How good the Mig-29 UPG/SMT against the F-16 Blk 50/52+ ??

[trident2010]

Mig-29 was developed as a direct response for US F-16. Both of these fighters are now upgraded to several versions that make them 4th Gen fighter.

The main specifications for these jets are as follows:

Mig-29 UPG/SMT:

General characteristics

• Crew: 1 or 2
• Length: 17.37 m (57 ft)
• Wingspan: 11.4 m (37 ft 3 in)
• Height: 4.73 m (15 ft 6 in)
• Wing area: 38 m² (409 ft²)
• Empty weight: 13,380 kg (29,498 lb)
• Loaded weight: 17,500 kg (38,581 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 22,400 kg (49,383.54 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × Klimov RD-33MK afterburning turbofans, 9,000 kgf (88.26 kN, 19,840 lbf) each

Performance

• Maximum speed:
  • High altitude: Mach 2.35 (2,600 km/h, 1,491 mph)
  • Low altitude: Mach 1.4 (1,500 km/h, 932 mph)
• Ferry range: 2,000 km(1,240 mi)/ 3,000 km (1,860 mi) (twin seat)
• Service ceiling: 17,500 m (57,500 ft)
• Rate of climb: 330 m/s[34] (65,000 ft/min)
• Wing loading: 442 kg/m² (90.5 lb/ft²)
• Thrust/weight: 1.02

Armament

• 1 × 30 mm GSh-30-1 cannon with 150 rounds
• 8 under wing, weapons hardpoints plus a centerline hardpoint for up to 5,500 kg (12,125 lb) of external fuel and ordnance
• Air-air missiles: 8 × R-73E, 8 × R-77 (RVV-AE), 4 × R-27
• Air-surface missiles: 4 × Kh-29T(TE), 4 × Kh-31A, 4 × Kh-31P, Kh-35E
• Guided bombs: 4 × KAB-500Kr
• Unguided bombs: 4 × FAB-500
• Cluster bombs: 4 × RBK-250, 4 × RBK-500, 4 × RBK-750
• Unguided rocket pods: 4 × S-8 rocket pod, 6 × S-25 rockets

Avionics

• Phazotron Zhuk-ME radar

F-16 Blk 50/52+:

General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 49 ft 5 in (15.06 m)
• Wingspan: 32 ft 8 in (9.96 m)
• Height: 16 ft (4.88 m)
• Wing area: 300 ft² (27.87 m²)
• Airfoil: NACA 64A204 root and tip
• Empty weight: 18,900 lb (8,570 kg)
• Loaded weight: 26,500 lb (12,000 kg)
• Max. takeoff weight: 42,300 lb (19,200 kg)
• Powerplant: 1 × F110-GE-100 afterburning turbofan
  • Dry thrust: 17,155 lbf (76.3 kN)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 28,600 lbf (127 kN)

Performance

• Maximum speed:
  • At sea level: Mach 1.2 (915 mph, 1,470 km/h)[57]
  • At altitude: Mach 2[1] (1,320 mph, 2,120 km/h) clean configuration
• Combat radius: 340 mi (295 nmi, 550 km)on a hi-lo-hi mission with four 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs
• Ferry range: 2,280 nmi(2,620 mi, 4,220 km)with drop tanks
• Service ceiling: 50,000+ ft[1] (15,240+ m)
• Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (254 m/s)
• Wing loading: 88.3 lb/ft² (431 kg/m²)
• Thrust/weight: 1.095

Armament

• Guns: 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) M61 Vulcan 6-barreled Gatling cannon, 511 rounds
• Hardpoints: 2× wing-tip Air-to-air missile launch rails, 6× under-wing & 3× under-fuselage pylon stations holding up to 17,000 lb (7,700 kg) of disposable stores
• Rockets:
  • 4×LAU-61/LAU-68 rocket pods (each with 19× /7× Hydra 70 mm rockets, respectively)
  • 4×LAU-5003 rocket pods (each with 19× CRV7 70 mm rockets)
  • 4×LAU-10 rocket pods (each with 4× Zuni 127 mm rockets)
• Missiles:
  • Air-to-air missiles:
    • 2× AIM-7 Sparrow
    • 6× AIM-9 Sidewinder
    • 6× AIM-120 AMRAAM
    • 6× IRIS-T
    • 6× Python-4
  • Air-to-ground missiles:
    • 6× AGM-65 Maverick
    • 4× AGM-88 HARM
    • AGM-158 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile (JASSM)
  • Anti-ship missiles:
    • 2× AGM-84 Harpoon
    • 4× AGM-119 Penguin
• Bombs:
  • 8× CBU-87 Combined Effects Munition
  • 8× CBU-89 Gator mine
  • 8× CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon
  • 4× Mark 84 general-purpose bombs
  • 8× Mark 83 GP bombs
  • 12× Mark 82 GP bombs
  • 8× GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb (SDB)
  • 4× GBU-10 Paveway II
  • 6× GBU-12 Paveway II
  • 4× GBU-24 Paveway III
  • 4× GBU-27 Paveway III
  • 4× Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) series
  • 4× AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW)
  • Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD)
  • B61 nuclear bomb

• Others:
  • SUU-42A/A Flares/Infrared decoys dispenser pod and chaff pod or
  • AN/ALQ-131 & AN/ALQ-184 ECM pods or
  • LANTIRN, Lockheed Martin Sniper XR & LITENING targeting pods or
  • up to 3× 300/330/370/600 US gallon Sargent Fletcher drop tanks for ferry flight/extended range/loitering time or
  • UTC Aerospace DB-110 long range EO/IR sensor pod on centerline

Avionics

• AN/APG-68 radar
• MIL-STD-1553 bus

Source: Wikipedia


From the above specifications it is clear that Mig-29smt/upg has better range, speed, ceiling and rate of climb. Both can carry various A2A and A2G armaments. Not sure about the difference in radars Phazotron Zhuk-ME and AN/APG-68.


Can it be safe to say that both are equally potent and one cannot be more superior to the other?

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

I think the MIG29 was more of a response to the F15.

 

[trident2010]

I think the MIG29 was more of a response to the F15.

Su-27 was for F-15 and Mig-29 for F-16 ..

 

[sancho]

Can it be safe to say that both are equally potent and one cannot be more superior to the other?

Better specs from the manufacturere websites:

Mig 29UPG:
- MiG-29SMT, upgraded MiG-29UB aircraft

F16 B52+:
http://s1.directupload.net/images/130120/nzfj78af.jpg


In general one can say that the Mig is mainly designed and aimed for air combats, with some added multi role capabilities and improvements now, while the F16s is a well balanced multi role fighter. The hardpoint layout, the weapon package, the lower RCS and most likely the avionics will play in favour for the F16.

 

[thestringshredder]

Can it be safe to say that both are equally potent and one cannot be more superior to the other?

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/military-aviation/4447-f-16-falcon-vs-mig-29-fulcrum.html

http://www.foros.net/viewtopic.php?t=21&mforum=FuerzasArmadas

MiG-29 Fulcrum - Page 2

WEAPON LOAD

F-16s BLK50/52: maximum ordinance 6894 kg, A2A weapons include AIM-9L/M/P/X, AIM-7, AIM-120 AAMs, A2G weapons include AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-88 HARM, GBU-15 glide bombs, AGM-84D Harpoon, GBU-10/12/22/24/27 LGBs, Mk 20 Rockeye, CBU-87/89 Gator abd CBU-52/58/71 submuntions dispensers, JDAM, JSOW, JASSM, WCMDs.
MIG-29 SMT: maximum ordinance 5000 kg, A2A weapons include R-27/60/73/77 and K-30/37/77 AAMs. A2G weapons include Kh-25/29/31/35/36/38 ASM/AShM/ARMs and KAB-500L LGBs.

POWER PLANTS

F-16 Blk 50/52: one General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan engine rated 29,588 lb st with afterburning (Block 50) or one P&W F100-PW-229 rated at 29,100 lb st with after burning (Block 52).
MIG-29 Smt:two RD-43 turbofans each rated at 22,058 lb st with afterburning, possibly later with thrust-vectoring nozzles.

Performance

F-16 Blk50/52:range 4215 km with max. external fuel; radius 1485 km with two 2,000 lb bombs and two AIM-9 sidewinders.
Weights: max. take-off 12292 kg.
MIG-26Smt: unrefueled range 3,500 km; combat radius 1550 km in air superiority role and 1100 km in A2G role.
Weights: max. take-off 21,000 kg.

Source - http://forum.********************/index.php?showtopic=29326

 

[Storm Force]

For me the F16 will win overall. Better RCS and radars and weapons both BVR & WVR.

Mig29 MAY win in a dog fight having tremendous agillity but BVR amd over multi role the F16/52 will beat the upgraded MIG29

 

[Kompromat]

'Every single time' a fulcurm met the viper in 'actual combat', the fulcurm has ended up in a scrap shop.

This is 'combat history' not my personal assessment.

 

[janon]

'Every single time' a fulcurm met the viper in 'actual combat', the fulcurm has ended up in a scrap shop.

This is 'combat history' not my personal assessment.

Every time that has happened, the combat was between highly trained NATO pilots with full AEWAC coverage and other recon and jamming assets, and poorly trained conscripts from dysfunctional militaries with no AEWACs or satellites or ELINT assets. On the other hand, when the fulcrums of the IAF met the vipers of PAF in war, the vipers wisely stayed away. On the few occasions that they got close, the vipers wisely turned tail, and the pilots were shaken to their bones.

That too is 'combat history', not my personal assessment. Here it is, from the mouth of your celebrated war hero:

On this occasion, I gather the Indian MiG-27s did cross the LOC briefly and the local NLI commander who was having the crap bombed out of him called in desparately for support- the PAF, which had been frustrated at having to sit it out till now, saw an opportunity to bloody the IAF nose as they were reported to have crossed the LOC. Two Falcons on alert were vectored into the MiGs, but received the jolt of their lives when an IAF MiG-29 locked onto BOTH of them. They tried to break lock- but the MiG persisted, and while I do agree they could have pressed home- there were some controlling factors:
1) strict orders not to cross the LOC
2) Hell, they thought they were about to get a salvo of R-27s up their noses...as an aside, one of the Falcon pilots was a greenhorn and was pretty shaken by this experience- got razzed to death for weeks afterwards.

The fulcrums ensured that the vipers would not dare to intercept our jags and mig-27s, who kept merrily pounding pak's ground forces, blowing up their supply lines and ammunition depots, and reclaiming one hill after the other. So you see, in capable hands, the fulcrums have ensured that the vipers didn't even present themselves for a fight.

Don't evaluate 'combat history' so superficially.

 

[Kompromat]

Sir we didn't have BVRs. Try sending the migs now, i'd be selling their pieces for 200 rupees a kilo at chacha ghulam bux's scrap shop.

 

[janon]

Sir we didn't have BVRs. Try sending the migs now, i'd be selling their pieces for 200 rupees a kilo at chacha ghulam bux's scrap shop.

Well yes, internet bravado is easy. The fact remains that the mig-29 was designed as an air superiority fighter to counter the american F-15, which is superior to the F-16s in all aspects. If they can counter the F-15 beasts, they can be more than a match for the F-16s.

The f-16 is a fine aircraft - it was designed to be the low cost bulk of the USAF, doing decently well in all roles, while a smaller number of expensive F-15s flew air superiority missions or top cover or long range strike. And in that objective, it has excelled.

The mig-29 was designed to be a highly maneuverable air superiority fighter, with ground attack only added recently. Even today, the best fighter jocks in the IAF fly the mig-29, despite the flankers being available. Purely in air to air combat, I would rank the mig-29 ahead of the f-16. However, as a true multirole platform that is cost effective to maintain, the f-16 wins.

 

[Kompromat]

Mig 29 was designed to counter the F-16s

Su 27 was designed to counter the F-15.

I speak of combat record. Lets talk big of the Mig-29 when it shoots down a viper in combat.

 

[Darth Vader]

Every time that has happened, the combat was between highly trained NATO pilots with full AEWAC coverage and other recon and jamming assets, and poorly trained conscripts from dysfunctional militaries with no AEWACs or satellites or ELINT assets. On the other hand, when the fulcrums of the IAF met the vipers of PAF in war, the vipers wisely stayed away. On the few occasions that they got close, the vipers wisely turned tail, and the pilots were shaken to their bones.
That too is 'combat history', not my personal assessment. Here it is, from the mouth of your celebrated war hero:
The fulcrums ensured that the vipers would not dare to intercept our jags and mig-27s, who kept merrily pounding pak's ground forces, blowing up their supply lines and ammunition depots, and reclaiming one hill after the other. So you see, in capable hands, the fulcrums have ensured that the vipers didn't even present themselves for a fight.
Don't evaluate 'combat history' so superficially.

In Combat you count Kill not if and this , that ,every time f 16 and mIG 29 came closer f 16 scraped mig
It wasnt the fear of mighty india which kept Paf At bay, at that time they Coudnt possible maintain a fight my friend they didnt even had enough spears
And in air 2 air battle flying a more advance Jet Gives you a lot help but you cant be sure their are many factors which come in play like your training , your instincts , ROE and list goes on and on the last thing is LUCK
if you are lucky you will live to tell your tale simple is that
And my friend On web measuring D!K is alot easy but in real life its a different story
like we can take the example of india and pakistan India Now have a pretty big arsnel and variety of jets Will the Best AC PAF got is F 16 which are around 60-80 around 150-160 30Mki all most double why didnt india dared to attack Pakistan who was Shouting that they gone attack Pakistan but they didnt had the balls ?

 

[janon]

In Combat you count Kill not if and this , that ,every time f 16 and mIG 29 came closer f 16 scraped mig
It wasnt the fear of mighty india which kept Paf At bay, at that time they Coudnt possible maintain a fight my friend they didnt even had enough spears
And in air 2 air battle flying a more advance Jet Gives you a lot help but you cant be sure their are many factors which come in play like your training , your instincts , ROE and list goes on and on the last thing is LUCK
if you are lucky you will live to tell your tale simple is that
And my friend On web measuring D!K is alot easy but in real life its a different story
like we can take the example of india and pakistan India Now have a pretty big arsnel and variety of jets Will the Best AC PAF got is F 16 which are around 60-80 around 150-160 30Mki all most double why didnt india dared to attack Pakistan who was Shouting that they gone attack Pakistan but they didnt had the balls ?

No, in combat you count a lot of things. If your mission is to blow up intruders, and you do it, it's a succesful mission. The mirages and jags did that. If your mission is to keep hostile aircrafts away and keep the airspace safe, and you do, then it's a succeful mission. The mig-29s did that.

Funny, that's precisely what I told aeronaut in my previous post.

And yes, I am perfectly aware that superior jets is not all that matters. In fact in my post I stressed the fact that the F-16 pilots were highly trained NATO pilots, and the mig-29s were flown by poorly trained pilots from dysfunctional militaries. Which means that I am well aware of the existence of other factors than superior hardware. I also mentioned other factors like force multiplying ELINT assets, and urged everybody not to look at at combat superficially. So you are preaching to the choir, when giving me these 'machines are not all' lectures.

For one thing, "India" was not shouting that they will attacks pakistan. Maybe some Indians were, but not all, and nobody in the govt was. Having a fleet of MKIs might guarantee air superiority for us - but is that all we needed? Pakistan has a military too, and war would be costly - it simply was not worth the price. A much better alternative was to weaken pakistan from within, and counter dirty war with dirty war. Did India do that? Heh, who am I to say![/quote]

Mig 29 was designed to counter the F-16s

Su 27 was designed to counter the F-15.

I speak of combat record. Lets talk big of the Mig-29 when it shoots down a viper in combat.

We'll see when such a combat occurs between two otherwise evenly matched foes, in terms of pilot skill and supporting assets. Until then, NATO armadas shooting down Iraqi pilots trying to find the reverse gear are the only kind of data points we have.

 

[he-man]

its not the old mig anymore but modernized ones

pakistani members are jumping up and down but do they even know??

1)jammers in f-16?
2)range of apg-68v9?
3)irst stats of f-16(even though its in the pod)
4)rwr's used??
5)maws used??

if they have no idea(otherwise give me concrete links not some thread post or an interview)

then they need to keep quiet till the end of time.

another thing,pakistani f-16's are undergoing mlu and after this they don't have much life left anyways.
we are getting new migs for aircraft carrier operations,plus rafale plus pakfa and of course mki.
hell even mirage 2000 is undergoing kick *** modernization
also when zhuk-ae is developed in a couple of years we will have an option to install an aesa too,for mig-29

so for india too many options are available at the moment which sadly is not the case for paf



paf is a competent air force and i don't want to pass any judgement but keeping in all those points mentioned above they must not boast about anything really.

 

[janon]

'Every single time' a fulcurm met the viper in 'actual combat', the fulcurm has ended up in a scrap shop.

This is 'combat history' not my personal assessment.

BTW, "every single time" is a big exaggeration. From what I gather, the total number of mig-29s shot down by f-16s is THREE. One serbian, one yugoslav, and one iraqi. This when the F-16s were flying not only with powerful AEWAC cover, but also F-15s were giving top cover.

I don't see how this combat record of 3 leads you to pull such conclusions.

For example, this is how the yugoslav mig-29 was shot:

On 4 May 1999, a lone Yugoslav Mig-29 flown by Col. Milenko Pavlović attempted to intercept a large NATO formation that was returning to base having just bombed Valjevo (the pilot's home town) It was engaged by a pair of USAF F-16CJs from the 78th Fighter Squadron[26] and shot down with AIM-120,[27] killing the pilot with the falling wreckage also being hit by a Strela 2M fired by the Yugoslav army in error.