How Indian Insiders Saw 1965 War?
- Thread starter RiazHaq
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India & Pakistan were there, where it was........................and so was Kashmir.............If you say India was the Aggressor then Pakistan well defended, but if Pakistan was the aggressor India too well defended its territories......................
Srinivas
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Well said mate. The author in the article is discussing about the general not being adventurous or agressive, Here the invading force failed to take advantage and allowed time for the enemy to take advantage and reinforce. The agreement took place in Tashkent in Russia, the then USSR, an ally of India which indicates it was India who dictated the outcome.
By that time Indian forces encountered a fierce resistance at Sialkot put up by the arriving reinforcements, had the general been adventurous Indian forces should have captured Lahore.
Eventually Pakistan was out of supplies and cannot withstand war situation after 15 days of war and agreed to peace agreement.
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rockstarIN
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There are a lot of similarities in 1965 & Kargil.
Both failed very badly though India was less aggressive in 1999.
Both failed very badly though India was less aggressive in 1999.
niaz
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I was a student in London at that time. I read about the war in the UK newspapers and also went Pakistan High Commission in Lowndes Square ( at that time one of the nearby buildings served as a hostel for Pak students) where one could get hold of a couple days old Pakistani Newspapers.
After 47 years and knowing a lot more about what actually happened, I can safely say that we were fed on lies and propaganda. Since Indians (at least those who live in North India) are not that much different in their behaviour patterns; I have no doubt that as there were as many lies and venom in their reporting.
Ayaz Amir was in the Army but took an early release. IMO the following article is very apt.
Of times lost
Ayaz Amir
Friday, September 07, 2012
From Print Edition
Islamabad diary
Back from a trip to Amritsar and Delhi on Wednesday evening, and too tired to go on to Chakwal as I had meant to PIA never disappointing, the flight from Delhi late by three hours I sought refuge under the roof of the Avari, where my poverty usually takes me when in the favoured city of the Emperor Jahangir.
And as I sat down to write this on Thursday morning, from somewhere down below on the Mall it will always be the Mall whatever patriotic name we give it came the ever-enchanting voice of Noor Jahan the Second, the first being the royal consort of Jahangir. She was singing that haunting song, Rah-e-haq ke shaheedo..., a tribute to the martyrs of the 1965 war, and it came suddenly to me that this was the Defence of Pakistan Day, an anniversary remembered with less and less fervour as the years pass...not because respect for our fighting soldiers has in any way diminished but because the truth about that conflict is now more widely understood.
It was a war that Pakistan did not seek; it was a war into which it stumbled. The hawks the two leading ones being Foreign Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and the 12 Division Commander, Maj Gen Akhtar Hussain Malik forgot to make the little calculation that any adventure undertaken in Kashmir would impel or tempt India to straighten out the balance somewhere else, at a time and place of its choosing.
When our Kashmir adventure turned into a serious threat to Indian forces in Kashmir, to no ones surprise except ours Indian forces crossed the international border on the front stretching from Sialkot to Lahore.
Our soldiers fought bravely, at places magnificently, as did junior officers up to the level of battalion commanders. A few brigadiers too distinguished themselves. (The Indian official account of the war, which can be read on the net, generously mentions the performance of some of our fighting units.) And of course the air force acquitted itself superbly. But if one looks for Mansteins in the higher echelons of command one is likely to be disappointed. There were none, not one strategic manoeuvre worth remembering.
Our self-appointed field marshal, Ayub Khan Tareen, lived to rue his blunder. After the war he was no longer the same man and his grip on national affairs weakened. The supreme irony of course was that Bhutto whose role in pushing the war was second to none exploited the outcome, and the subsequent Tashkent agreement, to spread the insinuation that had not Ayub chickened out our forces would have won a signal triumph...which of course was complete nonsense.
Premier Chou En-lai counselled a bewildered field marshal to conduct a guerrilla war, vacating cities if they had to be vacated and conducting a war from behind every bush and boulder. But he could have been preaching to the mountains. The ceasefire when it came, with no little pushing by the superpowers, came not a moment too soon for our exhausted high command.
But for years and years the mythology persisted, and it was woven into a national legend, that India was out to destroy Pakistan and would have succeeded but for our brave armed forces. The Defence of Pakistan Day commemorates this historiography.
This mythology would not have mattered if it had not led to lasting, and baleful, consequences. We had a fairly open relationship with India until then. But with the war the barriers went up and all ties were cut; defence spending sharply increased; more divisions were raised. The ramparts of the national security state rose higher. And barriers went up in our minds as well. India was the enemy and this doctrine superseded all others.
We had been doing fairly well economically, ahead then of such states as Malaysia and South Korea. The war put us off the rails completely. (The only good to come of it were the war songs of Noor Jahan, which are still a marvel to listen to.) With the 1971 war the dogmas learned from the 1965 conflict were reinforced.
Strange, is it not, that the brightest politician of his age should have been the prime carrier of this policy of revanchism and hate? We will fight for a thousand years, was one of his clarion calls, anti-Indianism a plank nay, an essential component of his extraordinary success in Punjab in the 1970 elections. And it was Punjab which catapulted him to national power, not Sindh.
Think again...Punjab dyed in the hues of chauvinism, the country as a whole wedded to the notion of undying hostility towards India...the high priest of this doctrine was the secular, de luxe whisky-sipping (occasionally guzzling) Bhutto. Who listens to the boring lectures, or the stale oratory, of the custodians of the two-nation theory headquartered permanently in Lahore? Bhuttos oratory had a mesmeric effect on the Punjabi mind. And his oratory had two key components: pseudo-revolutionism and jingoistic nationalism.
Only now are the barriers raised then coming down slowly, not because of any fresh dawn of enlightenment but the pressure of cruel circumstances. Our army is engaged in no fake adventure on the eastern front. It is caught in a real and brutal war on our western marches, battling an enemy all the more sinister because the strength and staying power of that enemy comes not from evil Jew or conniving Hindu but from within our own ranks.
Our Indian wars, no matter the causes, were simple, black-and-white affairs. We knew who the army was and Noor Jahan had no trouble singing the glories of our valour, real or imaginary. The war we are now engaged in is so much more complex because the enemy is not only the visible enemy we see, cutting the throats of our soldiers in the name of Islam. The enemy is also our own confusion which still cannot make out what is at stake.
At stake is the nations soul, its direction. We emerge from the smoke and fire of this conflict and we can hope for national salvation. We lose, or remain victims of confusion, and we might as well seek a confederation with Somalia or the Sudan (with apologies to both these nations).
A Pakistan which has forsaken the tolerance sought to be inculcated by its founding fathers, a Pakistan losing no sleep at the persecution of its minorities and the killing of Shias, a country which can countenance the victimisation of an Aasia Bibi or a Rimsha Masih, is a country in dire need of asking some hard questions of itself. All injustice is bad; injustice perpetrated in the name of religion is infinitely worse.
We can be such hypocrites. Are the lives of the Caliphs dead pieces of parchment or living examples to follow? What would the great Omar have done if after a short absence from Makkah he had come to know of the plight of a young Christian girl, Rimsha Masih?
There and then he would have fired the interior minister, the Rehman Malik of his time, and asked the inspector general of police, the kotwal, to run round the city walls with a knapsack on his back. And he would have carried the girl Rimsha on his shoulders to her house and asked her mother if they had enough to eat, and if anything was found wanting, on bended knee he would have cried for Allahs forgiveness. For was it not Omar who said that if a dog went hungry by the banks of the Euphrates he, the Caliph, would be asked about it on the Day of Judgment?
The Islam which spread so fast from the sands of the Hejaz was a thing of achievement and glory. And to think what we have made of it in this republic founded in the name of Islam?
Email: winlust@yahoo.com
Of times lost - Ayaz Amir
After 47 years and knowing a lot more about what actually happened, I can safely say that we were fed on lies and propaganda. Since Indians (at least those who live in North India) are not that much different in their behaviour patterns; I have no doubt that as there were as many lies and venom in their reporting.
Ayaz Amir was in the Army but took an early release. IMO the following article is very apt.
Of times lost
Ayaz Amir
Friday, September 07, 2012
From Print Edition
Islamabad diary
Back from a trip to Amritsar and Delhi on Wednesday evening, and too tired to go on to Chakwal as I had meant to PIA never disappointing, the flight from Delhi late by three hours I sought refuge under the roof of the Avari, where my poverty usually takes me when in the favoured city of the Emperor Jahangir.
And as I sat down to write this on Thursday morning, from somewhere down below on the Mall it will always be the Mall whatever patriotic name we give it came the ever-enchanting voice of Noor Jahan the Second, the first being the royal consort of Jahangir. She was singing that haunting song, Rah-e-haq ke shaheedo..., a tribute to the martyrs of the 1965 war, and it came suddenly to me that this was the Defence of Pakistan Day, an anniversary remembered with less and less fervour as the years pass...not because respect for our fighting soldiers has in any way diminished but because the truth about that conflict is now more widely understood.
It was a war that Pakistan did not seek; it was a war into which it stumbled. The hawks the two leading ones being Foreign Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and the 12 Division Commander, Maj Gen Akhtar Hussain Malik forgot to make the little calculation that any adventure undertaken in Kashmir would impel or tempt India to straighten out the balance somewhere else, at a time and place of its choosing.
When our Kashmir adventure turned into a serious threat to Indian forces in Kashmir, to no ones surprise except ours Indian forces crossed the international border on the front stretching from Sialkot to Lahore.
Our soldiers fought bravely, at places magnificently, as did junior officers up to the level of battalion commanders. A few brigadiers too distinguished themselves. (The Indian official account of the war, which can be read on the net, generously mentions the performance of some of our fighting units.) And of course the air force acquitted itself superbly. But if one looks for Mansteins in the higher echelons of command one is likely to be disappointed. There were none, not one strategic manoeuvre worth remembering.
Our self-appointed field marshal, Ayub Khan Tareen, lived to rue his blunder. After the war he was no longer the same man and his grip on national affairs weakened. The supreme irony of course was that Bhutto whose role in pushing the war was second to none exploited the outcome, and the subsequent Tashkent agreement, to spread the insinuation that had not Ayub chickened out our forces would have won a signal triumph...which of course was complete nonsense.
Premier Chou En-lai counselled a bewildered field marshal to conduct a guerrilla war, vacating cities if they had to be vacated and conducting a war from behind every bush and boulder. But he could have been preaching to the mountains. The ceasefire when it came, with no little pushing by the superpowers, came not a moment too soon for our exhausted high command.
But for years and years the mythology persisted, and it was woven into a national legend, that India was out to destroy Pakistan and would have succeeded but for our brave armed forces. The Defence of Pakistan Day commemorates this historiography.
This mythology would not have mattered if it had not led to lasting, and baleful, consequences. We had a fairly open relationship with India until then. But with the war the barriers went up and all ties were cut; defence spending sharply increased; more divisions were raised. The ramparts of the national security state rose higher. And barriers went up in our minds as well. India was the enemy and this doctrine superseded all others.
We had been doing fairly well economically, ahead then of such states as Malaysia and South Korea. The war put us off the rails completely. (The only good to come of it were the war songs of Noor Jahan, which are still a marvel to listen to.) With the 1971 war the dogmas learned from the 1965 conflict were reinforced.
Strange, is it not, that the brightest politician of his age should have been the prime carrier of this policy of revanchism and hate? We will fight for a thousand years, was one of his clarion calls, anti-Indianism a plank nay, an essential component of his extraordinary success in Punjab in the 1970 elections. And it was Punjab which catapulted him to national power, not Sindh.
Think again...Punjab dyed in the hues of chauvinism, the country as a whole wedded to the notion of undying hostility towards India...the high priest of this doctrine was the secular, de luxe whisky-sipping (occasionally guzzling) Bhutto. Who listens to the boring lectures, or the stale oratory, of the custodians of the two-nation theory headquartered permanently in Lahore? Bhuttos oratory had a mesmeric effect on the Punjabi mind. And his oratory had two key components: pseudo-revolutionism and jingoistic nationalism.
Only now are the barriers raised then coming down slowly, not because of any fresh dawn of enlightenment but the pressure of cruel circumstances. Our army is engaged in no fake adventure on the eastern front. It is caught in a real and brutal war on our western marches, battling an enemy all the more sinister because the strength and staying power of that enemy comes not from evil Jew or conniving Hindu but from within our own ranks.
Our Indian wars, no matter the causes, were simple, black-and-white affairs. We knew who the army was and Noor Jahan had no trouble singing the glories of our valour, real or imaginary. The war we are now engaged in is so much more complex because the enemy is not only the visible enemy we see, cutting the throats of our soldiers in the name of Islam. The enemy is also our own confusion which still cannot make out what is at stake.
At stake is the nations soul, its direction. We emerge from the smoke and fire of this conflict and we can hope for national salvation. We lose, or remain victims of confusion, and we might as well seek a confederation with Somalia or the Sudan (with apologies to both these nations).
A Pakistan which has forsaken the tolerance sought to be inculcated by its founding fathers, a Pakistan losing no sleep at the persecution of its minorities and the killing of Shias, a country which can countenance the victimisation of an Aasia Bibi or a Rimsha Masih, is a country in dire need of asking some hard questions of itself. All injustice is bad; injustice perpetrated in the name of religion is infinitely worse.
We can be such hypocrites. Are the lives of the Caliphs dead pieces of parchment or living examples to follow? What would the great Omar have done if after a short absence from Makkah he had come to know of the plight of a young Christian girl, Rimsha Masih?
There and then he would have fired the interior minister, the Rehman Malik of his time, and asked the inspector general of police, the kotwal, to run round the city walls with a knapsack on his back. And he would have carried the girl Rimsha on his shoulders to her house and asked her mother if they had enough to eat, and if anything was found wanting, on bended knee he would have cried for Allahs forgiveness. For was it not Omar who said that if a dog went hungry by the banks of the Euphrates he, the Caliph, would be asked about it on the Day of Judgment?
The Islam which spread so fast from the sands of the Hejaz was a thing of achievement and glory. And to think what we have made of it in this republic founded in the name of Islam?
Email: winlust@yahoo.com
Of times lost - Ayaz Amir
ajtr
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Coz that operation was carriesd out by non state actors/mujaheedins/kashmiri freedom fighters.....Why Pakistan never want to talk about Operation Gibraltar.
Why Pakistan never want to talk about Operation Gibraltar.
Who told you that. Start talking.
INDIC
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See, some body has already started talking and punching key without giving any thought to what is being typed.
I told you. Who stops you. Start talking.
Good find.
Keep at it.
ajtr
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Ofcourse i being pakistani voice can take credit of speaking about it..............
ajtr
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what you result got by your imagination and pretension after closing your eyes......
Last Hope
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Being an aggressor, Pakistan's aim was to liberate Kashmir from Indian occupation. But they failed.
Indian aim was to take over Lahore and surrounding areas, but they failed leaving huge chunks of armor lying in Punjab with Indian soldiers abandoning tanks and running back. Hence Indian aim failed too.
If it were not for Kashmir, 1965 would have been a victory for us. Other efforts like aerial war and stopping huge forces from entering Lahore was tremendous.
Indian aim was to take over Lahore and surrounding areas, but they failed leaving huge chunks of armor lying in Punjab with Indian soldiers abandoning tanks and running back. Hence Indian aim failed too.
If it were not for Kashmir, 1965 would have been a victory for us. Other efforts like aerial war and stopping huge forces from entering Lahore was tremendous.
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