How do people view Islamic organizations in Pakistan from the outside

[Dubious]

You are taking this way too seriously.... I only created this thread to clean another. I came up with the title on the spot just because neither @Secur nor @VCheng could actually convey with clarity what Al-Huda was about except some general statements from their perspective. They are obviously outsiders trying to give veiws about something which I felt they did not know much about. Maybe Secure knows more, but certainly not VCheng. He just latches on to anything negative to spread his brand of cynicism.

There really is not systematic way of going about this thread. But one thing is for sure that most people talking about such Islamic movements / organizations / institutions are basically outsiders and they can not adequately describe them. In that sense the thread's title is actually a subtle rebuke. That is all.

Ahh I see...I was merely trying to understand why the outside is soo concerned into showing us what they think when they clearly reject what we think of them

 

[Chak Bamu]

Like I said, let @Secur respond first. And then I will, ignoring your multiple attempts at personal attacks.

Yeah well you should have let Secur provide information before you presented him as authority just a few posts ago. Is it not ironic that you complain about being described a certain way when you do exact same thing again and again, with this post being a good example?

 

[Targon]

No Sir that doesn't damages we don't need to live in caves we would live in areas its secular minority who should go and live in caves if they want and act like crap and read Quran and Sunnah and prove them wrong from that if you can't than please keep quite

Secularism is not deciding the country affairs according to one religion, but treating every religion or non-believers equally, giving them all the basic human rights, despite some people interpreting it wrong, this is what Secularism is, if you're againts it and yes you're damaging the society, you're openly treating the people who are non-religious or believes in different religious or sects, you want them to obey you.

Compare yourself to guy I gave as an example, he lives with everybody in harmony, meanwhile looks like you would strangle an Atheist if you lived in same room.

 

[Secur]

If all things were forbidden, I dont understand how Farhat Hashmi managed to reach Canada...she didnt walk there...she used a plane...

Come on , you know how its done . See how the local Mullah will limit the oral health to Miswak yet will not hesitate to move around in a double cabin .

Describe common..what is common in the West is not an everyday thing for the Eastern woman...

I am sure that since I said that , I must have referred to this country's culture and society ?

 

[Zarvan]

Secularism is not deciding the country affairs according to one religion, but treating every religion or non-believers equally, giving them all the basic human rights, despite some people interpreting it wrong, this is what Secularism is, if you're againts it and yes you're damaging the society, you're openly treating the people who are non-religious or believes in different religious or sects, you want them to obey you.

Compare yourself to guy I gave as an example, he lives with everybody in harmony, meanwhile looks like you would strangled an Atheist if you lived in same room.

Yes I am against secularism crap and secularism is not what you said and Islam has own system and gives huge rights to minorities don't who don't know Islam talk we civilize societies unlike seculars whose entire focus is to turn people into Animals

 

[Targon]

Yes I am against secularism crap and secularism is not what you said and Islam has own system and gives huge rights to minorities don't who don't know Islam talk we civilize societies unlike seculars whose entire focus is to turn people into Animals

Ok I'm done, they already trained you well.

 

[Secur]

Ok I'm done, they already trained you well.

Took me a few days to come to the same conclusion , kudos !

 

[Dubious]

Yes , they do not , we just are hoping for the negative influences to stop and it appears that it is too much to hope for , looking at the current influence of radical groups , forget the extremists for now . Why is it a common occurrence that almost every movement or organization that claims to take inspiration from the religion in this country appears to be narrow minded and in opposition to the ways of the world ?

Can I ask a question here....Which religious movement or organization has actually preached Islam? Most preach a fiqh/ school of thought...I am yet to hear of one preaching Islam as a religion rather than a fiqh!

Is it just scotoma to take the easy way or is there indeed some truth to my allegation ? I mean seriously , quite a part of my family has gone in that way and I have seen this radicalization creep in , at a very young age . Do we really have to reject the modernity and cultural/societal practices to become pious and pure Muslims ?

Ask them this question....If they yell and are not able to answer then it is true they did not understand what they are following for this will you blame what was taught? If you are taught something and you reply wrong in an exam...who is to blame? You for your incapability to comprehend...

What exactly is this allergic reaction witnessed to scientific and worldly education by this religious crowd ? What is the basis of the obsession to look fourteen hundred years ago for each and every single of your needs , to reinvent the wheel as @Armstrong puts it ? Are we really trying to move back in time declaring the today's era inventions and ways as being not our way ?
Do these women really have to put themselves in self imposed solitary confinement to be modest ? Does it have to the iron clad full body armor necessarily for modesty , what is the definition of modesty by the way ? Since you mention in your post that the organization in question has Salafist tendencies , I will assume that you know a few of these things , I will leave their view of the world politics and this country's Govt and the whole extremist saga for now .

Well all this can be answered if you sit with them...some mind you are educated and will listen ..The problem comes when people prefer the culture over the religion....Where in Islam does it state about honor killing...however it was a practice that pre dates Islam...so why is Islam linked with it?

I am not trying to say that culture is holy cow , it keeps changing with time and it isn't some necessary thing to do and the less the merrier . But to reject it outright to go back to the roots as is the frequently heard phrase isn't by any chance , positive . These women come into your home , sweet tongued and in groups of 2-4 initially , you get the dars - so far its all good , then the gathering widens , more women come , suddenly you are learning how such and such festivals and days observed commonly are forbidden since they well didn't exist back then , next on the agenda are your modesty - you start caving in gradually limiting your exposure to the world , next you are being told how such and such practices are again forbidden and take my word for it that its quite a list , the invention of Kafirs and their harm come later on , well you get the picture . I have seen relatives of mine go that way and its not a pretty picture when you see sane and rational people suddenly believing it all true and them not meeting anybody in the family since well you are different . I am talking in general about these groups and I have reasons to believe that al-Huda with its massive reach would be quite near that picture seeing how their Canada-bound founder thinks that calamities in Pakistan are due to the immoral activities of the countrymen . Just another group teaching not the religion but the Salafist interpretation of it , then ?

The problem with out society is they fear to question...Allah says in the Quran over and over do ye not ponder! When they start to ponder instead rely on spoon feeding will be the day we can say Islam has arrived! The 1st word itself was Iqra! Read, recite, read with understanding...How many do that?

 

[Secur]

Well all this can be answered if you sit with them...some mind you are educated and will listen ..The problem comes when people prefer the culture over the religion....Where in Islam does it state about honor killing...however it was a practice that pre dates Islam...so why is Islam linked with it?

I have interacted with the Mullah-kind if you are asking me that , strange answers I have received , the most common of which is since it wasn't there in the days of Prophet it needs not to be followed now . No , Islam doesn't get linked with it but it does get linked with enslaving women due to the actions of a few , doesn't it ?

The problem with out society is they fear to question...Allah says in the Quran over and over do ye not ponder! When they start to ponder instead rely on spoon feeding will be the day we can say Islam has arrived! The 1st word itself was Iqra! Read, recite, read with understanding...How many do that?

A certain fear is necessary seeing the reality on ground . You do not dare go against the majority that easily , do you ?

Ask them this question....If they yell and are not able to answer then it is true they did not understand what they are following for this will you blame what was taught? If you are taught something and you reply wrong in an exam...who is to blame? You for your incapability to comprehend...

They have stopped the yelling part now , Akheilos , they now have resorted to weird bizarre logic of this being not our way . My response at last is always to go live in caves , this world isn't for you . You do understand that I am not blaming the religion itself but its followers ?

 

[Dubious]

Come on , you know how its done . See how the local Mullah will limit the oral health to Miswak yet will not hesitate to move around in a double cabin .

Well...that does need change ...

I am sure that since I said that , I must have referred to this country's culture and society ?

Yes but mr @VCheng took a different angle!

I have interacted with the Mullah-kind if you are asking me that , strange answers I have received , the most common of which is since it wasn't there in the days of Prophet it needs not to be followed now . No , Islam doesn't get linked with it but it does get linked with enslaving women due to the actions of a few , doesn't it ?

Now the next question arises is it Islam? If not then what is wrong? The wrong part is we refuse to use the fresh brain our lord gave us....

A certain fear is necessary seeing the reality on ground . You do not dare go against the majority that easily , do you ?

Oh you have no idea

They have stopped the yelling part now , Akheilos , they now have resorted to weird bizarre logic of this being not our way . My response at last is always to go live in caves , this world isn't for you . You do understand that I am not blaming the religion itself but its followers ?

Well, then ask the followers of prove...Like in the Quran itself it says if they tell you this and that tell them to bring forward their prove...make them prove it to you...if they can then you need to brush up on your knowledge (what better way to counter than knowing your opposition's books)?

 

[Dubious]

Like I said, let @Secur respond first. And then I will, ignoring your multiple attempts at personal attacks.

Your turn! or did you as @Chak Bamu said slip away with the snake oil you apply and ran off?

 

[Chak Bamu]

Yes , they do not , we just are hoping for the negative influences to stop and it appears that it is too much to hope for , looking at the current influence of radical groups , forget the extremists for now . Why is it a common occurrence that almost every movement or organization that claims to take inspiration from the religion in this country appears to be narrow minded and in opposition to the ways of the world ? Is it just scotoma to take the easy way or is there indeed some truth to my allegation ? I mean seriously , quite a part of my family has gone in that way and I have seen this radicalization creep in , at a very young age . Do we really have to reject the modernity and cultural/societal practices to become pious and pure Muslims ? What exactly is this allergic reaction witnessed to scientific and worldly education by this religious crowd ? What is the basis of the obsession to look fourteen hundred years ago for each and every single of your needs , to reinvent the wheel as @Armstrong puts it ? Are we really trying to move back in time declaring the today's era inventions and ways as being not our way ? Do these women really have to put themselves in self imposed solitary confinement to be modest ? Does it have to the iron clad full body armor necessarily for modesty , what is the definition of modesty by the way ? Since you mention in your post that the organization in question has Salafist tendencies , I will assume that you know a few of these things , I will leave their view of the world politics and this country's Govt and the whole extremist saga for now .

I am not trying to say that culture is holy cow , it keeps changing with time and it isn't some necessary thing to do and the less the merrier . But to reject it outright to go back to the roots as is the frequently heard phrase isn't by any chance , positive . These women come into your home , sweet tongued and in groups of 2-4 initially , you get the dars - so far its all good , then the gathering widens , more women come , suddenly you are learning how such and such festivals and days observed commonly are forbidden since they well didn't exist back then , next on the agenda are your modesty - you start caving in gradually limiting your exposure to the world , next you are being told how such and such practices are again forbidden and take my word for it that its quite a list , the invention of Kafirs and their harm come later on , well you get the picture . I have seen relatives of mine go that way and its not a pretty picture when you see sane and rational people suddenly believing it all true and them not meeting anybody in the family since well you are different . I am talking in general about these groups and I have reasons to believe that al-Huda with its massive reach would be quite near that picture seeing how their Canada-bound founder thinks that calamities in Pakistan are due to the immoral activities of the countrymen . Just another group teaching not the religion but the Salafist interpretation of it , then ?

What you have described is quite a common thing. Though I can not claim to know much about Al-Huda, I can understand your view of them. The following are my observations:

1. Any and every religious movement is going to base itself of some original material. For Muslims, it is Quran and Sunnah. Any perspective, any doctrine, any dogma is going to be based on them. This much is clear.

2. For any organization to work a certain way, they are going to have a certain perspective to go along with their methodology. In that Al-Huda is not an exception. As far as I know (and I'm open to correction), they are not a totally local phenomenon, but in their institution actually a 'foreign' import. Al-Huda as they began were well-education overseas Pakistanis with a refreshing perspective. Having spent half my adult life outside Pakistan, I can well understand how they might approach religion. It is totally understandable if they have a minimalist approach to social structures etc...

3. It is totally up to the people involved to accept them or not to accept them. They are a religious revival sort of group and they would only work if given a chance. So basically association with Al-Huda is a free choice. Other ladies want to be like them and that is why they are open to their influence. Now if someone finds meaning or redefines their lives according to Quran and Sunnah then it is their choice. I or you or anybody else (esp. likes of VCheng) have no say in this.

My dearest friend went through a change like that. While earlier I could just walk right into his home like a family member, I found that it was not possible any more. Though I felt constrained at first, I respected his choice and that of his family wholeheartedly. I am glad I did that. Our friendship has grown stronger because of it.

4. If any problem is to be found, it would be with how these people view society and efforts to change it. If they have a wish or a way or methodology that has an element of unlawfulness, then that would be reprehensible. I do not know enough to make that call about them.

5. You seem to have difficulty adapting to this change within your family. That could be a reason for some resentment. But a personal matter like that should not be allowed to influence your judgement about Al-Huda or similar entities.

6. I hope you do appreciate that any organization that wants a certain outcome has to work a certain way and would therefore teach a certain perspective. If you feel that it leads to extremism, when they do not actually break any laws, then it is not really a valid concern. You can criticize them for being narrow (focus is always narrow, so are most reformist movements), or committed a certain way. But that is purely a personal issue.

While I do not agree with Al-Huda's strictly Tawheed-centered minimalist and Salafist approach, there might be little that I could criticize. If they base their conduct on Quran and Sunnah, then I can only support them, and not criticize them.

7. Lastly, I would like to emphasize that during difficult times, people often turn to religion to find solace and meaning. You can not fault people in Pakistan for doing that. The only problem would be a rise in intolerance. In a well-functioning society, laws take care of that aspect.

I hope I have not obfuscated anything or spread any confusion. If I have ignored or forgotten to address any aspect, please let me know.

 

[Chak Bamu]

For Muslims religion never was and never will be a secondary thing Sir and no one is training so called bigots they are just teaching Quran and Sunnah if some guys have problem with Quran and Sunnah nothing can be done about it

You fail to understand his point.

Can you please shut down this thread

No, there are valid issues being discussed and while somethings are above your usual discourse, I can not throttle discussion just because of you.

However, if trolling starts, then that would be another matter.

 

[Zarvan]

You fail to understand his point.



No, there are valid issues being discussed and while somethings are above your usual discourse, I can not throttle discussion just because of you.

However, if trolling starts, then that would be another matter.

Sir I understood his point Sir as for V cheng he is going around bush but not coming to the point and you above summarized the thing specially when you said if the groups actions are according to Quran and Sunnah they can't be criticized and that is what I am saying and but still this thread is pretty much becoming troll

 

[JonAsad]

There is some nice discussion going on in here- -

@VCheng as you wanted @Secur has explained his point of views- now its your turn- I want this to continue-