by HAL), has been re-engined with the TM 333 2M2. The first flight was completed the 1st February 2003 in Bangalore. The replacement of the Artouste engine with a Turbomeca TM 333 2M2 engine improved considerably the light helicopter's performance at altitude and increase its pay load capacity above 5,000 meters. In-flight qualification tests have been completed and were successful. Some Cheetah could be re-engined in 2005. Chetan, Chetak re-engined with TM 333 2M2 The Chetan (former Chetak, equivalent to the Alouette III, manufactured by HAL), has been re-engined with the TM 333 2M2. The first flight was completed the 1st February 2005 in Bangalore. The replacement of the Artouste III B engine with a Turbomeca TM 333 2M2 engine decreased considerably the light helicopter's fuel consumption, and improved its useful load. World records November 2004 was a special month in the history of Indian helicopter industry. On 2nd November, the Dhruv, powered by the TM 333 2B2, soared to 25000 ft (7 520m) above mean sea level. This is the record for highest altitude flown by a middle weight class helicopter. The Cheetal, equipped with TM 333 2M2, set the world record for a landing at highest altitude by a light weight helicopter, landing at a height of 23220 ft (7070m) above mean sea level. Both the records were rendered more impressive due to the fact that the density altitude, a major factor governing the altitude at which a helicopter can fly, was significantly higher, at 27000 ft (8 200m) for the Dhruv, and 25150 ft (7670m) for the Cheetal. The records were set in terms of density altitude, too. *** Turbomeca is the leading helicopter engine manufacturer, and has produced 50 000 turbines based on its own designs since the company was founded. With more than 2 000 customers in over 140 countries, Turbomeca provides a proximity service thanks to its 14 sites, 3 subsidiaries, 23 TurboSupport Centers, 32 repair centers and 90 Field representatives and Field mechanics. The Head Office is based in Bordes, Pyrénées-Atlantiques (south-west France). Turbomeca is part of the Snecma Group, specialists in aerospace propulsion and equipment. Microturbo, a subsidiary of Turbomeca, is the European leader in turbojet engines for missiles, drones and auxiliary power units.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Rotor Head Damper

The Rotor Head Dampers for the Advanced Light Helicopter and Tiger program are manufactured by Sitec Aerospace as is the Lag Plane Damper for the Lynx helicopter.