How does Israel justify Aliyah to the rest of the world?

[nirreich]

Druze Arabs make only 1.7% ( Ref: Statistical Abstract of Israel 2009 - No. 60 Subject 2 - Table No. 2 ) while Muslim Arabs make up 16.8% of the population. Muslim Arabs do not support Aliyah in Israel - please explain to me logically why it is good for their tax payer money to host some illegals in their country which the state is legalizing.

The pure apathy you display is really terrible. I was talking about people who have been born there, living for centuries there. Clearly if possible, you would have anyone with slightly divergent views on how the course of the motherland should be, out of the country.

Aliyah is a terrible concept - it is committing cultural and economic genocide, nothing less. I have shown you the statistics - most Jews dont return because they are being ill treated, they return because Israel seems to want them.

If I may intervene and try to explain the situation of Jewish immigration to Israel ("Alliya"). I hope we can continue this discussion without lowering ourselves to personal attacks. So let us start from the Beginning.

Israel, like any other sovereign country, has the full legitimacy to decide who is authorised to immigrate to its territory and be its citizen. Some countries (like the US) give your citizenship if you economically qualify and you lived in the country for a defined period, others (like Germany) grant you with a citizenship if you have a certain bloodline to a its citizen.

Israel's immigration policy is similar to the latter example. It was established as a the nation state of the Jewish people in a clear purpose to be a safe-heaven for Jews around the world after a long history of prosecutions and as the only country where Jews could enjoy self-determination as a nation. When Israel was established based on international recognition by the UN in 1947 and earlier by the Commonwealth of Nations in 1920 this was its main objective.

As a result, Israel naturally emphasised its strong connection to its diaspora and granted any Jew in the world the right to be its citizen because this is its raison d'etre - otherwise why Israel should exist? The definition of who is Jewish is very general: someone who was born to a Jewish mother or was converted to Judaism.

Although Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people it is far from being only for Jews. It has 20% population of non-Jews and they enjoy full rights like the Jewish citizens. However, Israel's immigration laws do not let anyone to have a citizenship, like majority of countries have immigration laws that forbid granting citizenship for all sorts of reasons.

Regarding relatives of non-Jewish citizens, we cannot ignore the historical context. Most of the non-Jewish citizens are the Palestinians which there national objective is still to destroy the Jewish nation state which they perceive as "justice", and most of their relatives live in Israel's enemy states (like Lebanon) or are known for their hostility towards Israel (in Gaza, the West Bank and Jordan). Furthermore, the main tool for of the Palestinians (except of terrorism) to have their "justice" and destroy Israel is by demanding the "right of return" for all Palestinians.

I would not go into the historical circumstances which led to this situation but the bottom line is that the Palestinians want to use demography in order to become a majority (or a very big minority) in Israel and then abolish it as a Jewish state. The Palestinians were not just against Jewish immigration to Israel from distressed countries (like the Soviet Union where the Jews were prosecuted) but even wanted to ban the immigration of Holocaust survivors. So, changing the immigration laws and allowing Palestinians to enter the country is suicidal for Israel.

As for the Israeli Palestinian option to change this policy, well Alliya is defined in the immigration laws and like any law it can be modified in Parliament. The Palestinians have their representatives in the Knesset, so like in any democracy if they recruit the appropriate majority they could change the law.

Other option for the Israeli Palestinians to get together with their relatives is to immigrate themselves to their countries or to support a peace agreement which will grant all Palestinians the right to live in their independent country in Gaza and West Bank, but not inside Israel.

As I said, adopting immigration laws that would allow anyone to become a citizen of Israel will very soon abolish it as a Jewish state and would be exploited by the Palestinians. And like any other country Israel has the right to determine its immigration laws.

 

[A for Anarchy]

Out of the possible 120 members in the Knesset - only 14 are listed as Arabs (2 are Druze). So can 14 members hope to change the law? I think not. Aliyah is a state policy today - long gone are the days when it harbored notions of immigration of Holocaust survivors. Today it is clear - why people immigrate to the country ( I have discussed at length earlier)

You say Palestinians are demanding the "right of return". Now if certain people can have it, humanly , I find that there association with their motherland is greater than a random Jew's who is currently residing in South America and coming from there , only because he finds the state inviting him - I have provided on how the state is actively promoting the agenda.

You fear that it would stop being a Jewish state? Israel's raison de etre is to randomly increase its already prevalent Jewish identity?
I am not asking you to start importing Palestinians right away, or stop providing refuge to victims of anti semitism. I am asking you to stop projecting Aliyah as a true Jewish dream which all good Jews must do. Clearly the state has provided the Aliyah comers with enough facilities to live their lives well.

 

[nirreich]

Out of the possible 120 members in the Knesset - only 14 are listed as Arabs (2 are Druze). So can 14 members hope to change the law? I think not. Aliyah is a state policy today - long gone are the days when it harbored notions of immigration of Holocaust survivors. Today it is clear - why people immigrate to the country ( I have discussed at length earlier)

You say Palestinians are demanding the "right of return". Now if certain people can have it, humanly , I find that there association with their motherland is greater than a random Jew's who is currently residing in South America and coming from there , only because he finds the state inviting him - I have provided on how the state is actively promoting the agenda.

You fear that it would stop being a Jewish state? Israel's raison de etre is to randomly increase its already prevalent Jewish identity?
I am not asking you to start importing Palestinians right away, or stop providing refuge to victims of anti semitism. I am asking you to stop projecting Aliyah as a true Jewish dream which all good Jews must do. Clearly the state has provided the Aliyah comers with enough facilities to live their lives well.

Why you are against Jewish immigration to Israel? Why Aliya is not a true Jewish dream, as you phrased it? every country has its own immigration laws and so does Israel. Israel does not force Jews to immigrate, they can do whatever they like. why it bothers you if Israel wants all the Jews to live in its society (and I am not saying this is indeed the policy)? Why it is anyone business what are Israel's immigration laws? Can't the state of Israel exercise its sovereignty on the question of citizenship and immigration, like any other country?

I do not want to go into details about the Palestinians, but if your main concern is their "right" to immigrate to Israel, then I already explained why they are forbidden to do that. Like any other refugees of war (for example the refugees of the Indo-Pakistani war of 1947-1948) they should be settled in their host countries and not live without any citizens rights. Israel absorbed a similar amount of Jews from Muslim countries and gave them citizenship.

The Palestinian connection to their motherland can be fulfilled in their own state which should be established in the West Bank and Gaza and not by allowing them to immigrate to Israel.

 

[A for Anarchy]

The State of Israel can do what it wants, however there will be people questioning their position and their decisions if they see something wrong that is going on.

As I said Israel has 20% minorities, and you are as well saying - well yeah, F*ck them - they should go to West bank and Gaza. Please exercise your sovereignty and start throwing them out of your nation immediately - if that's what you want to do. After all by you very logic, might is right and to the victor, the spoils.

And please, Aliyah is nothing like the offering refugees following war some life to live. It is an active promotion of the promised homeland for the Jews. This is fascinating, as a clearly a bunch of smart people have decided to put their hopes on the interpretations heavily redacted modern deutoronomic code.

 

[nirreich]

What is deutoronomic?

So your main problem is with the "right of return". Well I explained why Israel will never accept this "right" which is equivalent to national suicide.

A lot of people have relatives in other countries and still they cannot bring them into their own country. I for example have relatives in France, Canada, and USA, but This alone does not grant me the possibility the become their citizen.

The Palestinian can visit their relatives in their own countries and their relatives can visit them in Israel (if they are not from an enemy state). If the Israeli Palestinian desperately want to live with their relatives and this is the most important thing for them, they can leave Israel. The state nor I personally encourage them to do that and they can remain Israeli citizens, it is their choice. Israel is their country too and they are more than welcome to stay. however, Israel or any other nation is not obliged to accept relatives of its citizens - it is the state own discretion to decide about it. And Israel, from obvious reasons decided not to allow Palestinians to immigrate.

Jewish immigration is one of the most important pillars for the existence of Israel and I still do not understand why you are troubled by Israel's immigration laws. If a certain country wants to allow only people with glasses to immigrate, what do you care? It is their choice.

 

[A for Anarchy]

What is deutoronomic?

Book of Deuteronomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jewish immigration is one of the most important pillars for the existence of Israel and I still do not understand why you are troubled by Israel's immigration laws. If a certain country wants to allow only to people with glasses to immigrate, what do you care? It is their choice.

I have already told you earlier - the reason it bothers me , is the selective advancement of an agenda to make the country a 100% Jew population. It is no different from Hitler tried to do through his racially motivations and initiations of the Holocaust.

No country should have preferential laws based on religion or race.

Regarding immigration , I have already expressed the main reasons as to why people immigrate and it has been proved that the state wants then to immigrate only to strengthen their Jewish identity. Yeah, who gives 2 hoots about the minorities - its their money also going in to funding of the state's agenda of Aliya. - so well, kick them out!

 

[nirreich]

Book of Deuteronomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I have already told you earlier - the reason it bothers me , is the selective advancement of an agenda to make the country a 100% Jew population. It is no different from Hitler tried to do through his racially motivations and initiations of the Holocaust.

No country should have preferential laws based on religion or race.

Regarding immigration , I have already expressed the main reasons as to why people immigrate and it has been proved that the state wants then to immigrate only to strengthen their Jewish identity. Yeah, who gives 2 hoots about the minorities - its their money also going in to funding of the state's agenda of Aliya. - so well, kick them out!

As I told you, there are several countries which gives citizenship based on bloodline, and usually these countries has a large diaspora that they want to remain its connection to the country. Why this is illegitimate for a nation state to want to preserve its connection to its nationals around the world?

Israel has no policy and never had any policy to make the country consist of only Jewish population. 20% are non-Jewish and no one encourage them to immigrate or give up their Israeli citizenship.

In every democratic country the majority can decide on the character of the country while preserving the rights of the minorities. As a result, for example, Jews and Muslims who are living in the UK cannot ask the state to stop its Christian character and its maintaining a state church, and still all UK citizens needs to pay taxes that also preserve the country's Christian character.

The same goes for Israel: it was found precisely to allow any Jew to enjoy full self determination in the only Jewish country in the world. When the Palestinian decided to stay as citizens after the 1948 war they had to accepted this character and the right of the Jewish majority to determine the character of the state while preserving the political and civilian rights of non-Jews. The same framework of citizenship is valid in any other democracy.

Let us imagine an uncontrolled desire of 100 million Chinese to immigrate to KSA and become the majority. Does KSA is obliged to let them immigrate and change from a Muslim state to a Chinese state? Would not that be a discrimination against Chinese? Why KSA has the right to preserve the self determination of its people and similar Israeli policy is illegitimate?

 

[A for Anarchy]

You still do not address the core issue. I am not asking why the Aliyah was made, I am asking - why is it still there? The trends of immigration are not towards anti semitism, but rather towards economic opportunities.
Why should Arab Muslim in Israel be happy with further strengthening of the Jewish identity of the state?
The people who stayed back as citizens and accepted it as a Jewish state - I suppose they would definitely enjoy paying their taxes to fund some random South American Jew's Aliya, just because he finds it more attractive to come and live Israel ; and not because of anti semitism.

The Israel policy is illegitimate because it is not a one time affair. It is a continuous state run agenda and as you mentioned is being promoted as one of the pillars of the state. The basis of this is not history or not even ethnic connection , but rather the faith in the Torah about Jews being blessed with their Promised land. Clearly, such blind belief in religious texts is a problem with the world today.

I have no issues with full self determination of your people, why reject it for some other citizens who are actively part of your country. How is Aliyah good for the minorities?

I am not asking your state to be not Jewish. I am asking them to stop trying to continuously accelerate their Jewish character forced-ly through goodies such as Aliyah and projection that every good Jew should do it. This is narrow mindedness and very close to Facism.

In every democratic country the majority can decide on the character of the country while preserving the rights of the minorities.

You almost sound benevolent there. The minorities need to have equal rights for self determination as well as voicing their opinion on a rather redundant state policy.

 

[silko]

okay, first of all.

can someone explain to me what aliyah is?!?!?!

and why is it bad for who? and why is it? aaaahhhh? i dont understand it.


can someone explain in a easy way to me?

 

[nirreich]

You still do not address the core issue. I am not asking why the Aliyah was made, I am asking - why is it still there? The trends of immigration are not towards anti semitism, but rather towards economic opportunities.
Why should Arab Muslim in Israel be happy with further strengthening of the Jewish identity of the state?
The people who stayed back as citizens and accepted it as a Jewish state - I suppose they would definitely enjoy paying their taxes to fund some random South American Jew's Aliya, just because he finds it more attractive to come and live Israel ; and not because of anti semitism.


The Israel policy is illegitimate because it is not a one time affair. It is a continuous state run agenda and as you mentioned is being promoted as one of the pillars of the state. The basis of this is not history or not even ethnic connection , but rather the faith in the Torah about Jews being blessed with their Promised land. Clearly, such blind belief in religious texts is a problem with the world today.

I have no issues with full self determination of your people, why reject it for some other citizens who are actively part of your country. How is Aliyah good for the minorities?

I am not asking your state to be not Jewish. I am asking them to stop trying to continuously accelerate their Jewish character forced-ly through goodies such as Aliyah and projection that every good Jew should do it. This is narrow mindedness and very close to Facism.



You almost sound benevolent there. The minorities need to have equal rights for self determination as well as voicing their opinion on a rather redundant state policy.

Aliya is still there because that is the main reason Israel was established - to give any Jew the opportunity to live in its nation state. Furthermore, nowadays Jews are rarely prosecuted, and particulalry in their current host countries, most of them are Western countries. However, history is very fickle and Jews knew times of prosperity (like nowadays) and times of prosecution. Who can guarantee that it is all over for good? In time of distress the Jews still need a safe-heaven for protection.

It does not matter if Jews are immigrating or if they immigrate because of economic reasons. In light of the bitter history of our people they should be allowed to live in Israel for whatever reason.

The non-Jews in Israel should respect the choices of the majority even if they do not agree to them, like Jews as a minority accepts a lot of decision in their host countries even if they object to them. This is what democracy is all about - the majority has the right to determine the policy while not suppressing the minorities - and clearly Jewish immigration cannot be considered as suppressing the non-Jews who enjoy political and civilian rights. No one is deporting Palestinians to make room for new Jewish immigrants.

The immigration laws are first and foremost a national policy and not a religious one. The Jewish community of Israel which consist of 80% of its people deeply believe that the state should be open for Jewish immigration because our fate is closely connected to our diaspora. Why is it so difficult to understand and it is illegitimate? Do not we have the right to determine our own society and who we are willing to accept to live with us, like any other country?

 

[nirreich]

okay, first of all.

can someone explain to me what aliyah is?!?!?!

and why is it bad for who? and why is it? aaaahhhh? i dont understand it.


can someone explain in a easy way to me?

It is very simple: Aliya is a Hebrew word for Jewish immigration to Israel.

The other gentleman argues that Aliya is illegitimate while I am trying like you to understand his claims.

 

[A for Anarchy]

Aliyah is the freedom of the Jews to immigrate to Israel (literally means - "ascent") . It has always been a Jewish aspiration to return their so called "Promised Land" for years. It turned out to be one of the reasons why the Jewish state was created after the Brits left the region.

Today, Israel gives freedom to any Jew (now a person with Jewish ancestry) living outside the country to come from anywhere and settle down in their country.

It is bad because it is today done not as a policy to provide refuge for the Jews who have been ill treated, but rather as a state policy instrument in accentuation of the Jewish nature of the already well established Jewish state. This leads to increase in sidetracking of the Arab citizens who are already a minority. It is bad because it cultural as well economic genocide for the minorities (who were earlier almost 50-50 before mass aliyahs happened)

If you go through the links provided, the state of Israel is providing a lot of goodies to Jews to settle down in Israel. Clearly , this would not go well with tax paying Arab citizens.

 

[nirreich]

Aliyah is the freedom of the Jews to immigrate to Israel (literally means - "ascent") . It has always been a Jewish aspiration to return their so called "Promised Land" for years. It turned out to be one of the reasons why the Jewish state was created after the Brits left the region.

Today, Israel gives freedom to any Jew (now a person with Jewish ancestry) living outside the country to come from anywhere and settle down in their country.

It is bad because it is today done not as a policy to provide refuge for the Jews who have been ill treated, but rather as a state policy instrument in accentuation of the Jewish nature of the already well established Jewish state. This leads to increase in sidetracking of the Arab citizens who are already a minority. It is bad because it cultural as well economic genocide for the minorities (who were earlier almost 50-50 before mass aliyahs happened)

If you go through the links provided, the state of Israel is providing a lot of goodies to Jews to settle down in Israel. Clearly , this would not go well with tax paying Arab citizens.

Why Jewish immigration sidetrack the Arabs? Even if all the Jews will immigrate to Israel there would still be 10% of non-Jews in Israel which is quite a significant minority. Without a mass immigration (which is not expected in the coming period) the Arabs would maintain their current share of the general population.

What Aliya got to do with the economic and cultural rights of the Arabs?

 

[A for Anarchy]

Why Jewish immigration sidetrack the Arabs? Even if all the Jews will immigrate to Israel there would still be 10% of non-Jews in Israel which is quite a significant minority. Without a mass immigration (which is not expected in the coming period) the Arabs would maintain their current share of the general population.

What Aliya got to do with the economic and cultural rights of the Arabs?

I have again provided statistics. 42% of the Jews worldwide stay in Israel which corresponds to 75% of Israel's population (data referenced earlier) with Arab Muslims being 17% of the country's population.

If it becomes 100% of Jews today stay in Israel Arab population becomes (simple math: 17 /(100+75*58/42)) = 8.3%

Are you telling me that this is not a significant drop? It has everything to do with rights in a democratic setup - the number of seats in the Knesset etc.

Mass Aliyah is not expected but there is significant numbers coming in every year and as you can see the state promotes this - not projecting Israel as a safe haven but rather as the Promised Land - which clearly makes a difference in a person's aspirational values if they need to immigrate even for the slightest of reasons.

Israel can be a safe haven for Jews, but Active promotion of Aliyah is wrong.

 

[nirreich]

I have again provided statistics. 42% of the Jews worldwide stay in Israel which corresponds to 75% of Israel's population (data referenced earlier) with Arab Muslims being 17% of the country's population.

If it becomes 100% of Jews today stay in Israel Arab population becomes (simple math: 17 /(100+75*58/42)) = 8.3%

Are you telling me that this is not a significant drop? It has everything to do with rights in a democratic setup - the number of seats in the Knesset etc.

Mass Aliyah is not expected but there is significant numbers coming in every year and as you can see the state promotes this - not projecting Israel as a safe haven but rather as the Promised Land - which clearly makes a difference in a person's aspirational values if they need to immigrate even for the slightest of reasons.

Israel can be a safe haven for Jews, but Active promotion of Aliyah is wrong.

Why if they drop to 10% they rights would be hurt? Their civil rights and political rights are secured in Israel's democratic regime and they are recognised as a de-facto national minority with its cultural distinctions. Arabic is an official language in Israel and there is special education curriculum for Arab schools. I do not understand what its got to do with Jewish immigration.

For what purpose is it matter if the Arabs are 10% or 20% of the population? Regarding their power in parliament it derives mainly from their political agenda and less from their number of sits. There are smaller parties than the Arab parties that has more power because they are needed for a government coalition and there are bigger parties which has similar influence as the Arab parties because they are in opposition.

You portray Jewish immigration as something which is design to hurt the non-Jews but you did not explain how exactly and why the Jewish nation state should ban Jews from immigrate and become its citizens. It is totally ridiculous argument - then why on earth should there be a Jewish state?

the Jewish nation state passed a law by the majority of parliament members that any Jew can immigrate to Israel if he wants. Can't the Israeli public (through its elected representatives) decides which people he wants to absorb and accept as part of its society, like in any other country? I fail to see what exactly the problem is .

According to the national narrative of the Jewish people the holly land is the promised land, why it so wrong to think like that? Because it was said in the bible? There are many ideas in the bible, some of them universal, some of them might have been adequate to ancient times and some, like the idea of the promise land, are still very much alive because people believe in it. I cannot understand why it is illegitimate.