How does Israel justify Aliyah to the rest of the world?

[A for Anarchy]

I reiterate - the so called "Promised land" means that Jews who have no connection with the land, are brainwashed into believing that Israel is their God given gift and was made for them. That is not good. Many ideas in the Bibles are universal, however, many are not. As I have already pointed out the book of Deuteronomy is very violent in its outlook and started the entire "Promised land" idea. It also entitles the Jews to think they are better in their land, and the Arabs dont belong there. You seem to believe that you are being benevolent by entertaining them in your Promised Land.

Again, and again you are impervious to my point of why Aliyah is a wrong state policy (The MAJORITY can be wrong! in a democracy - please do look at Germany). Jews may find a safe haven in Israel but the active promotion of Aliyah and systematic change in demography is terribly wrong - it is equivalent to cultural genocide for whatever minorities in Israel. You clearly do not think a drop of 10% is big, I on the other hand would shocked if this did happen with in whatever time frame.

As I have said earlier I am not questioning whether Aliya in the past was right or wrong. I am talking about the present.
Why are constantly projecting Israel as a "Jews only" party where you give goodies if they come over? I am asking you why can you not have a party where Jews are the major contributors with everyone else in your colony chipping in too? Clearly, the state thinks the more Jews, the more fun we will have, in our Jew party!

No, Jewish immigration does not lead to short term kick backs - it is a long term demographic change in the land which bothers me.

You constantly try to divert the topic by focusing on parity comparison with say other Arab nations and claiming that your Arabs. Now, I am not stooping to comparison.

For what purpose is it matter if the Arabs are 10% or 20% of the population? Regarding their power in parliament it derives mainly from their political agenda and less from their number of sits. There are smaller parties than the Arab parties that has more power because they are needed for a government coalition and there are bigger parties which has similar influence as the Arab parties because they are in opposition.

As for the Israeli Palestinian option to change this policy, well Aliya is defined in the immigration laws and like any law it can be modified in Parliament. The Palestinians have their representatives in the Knesset, so like in any democracy if they recruit the appropriate majority they could change the law.

Which part of the above - should I believe? Do you think Israel would ever change the law because a small minority says so?

Is their population ratio decreasing? Yes. Does this have direct impact in a democracy where seats are usually proportional to demography? Yes.

 

[jdme]

Bar Refaeli is one HOT Jew!

 

[Jon Snow]

Israel doesnt need to justify anything - they have the mossad for anybody who asks too many questions

 

[nirreich]

I reiterate - the so called "Promised land" means that Jews who have no connection with the land, are brainwashed into believing that Israel is their God given gift and was made for them. That is not good. Many ideas in the Bibles are universal, however, many are not. As I have already pointed out the book of Deuteronomy is very violent in its outlook and started the entire "Promised land" idea. It also entitles the Jews to think they are better in their land, and the Arabs dont belong there. You seem to believe that you are being benevolent by entertaining them in your Promised Land.

Again, and again you are impervious to my point of why Aliyah is a wrong state policy (The MAJORITY can be wrong! in a democracy - please do look at Germany). Jews may find a safe haven in Israel but the active promotion of Aliyah and systematic change in demography is terribly wrong - it is equivalent to cultural genocide for whatever minorities in Israel. You clearly do not think a drop of 10% is big, I on the other hand would shocked if this did happen with in whatever time frame.

As I have said earlier I am not questioning whether Aliya in the past was right or wrong. I am talking about the present.
Why are constantly projecting Israel as a "Jews only" party where you give goodies if they come over? I am asking you why can you not have a party where Jews are the major contributors with everyone else in your colony chipping in too? Clearly, the state thinks the more Jews, the more fun we will have, in our Jew party!

No, Jewish immigration does not lead to short term kick backs - it is a long term demographic change in the land which bothers me.

You constantly try to divert the topic by focusing on parity comparison with say other Arab nations and claiming that your Arabs. Now, I am not stooping to comparison.




Which part of the above - should I believe? Do you think Israel would ever change the law because a small minority says so?

Is their population ratio decreasing? Yes. Does this have direct impact in a democracy where seats are usually proportional to demography? Yes.

I clearly emphasise the idea that Arabs are equal Israeli citizens and you say I am saying they do not belong. The promise land idea in its national interpretation (and not as religious idea) is just the creation of a Jewish nation state in the historic homeland of the Jewish people. Why you are so intimidate by the idea?

Jews are brainwashed? How exactly? Israel offers them to immigrate and the they can choose whatever they like, what is so wrong with that?

the entire history of the creation of Israel is a demographic change, that what it was all about - the returning of the Jewish people to their homeland. Why you are so concerned about demographic change? How it hurts the Palestinians who will enjoy their civil and political rights anyway? What is a cultural genocide? How they culture and economy will be affected by Jewish immigration?

Israel would not change the law just to please a small minority. Why should the majority give its legitimate right to define its country and surrender one of the most important pillars of this character to the minority? Israel is a democracy and if the Palestinian would be able to persuade a majority of the public in their agenda then the law would be change. The Israeli public is divers and there is free press and open discussion. But I fail to see why we should do what the minority wants and not what the majority aspires (as long it does not hurt the basic rights of the minority).

Furthermore if demography is your concern than after the 1948 War non Jews were only 11% of the population and nowadays they are double - 20%. Is this not a change in the the demographic balance that should be corrected?

 

[A for Anarchy]

Bar Refaeli is one HOT Jew!

So is Mila Kunis. But do not troll and derail this topic

Israel doesnt need to justify anything - they have the mossad for anybody who asks too many questions

Yeah, I know - it kinda sucks then if you are not in their good books , right?

 

[A for Anarchy]

I clearly emphasise the idea that Arabs are equal Israeli citizens and you say I am saying they do not belong. The promise land idea in its national interpretation (and not as religious idea) is just the creation of a Jewish nation state in the historic homeland of the Jewish people. Why you are so intimidate by the idea?

Jews are brainwashed? How exactly? Israel offers them to immigrate and the they can choose whatever they like, what is so wrong with that?

the entire history of the creation of Israel is a demographic change, that what it was all about - the returning of the Jewish people to their homeland. Why you are so concerned about demographic change? How it hurts the Palestinians who will enjoy their civil and political rights anyway? What is a cultural genocide? How they culture and economy will be affected by Jewish immigration?

Israel would not change the law just to please a small minority. Why should the majority give its legitimate right to define its country and surrender one of the most important pillars of this character to the minority? Israel is a democracy and if the Palestinian would be able to persuade a majority of the public in their agenda then the law would be change. The Israeli public is divers and there is free press and open discussion. But I fail to see why we should do what the minority wants and not what the majority aspires (as long it does not hurt the basic rights of the minority).

Clearly , as you had earlier mentioned , Arabs' who relatives elsewhere can not immigrate to Israel - that is very clear. Very equal , indeed.

In fact, when I said that they probably had greater claim of living in Israel than say random Jews across the world, you did not disagree. You just said derp, that what's the majority wants, so it is right (kinda sucks, doesn't it?)

I am not asking you to change the law, but to drop the policy all together. Because it is discriminatory, and the humanitarian grounds on which usually immigration happens is done with. If people come themselves it is ok, coercing particular communities to change the demographic using state sponsored tools , is uncool and very discriminatory.

I find it hard to believe that you do not understand the entire state sponsored policy of Aliyah is very discriminatory can do no good to the current minorities who would be sidetracked.

 

[nirreich]

So is Mila Kunis. But do not troll and derail this topic



Yeah, I know - it kinda sucks then if you are not in their good books , right?

You asks a lot of questions and no one is stopping you.

 

[A for Anarchy]

Israel doesnt need to justify anything - they have the mossad for anybody who asks too many questions

Yeah, I know - it kinda sucks then if you are not in their good books , right?

You asks a lot of questions and no one is stopping you.

Where was the talk of mossad stopping me?


Unsuccessful trolls were unsuccessful.

 

[nirreich]

Clearly , as you had earlier mentioned , Arabs' who relatives elsewhere can not immigrate to Israel - that is very clear. Very equal , indeed.

In fact, when I said that they probably had greater claim of living in Israel than say random Jews across the world, you did not disagree. You just said derp, that what's the majority wants, so it is right (kinda sucks, doesn't it?)

I am not asking you to change the law, but to drop the policy all together. Because it is discriminatory, and the humanitarian grounds on which usually immigration happens is done with. If people come themselves it is ok, coercing particular communities to change the demographic using state sponsored tools , is uncool and very discriminatory.

I find it hard to believe that you do not understand the entire state sponsored policy of Aliyah is very discriminatory can do no good to the current minorities who would be sidetracked.

You failed to explain how these minorities are side tracked and how Jewish immigration jeopardise their rights or discriminates them. They are living in a Jewish nation state which this is its policy and they should reconcile with it like other minorities reconcile with the majority preferences about the character of the state (like Jews did throughout history). I fail to understand why the opinion of the minority is more important that the one of the majority in a democratic regime.

As I already explained, there is no moral demand for any country to allow relatives to become its citizens and each country can decide which people it wants to accept. The Jewish nation state made the most natural decision and that is to allow its diaspora to have citizenship if they choose to do it. No one forcing them or whatever. It is like the Irish republic discriminates non-Irish from getting a citizenship while allowing the Irish diaspora to return to their homeland. Are you going to tell Ireland which people it should accept?

As I mentioned after the 1948 war the non-Jews were only 11% of the population and nowadays they are 20% - do you think that we should go back to that situation?

 

[A for Anarchy]

You failed to explain how these minorities are side tracked and how Jewish immigration jeopardise their rights or discriminates them. They are living in a Jewish nation state which this is its policy and they should reconcile with it like other minorities reconcile with the majority preferences about the character of the state (like Jews did throughout history). I fail to understand why the opinion of the minority is more important that the one of the majority in a democratic regime.

As I already explained, there is no moral demand for any country to allow relatives to become its citizens and each country can decide which people it wants to accept. The Jewish nation state made the most natural decision and that is to allow its diaspora to have citizenship if they choose to do it. No one forcing them or whatever. It is like the Irish republic discriminates non-Irish from getting a citizenship while allowing the Irish diaspora to return to their homeland. Are you going to tell Ireland which people it should accept?

As I mentioned after the 1948 war the non-Jews were only 11% of the population and nowadays they are 20% - do you think that we should go back to that situation?

When the minorities get lesser seats, because they are fewer in ratio, makes them weaker in a democracy ? ( obviously votes are proportionally to demography , I hope you get that )

Infact here is a small snippet from an article of much earlier (2006)

That is just one of many trends that worry the Palestinian citizens of Israel, who make up nearly a fifth of the population. Always equal citizens on paper more than in practice, since the intifada they have become more and more marginalised. A police shooting of 13 people in the Christian-Arab city of Nazareth, just after the intifada began, left deep scars. The failure to bring anyone to book, and a series of similar incidents since, has left simmering anger. On top of this, there is the West Bank barrier that separates many people from relatives and friends; chronic inequality in government funding for Jewish and Arab towns; widespread discrimination in hiring for jobs in the government and utility companies; and government plans to develop the northern Galilee and southern Negev regions, which have large Palestinian and Bedouin populations, by enticing more Jews to move there.

Ref:Israel's new politics: Shutting itself in, hoping for the best | The Economist


Please now tell me, how is this Aliyah thing good for the minorities , or are you just asking them to play by your rules and not oppose state run discriminatory programmes?

Now , when majority consider -intermarriage as equivalent to treason, where minority voices are overtly encouraged and covertly undermined and there is extreme clarity in the state that we need only Jews, the rest who all can play along - can come along - it is something to me that seems like facism.

 

[nirreich]

When the minorities get lesser seats, because they are fewer in ratio, makes them weaker in a democracy ? ( obviously votes are proportionally to demography , I hope you get that )

Infact here is a small snippet from an article of much earlier (2006)


Ref:Israel's new politics: Shutting itself in, hoping for the best | The Economist


Please now tell me, how is this Aliyah thing good for the minorities , or are you just asking them to play by your rules and not oppose state run discriminatory programmes?

Now , when majority consider -intermarriage as equivalent to treason, where minority voices are overtly encouraged and covertly undermined and there is extreme clarity in the state that we need only Jews, the rest who all can play along - can come along - it is something to me that seems like facism.

The minorities were only 11% in the 1950's and now they are 20%, but you do not argue that we should go back to that ratio. So according to your logic nowadays they have more power than ever. However, democracy is not just demography and number of sits, as I tried to explain to you. The Arab parties can double their number of sits in parliament but still be without real influence and they can have half the parliamentary presentation they currently hold and still to have more influence. Tell me, what is the exact ratio that we need to preserve between Jews and non-Jews? 80-20? 90-10? 50-50? How do you determine this kind of thing, it is impossible and it is ridiculous.

Regarding the rights of non-Jews in Israel it is a subject to a different discussion that has nothing to do with Jewish immigration. You did not explain how it discriminate Arabs while other countries adopt similar approach. Will the UK or France or Germany or the US will allow relatives to immigrate just because they have someone who is family in their territory? For some reason whenever there is an intermarriage between Israeli Palestinian and a Palestinian in PA they decide to live in Israel and never in the PA. It is another trick of the Palestinians to fulfil the "right of return" and the state should prevent this kind of mechanism. They can live together as family in the PA, if this is their true intention.

Israel is a Jewish nation state and the Israeli Arab should reconcile with this fact of life., like other minorities respect the wishes of the majority in other countries and do not try to undermine the character of the country. If the Palestinians in Israel wants to have their own national self determination besides political and civil rights they can have it in their own nation state in the West Bank and Gaza, like Jews in diaspora cannot ask for national self determination in their current countries and for that they need to move to Israel.

Is it not an equal standard both for Jews and non-Jews?

 

[A for Anarchy]

The minorities were only 11% in the 1950's and now they are 20%, but you do not argue that we should go back to that ratio. So according to your logic nowadays they have more power than ever. However, democracy is not just demography and number of sits, as I tried to explain to you. The Arab parties can double their number of sits in parliament but still be without real influence and they can have half the parliamentary presentation they currently hold and still to have more influence. Tell me, what is the exact ratio that we need to preserve between Jews and non-Jews? 80-20? 90-10? 50-50? How do you determine this kind of thing, it is impossible and it is ridiculous.

Regarding the rights of non-Jews in Israel it is a subject to a different discussion that has nothing to do with Jewish immigration. You did not explain how it discriminate Arabs while other countries adopt similar approach. Will the UK or France or Germany or the US will allow relatives to immigrate just because they have someone who is family in their territory? For some reason whenever there is an intermarriage between Israeli Palestinian and a Palestinian in PA they decide to live in Israel and never in the PA. It is another trick of the Palestinians to fulfil the "right of return" and the state should prevent this kind of mechanism. They can live together as family in the PA, if this is their true intention.

Israel is a Jewish nation state and the Israeli Arab should reconcile with this fact of life., like other minorities respect the wishes of the majority in other countries and do not try to undermine the character of the country. If the Palestinians in Israel wants to have their own national self determination besides political and civil rights they can have it in their own nation state in the West Bank and Gaza, like Jews in diaspora cannot ask for national self determination in their current countries and for that they need to move to Israel.

Is it not an equal standard both for Jews and non-Jews?

Systematic demographic change came about because of Aliyah Bet from 1934-1948 - which happened during the World Wars and the Holocaust. And after massive displacement of Arab Folks in the first war - meant that the 11% (or approx 150,0000 Arabs) only got citizenship. Later on, some people who were already living in these areas were regularised - and given citizenship rather than thrown out for adhering to Israeli law ( which i must say is a better attitude from Israel ) . The 11% is misleading, as there were more than 400,000 displaced in Israel who were Arabs.

Unlike previous Aliyahs, where it was individual motivation - today it is state sponsored policies bring people into Israel and systematic integration of these people into the current demography.

Please look at more stats:

Aliya picked up again in 90s - with almost 30% of Israel having First Generation immigrants (most probably from old Soviet Union republics) - so this is not a demographic change, I suppose?


**PS:No country actively promotes anything like Aliyah. I am not talking about rules or regulation to immigration. I am talking about advertising immigration of all Jews to their promised homeland - saying that this is where they truly belong! I am not asking you to maintain ratios. If Jews want to immigrate on their own, let them do it - why have state sponsored mechanisms which are advertised to make their decision seem like something you do for post retirement.

 

[nirreich]

Systematic demographic change came about because of Aliyah Bet from 1934-1948 - which happened during the World Wars and the Holocaust. And after massive displacement of Arab Folks in the first war - meant that the 11% (or approx 150,0000 Arabs) only got citizenship. Later on, some people who were already living in these areas were regularised - and given citizenship rather than thrown out for adhering to Israeli law ( which i must say is a better attitude from Israel ) . The 11% is misleading, as there were more than 400,000 displaced in Israel who were Arabs.

Unlike previous Aliyahs, where it was individual motivation - today it is state sponsored policies bring people into Israel and systematic integration of these people into the current demography.

Please look at more stats:

Aliya picked up again in 90s - with almost 30% of Israel having First Generation immigrants (most probably from old Soviet Union republics) - so this is not a demographic change, I suppose?


**PS:No country actively promotes anything like Aliyah. I am not talking about rules or regulation to immigration. I am talking about advertising immigration of all Jews to their promised homeland - saying that this is where they truly belong! I am not asking you to maintain ratios. If Jews want to immigrate on their own, let them do it - why have state sponsored mechanisms which are advertised to make their decision seem like something you do for post retirement.

I still do not understand why the country is not allowed to encourage Jewish immigration when this is the main reason for its existence. As long as Jews are coming on their own free will, I do not see what is the problem. This is our national narrative, why it is so wrong when it does not affects on the rights of the non-Jews.

Since the birth of Israel Jewish immigration has been encouraged by the state and not just in the last few years. Even before the establishment of the state, the Jewish Agency promoted this idea and tried to convince Jewish community to immigrate (and maybe they could be saved from the Holocaust). Again, I fail to see what is the problem with this policy that wants as many Jews as possible in Israel while preserving the rights of the minorities.

 

[A for Anarchy]

I still do not understand why the country is not allowed to encourage Jewish immigration when this is the main reason for its existence. .

I see, the main reason is to get more Jews into your nation, rather than take care of your citizens. Very cute, indeed. And if it is true, it is very misguided.

What you are giving the Arabs is what in economics called basic "hygiene factors" and you are trying to be cute about it :/

Again, I fail to see what is the problem with this policy that wants as many Jews as possible in Israel while preserving the rights of the minorities.

Do minorities have a place in a democracy? Yes. Should they air their concerns about their concerns of ongoing Aliyah be held in a public forum? <hmm?> May be

Should you address it? No - because we are Zionist republic!

That pretty much sums your attitude currently.

 

[jdme]

Just one question: I am not sure what Aliyah is (don't care really) but why would "world" care about it? Is world euphemism for Muslim countries here?