How "Indigenous" is Dhruv/ALH?

[ramu]

Desiman, If the audience was technically inclined, I am sure you would have got some attention but with Growler, he hardly understands the process let alone the technology.

For example, in your post, you have described the V model. Just ask him what is the significance in product development and all he will do is copy paste from Wiki or Google but wont know an iota of what he posts.

Try it !

 

[desiman]

Desiman, If the audience was technically inclined, I am sure you would have got some attention but with Growler, he hardly understands the process let alone the technology.

For example, in your post, you have described the V model. Just ask him what is the significance in product development and all he will do is copy paste from Wiki or Google but wont know an iota of what he posts.

Try it !

Im sure he does not even understand most of these models and these are from my 1st year when i did my undergrad lol If i post models from my masters he will just faint lol Well lets see what he comes back with, im sure he will call me a troll again

 

[desiman]

Look where the BOM is growler, now prove to me that the initial requirements and the BOM's are not Indian, because if they are then the Dhruv and the Shakti engine are 100% Indian. So can you prove it to me now ?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

OHHHHH now i understand why you have been jumping so much after reading that article, Ok kid let me explain to you how the industry works, this is production for idiots lol -

1) The development process your talking about in which HAL initially only had 11% contribution is not all what you think. Read that last 2 lines in what you quoted kid, the development process is referring to the production module not the research one.

Lets see how a product goes through its pre-production development process -



As you can see the manufacturing engineering process or the part where HAL had a 11% contribution earlier is only after the R & P, concept engineering, product engineering and cost sourcing process. The most major part of manufacturing engineering process is the determination of the minimum requirement of add-on parts. WHY? Because when HAL starts producing these engines locally and needs to source from local identities it must know what is the basic engineering and quality standards. A point emphasized in this diagram -

Turbomeca assisted HAL is determining a list of local suppliers so that HAL would not have to indulge in much International procurement, a point that I spoke about earlier.


In the "Full development process" HAL contribution is immense and cannot be measured as a percentage mainly because research, R & P and concept engineering cannot be divided into percentages. These process are very complex and often involved a lot of co-operation between different entities. A kid like you will somehow try to give a percentage to research but its widely known in the industry that research cannot be divided in percentage points.

HAL is and was extensively involved in the Decomposition and Definition periods of both the Shakti engine and the Dhruv helicopter something that is verified by Janes. That is the most major point i have been trying to tell you, Turbomeca assisted HAL in redefining the production process so that production could commence in India at a cheaper cost but HAL is the main entity in both products. Turbomeca has never said that the Shakti engine is theirs or not HAL's and HAL cannot make statement saying that they made something that they dint. The industry does not work like that.



This diagram will show you how the whole production process works in tandem with Management. HAL was key in the first three steps and took Turbomeca 's help in the fourth step which is the concept feasibility process where the production concept is tested in a hostile environment to see if the same quality and price standards can be met.



As I have said before you have no knowledge of the production process and jump when you say something. You have based all your arguments on that 11% you saw even without researching what it meant. Next time think before you talk kid. Matter solved, Case Closed.

Sorry Desiman i hate to tell you but all this effort still does not change the fact Shakti or Ardiden 1H engine is a Turbomeca R&D and technology transferred to India. What you have posted is relevant for those only who want to know how aviation industry works but somehow you always try to fit HAL or India in these analogies. Never the less good post of how aviation industry possess works. Kindly dont show off your skills when I am only asking for Indian contribution to this project which you are trying to avoid.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Im sure he does not even understand most of these models and these are from my 1st year when i did my undergrad lol If i post models from my masters he will just faint lol Well lets see what he comes back with, im sure he will call me a troll again

Oh Mr I know a lot. You do know you are only showing off your skills which still does not prove any squat about Indian technical indigenous input in Dhruv.
Its like a Indian pilot trying to prove us PDF members that IAF destroyed over 100 PAF planes in 65 war and show off his skills about he knows how to fly a plane and we dont.
I guess i can use indian analogies sometimes.

 

[desiman]

Sorry Desiman i hate to tell you but all this effort still does not change the fact Shakti or Ardiden 1H engine is a Turbomeca R&D and technology transferred to India. What you have posted is relevant for those only who want to know how aviation industry works but somehow you always try to fit HAL or India in these analogies. Never the less good post of how aviation industry possess works. Kindly dont show off your skills when I am only asking for Indian contribution to this project.

Sorry but your post outlines your immaturity, again before posting please compare the information on your pics to the models that i posted. R & D is not limited to one phase but is actually part of every step on the way. You still fail to make a point and again do the normal copy paste. You havent answer my main question that i posted in my previous post. Please answer that until then the Dhruv and the Shakti remains 100% Indian with foreign parts. You are now going against your own saying, turning into a Pakistani pathological liar just how you call Indian Pathological Liars. Welcome to the club bro lol

 

[karan.1970]

Hey Growler.. Just so that we know we are not debating cross purpose.. What exactly is your point?? May be if you lay it out once again, for all you know may be all of us will converge to a common ground....

 

[desiman]

Oh Mr I know a lot. You do know you are only showing off your skills which still does not prove any squat about Indian technical indigenous input in Dhruv.

ohh ya you know a lottttttttttttttt lol its quite easy to see from your post that you have no idea what your talking about. You havent again proven anything and have only told us what we already do. HAL does a dam good job procuring parts and you have only solidified that point. In terms of proving that they are no HAL product, until and unless you do not prove that the initial BOM, R & P and concept engineering were not done in India then my friend you are fighting a losing battle. As quoted by Janes, the Dhruv is totally an indigenous Indian Program.

 

[desiman]

Oh Mr I know a lot. You do know you are only showing off your skills which still does not prove any squat about Indian technical indigenous input in Dhruv.
Its like a Indian pilot trying to prove us PDF members that IAF destroyed over 100 PAF planes in 65 war and show off his skills about he knows how to fly a plane and we dont.
I guess i can use indian analogies sometimes.

 

[ramu]

As an observer, it is totally developed by foreigners on Dhruv, only India put assembles parts.

Growler proved very excellent points.......... More good examples would be PAKFA "indigenous" by Russia, Aircraft carrier "indigenous" refurbished by Russia, and India received zero in hands technology for $$$. It is good what it is.

Enough proofs, bro!...............

Oh here is the jury !

 

[Kinetic]

As an observer, it is totally developed by foreigners on Dhruv, only India put assembles parts.

Growler proved very excellent points.......... More good examples would be PAKFA "indigenous" by Russia, Aircraft carrier "indigenous" refurbished by Russia, and India received zero in hands technology for $$$. It is good what it is.

Enough proofs, bro!...............

OK enjoy!!!

Talking about Dhruv's engine but which Chinese chopper's engine is Chinese? Dhruv's Shakti is based on Adriden but Shakti is new and more powerful than Ardiden. Its called Ardiden 1H by Turbomeca and Shakti by HAL.

From HAL website,,,

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited


“The Shakti engine, developed jointly by Turbomeca (French) and HAL, develops almost 30 per cent more power compared to the TM 333-2B2 engine, with 19 per cent content of Indian development,” Mr Baweja said. The new engine is likely to get the certification by January next year, after carriage trials, butt firing and air firing besides various other trials.


HAL/Turbomeca Shakti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The HAL/Turbomeca Shakti (called the Ardiden 1H by Turbomeca) is a turboshaft helicopter engine jointly developed by India and France.
The development of the Shakti/Ardiden 1H project was initiated in 1999 by the two companies to power the HAL Dhruv helicopter. However, several factors including the US embargo following India's 1998 nuclear tests forced the project to run behind schedule. Hence, early models of the Dhruv used the less powerful Turbomeca TM 333-2B2 engine as a contigency. The first test flight of the Dhruv with the new Shakti engine took place on 16 August 2007[2]. By late 2007, HAL started fitting the Shakti engines for Dhruvs produced from then.




In this world only for Pakistanis Dhruv is not indigenous!! If everything is on market then why they don't built one for them selves? For them Gorshkov is not also 'indigenous'? When did Gorshkov became indigenous? Desiman you are wasting of time. He cannot understand.

Let them dream, it will not change the capabilities of Dhruv. And to my fellow Indians, can we keep this apart?

 

[CONNAN]

just lock this dam thread

nothing but indo-pak e-WAR

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Sorry but your post outlines your immaturity, again before posting please compare the information on your pics to the models that i posted. R & D is not limited to one phase but is actually part of every step on the way. You still fail to make a point and again do the normal copy paste. You havent answer my main question that i posted in my previous post. Please answer that until then the Dhruv and the Shakti remains 100% Indian with foreign parts. You are now going against your own saying, turning into a Pakistani pathological liar just how you call Indian Pathological Liars. Welcome to the club bro lol

You have only showed off your work skills and failed to prove why Ardiden 1H1 is 100% indian when its a total Turbomeca product produced in France. The only indigenous part of India is the some parts that will be assembled in india for their own domestic uses when France transfers technologies after Indian engineers are trained in France.
Stop jumping up and down with your diagrams that you learned from your work experiences which is total irrelevant to the subject.
Unfortunately your knowledge is almost zero when it comes to indian input in Dhruv which you have bloodily over exaggerated to satisfy your fellow indian egos who are in state of denial and your personal lame attacks is a big evident that you have lost the argument. If you were man enough you would have kept your words but you have proved other wise.

 

[Prowler]

The same guy who is bashing about the indigenous-ness if HAL Dhruv said in a thread that The Chengdu J-7 is indigenous Chinese development.I guess you all know who that dumb fellow is so guy the morale of the story is that the guy here is damn jealous about our indigenous products and want's to bash it,but hey the funny thing is doing so won't make the Dhruv any less indigenous than what it actually is

 

[Ecstacy]

You have only showed off your work skills and failed to prove why Ardiden 1H1 is 100% indian when its a total Turbomeca product produced in France. The only indigenous part of India is the some parts that will be assembled in india for their own domestic uses when France transfers technologies after Indian engineers are trained in France.
Stop jumping up and down with your diagrams that you learned from your work experiences which is total irrelevant to the subject.
Unfortunately your knowledge is almost zero when it comes to indian input in Dhruv which you have bloodily over exaggerated to satisfy your fellow indian egos who are in state of denial and your personal lame attacks is a big evident that you have lost the argument. If you were man enough you would have kept your words but you have proved other wise.

U sound like u r passing a verdict here.U need to realize that u neither have the technical know-how to actually understand what desiman has tried to explain about R & D phase nor the mental capability to understand the language of reasoning.
Back up ur posts with some data and maybe we will take u a bit more seriously other than just cheap entertainment.
Stop living in a fool's World,cool ur brain down,practice some Yoga,try to gain some more knowledge about the topic before even talking about it,and then come back to post.Im sure it ll help.