How can Pakistan counter India’s ABM system?

[LiberalAtheist]

Your "entire" system is 15-20 years away from being deployed.

Nasr can only be stopped by a pre-emptive strike on the launch vehicle.The reason why it can evade Akash SAM is because of its maneuverability at low altitudes and very short time of flight (probably less than a minute).

Besides,if India starts intercepting Multi-barelled Rockets (hoping that anyone of them could be Nasr),then good luck

thats why the ABM date for production is in 2015? and i don't know what kind of math they teach you over there but that is not 15 or 20 years from now

Nasr is a 60km range missile if Patriot missiles can intercept Scud missiles then our Akash which is similar to the patriot can intercept the Nasr radars and satellites could detect its launch the Akash is maneuverable too why do you think its good for defense against SRBM's? adding on the Akash is entirely road mobile which means it can travel with advancing divisions and tank columns



to defend against your missiles we need ABM's that can intercept missiles of the 3,000km range class because anything over that would overshoot India but we are going for ABM's to defend against the 5,000km range class not just ABM's laser weapons are being developed too the missile threat from you guys won't stand out for long

 

[The Deterrent]

Can an ABM system deployed along the Pakistani border counter an SLBM heading for Kolkata from the other coast?

Can India afford the political fallout in asserting that Delhi and Mumbai are more worthy of protection than Kolkata or Bangalore?

Having a substantial SLBM capability will force India to triple or quadruple their ABM expenditure.

Did anybody mention Pakistan has a SLBM?...the program is only on papers,and will be deployed on our "future" Nuclear Submarine.Not happening till 2020.Till then

 

[The Deterrent]

thats why the ABM date for production is in 2015? and i don't know what kind of math they teach you over there but that is not 15 or 20 years from now

Nasr is a 60km range missile if Patriot missiles can intercept Scud missiles then our Akash which is similar to the patriot can intercept the Nasr radars and satellites could detect its launch the Akash is maneuverable too why do you think its good for defense against SRBM's? adding on the Akash is entirely road mobile which means it can travel with advancing divisions and tank columns



to defend against your missiles we need ABM's that can intercept missiles of the 3,000km range class because anything over that would overshoot India but we are going for ABM's to defend against the 5,000km range class not just ABM's laser weapons are being developed too the missile threat from you guys won't stand out for long

I already have clarified the timeline in post # 226.read it.

Scuds were big,unguided,longer ranged missiles.Nasr is battle-field range,sleek and guided+maneuverable quasi-ballistic missile.Aksah is India's first attempt on a SAM,and suddenly it becomes a tactical ABM.

Laser BMD won't be deployed till 2025-2030,according to DRDO chief.

 

[Developereo]

Did anybody mention Pakistan has an SLBM?...the program is only on papers,and will be deployed on our "future" SLBM.Not happening till 2020.Till then

2020 is not that far off. And the whole point is to make the Indians spread out their defense grid in anticipation of that threat. Although I admit we probably don't have the money for a substantial fleet.

 

[eiffe]

Did anybody mention Pakistan has a SLBM?...the program is only on papers,and will be deployed on our "future" Nuclear Submarine.Not happening till 2020.Till then

better to go for asat.. slbm wont do much under ABM

 

[LiberalAtheist]

I already have clarified the timeline in post # 226.read it.

Scuds were big,unguided,longer ranged missiles.Nasr is battle-field range,sleek and guided+maneuverable quasi-ballistic missile.Aksah is India's first attempt on a SAM,and suddenly it becomes a tactical ABM.

Laser BMD won't be deployed till 2025-2030,according to DRDO chief.

nonetheless the AD-1 AD-2 PDV and upgraded AESA ABM radar will be functional by 2015

battle field range proves my point the longer the range of the missile is the faster it travels and the harder it is to intercept Akash is a very capable SAM it can be used as a ABM because it can be fitted with a nuclear warhead and you underestimate it because its Indian but oh well ignorance is bliss

we do not need laser based BMD against you guys thats for China because they have MIRV's you guys do not.

 

[LiberalAtheist]

Can an ABM system deployed along the Pakistani border counter an SLBM heading for Kolkata from the other coast?

Can India afford the political fallout in asserting that Delhi and Mumbai are more worthy of protection than Kolkata or Bangalore?

Having a substantial SLBM capability will force India to triple or quadruple their ABM expenditure.

does Pakistan have a SLBM? let alone a submarine capable of launching a ballistic missile? do not kid your self bro

now see one of the advantages of having a growing economy means you can spend more on your military we only spend less then 2% of our entire GDP on defense if we could not afford it we would have not gone for it

get a SLBM and a submarine that fires SLBM's first sea based radars are there too that is if we need them satellites can detect the launch of SLBM's ABM is designed to defend areas against missiles launched from land air or sea that is the point of ABM

 

[Developereo]

does Pakistan have a SLBM? let alone a submarine capable of launching a ballistic missile? do not kid your self bro

Well, the discussion is not what does Pakistan have today to counter Indian ABM system, but what are the possible options.

now see one of the advantages of having a growing economy means you can spend more on your military we only spend less then 2% of our entire GDP on defense if we could not afford it we would have not gone for it

Yes, I agree that India has a huge advantage in terms of economic capability.

get a SLBM and a submarine that fires SLBM's first sea based radars are there too that is if we need them satellites can detect the launch of SLBM's ABM is designed to defend areas against missiles launched from land air or sea that is the point of ABM

I think the issue is not so much detection as having a dense enough battery of interceptors within range.

 

[The Deterrent]

nonetheless the AD-1 AD-2 PDV and upgraded AESA ABM radar will be functional by 2015

Dude claims aside....but it took much time for Phase-I (AAD,PAD) and it isn't going to be deployed till 2014,as per your own media.

battle field range proves my point the longer the range of the missile is the faster it travels and the harder it is to intercept Akash is a very capable SAM it can be used as a ABM because it can be fitted with a nuclear warhead and you underestimate it because its Indian but oh well ignorance is bliss

Then why are you jumping over that all of our BMs can be intercepted? aren't they faster?
Speed does not matter that much till ICBMs come into play...

I'm not under-estimating Akash.It is a very capable SAM against aircrafts.You are over-estimating its capabilities by saying that it can be used effectively as an ABM.

The problem with you guys is that you see only 1 vs 1 scenario and ignore the full-scale war scenario.Tell me,can India waste its SAMs for intercepting mere MBRL rockets?...and about the nuclear warhead.It is a very primitive method to intercept nukes with nukes (Russia still does it).But again,are you going to nuke your own atmosphere by intercepting rockets and our missiles with nukes? (remember that Akash is an endo-atmospheric SAM).

we do not need laser based BMD against you guys thats for China because they have MIRV's you guys do not.

See? you are dreaming.Yes,thinking of intercepting Chinese missiles is a dream...and I tell you what,you don't even know about your own Laser BMD.It will be capable of destroying BMs in the boost-phase.Sadly,this will work for Pakistan only,and that too if we launched from Punjab or Sindh.

So,happy dreams

 

[LiberalAtheist]

Dude claims aside....but it took much time for Phase-I (AAD,PAD) and it isn't going to be deployed till 2014,as per your own media.



Then why are you jumping over that all of our BMs can be intercepted? aren't they faster?
Speed does not matter that much till ICBMs come into play...

I'm not under-estimating Akash.It is a very capable SAM against aircrafts.You are over-estimating its capabilities by saying that it can be used effectively as an ABM.

The problem with you guys is that you see only 1 vs 1 scenario and ignore the full-scale war scenario.Tell me,can India waste its SAMs for intercepting mere MBRL rockets?...and about the nuclear warhead.It is a very primitive method to intercept nukes with nukes (Russia still does it).But again,are you going to nuke your own atmosphere by intercepting rockets and our missiles with nukes? (remember that Akash is an endo-atmospheric SAM).



See? you are dreaming.Yes,thinking of intercepting Chinese missiles is a dream...and I tell you what,you don't even know about your own Laser BMD.It will be capable of destroying BMs in the boost-phase.Sadly,this will work for Pakistan only,and that too if we launched from Punjab or Sindh.

So,happy dreams

and VK Saraswat confirmed that the ABM would be in production phase in 2015

Akash is a mobile SAM system with ABM capability its specifications take a look at them the Nasr is a battlefield range missile having 2 mobile missiles it cancels out and Pakistan would not use its strategic missiles on battlefield forces that is the point of having battle field and strategic long range missiles the ABM's in development are for defense against Ghauri Shaheen and all the other missiles

dude we would not waste a ABM on some artillery rocket besides the warheads used will be kinetic and gimbaled ensuring interception

yeah and if we cannot intercept the missile in the boost phase we will intercept it in the midcourse or terminal phases

any Chinese missile over 6,500km would overshoot India (from Harbin to Sulur is 6,300km) different lasers will be made and so will new missiles

 

[The Deterrent]

and VK Saraswat confirmed that the ABM would be in production phase in 2015

Yes,of phase I and maybe II...but in production,not deployment.ABMs will be deployed in major cities first,then military and Industrial installations.It is going to take more time then you presume.

Akash is a mobile SAM system with ABM capability its specifications take a look at them the Nasr is a battlefield range missile having 2 mobile missiles it cancels out and Pakistan would not use its strategic missiles on battlefield forces that is the point of having battle field and strategic long range missiles the ABM's in development are for defense against Ghauri Shaheen and all the other missiles

Just like Prahaar is launched from a single tube,Nasr is being launched from 1 tube only.....the final version of Nasr will have 4 tubes...

dude we would not waste a ABM on some artillery rocket besides the warheads used will be kinetic and gimbaled ensuring interception

Most of the guided missiles have gimball-based sensors...ABM has radar based...I am not denying that it is not maneuverable...

yeah and if we cannot intercept the missile in the boost phase we will intercept it in the midcourse or terminal phases

any Chinese missile over 6,500km would overshoot India (from Harbin to Sulur is 6,300km) different lasers will be made and so will new missiles

You don't know what you are talking about...Lasers are very expensive and difficult to operate...

 

[DARKY]

P.S I know a mixed up DT with quasi-ballistic missile and cruise missile...Here is how I see them.

1. Normal BM = exits and then re-enters atmosphere (e.g. Shaheen-I,Agni-I,Ghauri etc)
2. DT BM = follows a low apogee but still parabolic and ballistic trajectory.Remains inside atmosphere throughout the flight (for SRBM) and reenters (for IRBM).(e.g. Trident SLBM,Ghaznavi etc)
3. Quasi-Ballistic missile = add some maneuvering to DT BM (e.g. Nasr,LORA etc)
4. Solid-fueled cruise missile = maintain the altitude of the maneuvering DT BM (e.g. Shaurya,Iskander etc)

The trajectories shown are of the same missile launched at different elevation angles. [Note; keep the density of air and other natural factors in mind for different altitudes]
There's nothing extraordinary here.... from the apogee its just classical physics.....
http://curricula2.mit.edu/pivot/book/ph0403.html?acode=0x0200

All BM exists the mesosphere which as a decent density of air aswell as gravity waves.... be it DT or NT.... the height of apogee remains a question here.... Iskander, Shaurya etc... are different things.... Shaurya does not have any defined trajectory.... Its trajectory depends on the mission requirements.

For Instance get me the apogee of the DT missile of the Haft series and I am sure it would be out of mesosphere.... since no separations are performed in that part of atmosphere due to obvious reasons.

DF-31, DF-41, DF21D etc are Chinese missiles whose images are even hard to find what we get is from their inside sources which usually claimed DF-31 to be in the class of Agni III technology wise.... weather it is pure fanboyism or correct... I am not sure.... About Bulava yes it has Ring leaser gyros... for INS..... If would support this with a credible link once I find one.

Feeding GPS type data or terrain data for course correction is nothing but guiding the missile.... While in a flight a BM is monitored and feed with different types of course correction data... which its mission computer cannot perform.... It includes getting info about missile health for a successful mission until apogee.... people don't want their missile to crash down on their on land do they ??.... The smart computers does all these jobs without any help from ground stations or satellites....

No the blind maneuver are not much of a success If your ABM has a good active seeker..... they would home into the warhead performing whatever maneuver.... plus the maneuver at very high speeds is limited for Incoming warheads.

 

[IceCold]

Reading all the 16 pages of thread with Indians making it sound like we already lost the war was a bit too much. Indians really have the tendency to over estimate their own capabilities while severely underestimate ours. While i am not complaining about this attitude since it will be very help full to us, fact is no ABM has proved to be successful to intercept everything. Not even the US has managed to do so which as compared with India and Pakistan is far more advanced in this field and has relatively more time to counter missiles fired from the China or Russia. Unless of course Hanumaan decides to intervene him self on behalf of Indians, it is really naive to believe that India can counter Pakistans BM and CM threat. And let me also remind Indians here that in India Pakistan scenario, 2-3 hits( and i am being generous here) should be suffice for either one of us to send us back to stone age and Pakistan can easily manage those hits even if we use our F-16s for this purpose.
So ABM or no ABM, if things go down to nuclear exchange, Pakistan will not go down alone, so let us all pray that sanity prevails on both sides of the border.

 

[deckingraj]

Reading all the 16 pages of thread with Indians making it sound like we already lost the war was a bit too much. Indians really have the tendency to over estimate their own capabilities while severely underestimate ours. While i am not complaining about this attitude since it will be very help full to us, fact is no ABM has proved to be successful to intercept everything. Not even the US has managed to do so which as compared with India and Pakistan is far more advanced in this field and has relatively more time to counter missiles fired from the China or Russia. Unless of course Hanumaan decides to intervene him self on behalf of Indians, it is really naive to believe that India can counter Pakistans BM and CM threat. And let me also remind Indians here that in India Pakistan scenario, 2-3 hits( and i am being generous here) should be suffice for either one of us to send us back to stone age and Pakistan can easily manage those hits even if we use our F-16s for this purpose.
So ABM or no ABM, if things go down to nuclear exchange, Pakistan will not go down alone, so let us all pray that sanity prevails on both sides of the border.

Then you totally failed to understand the threat that ABM will bring to Pakistan...I as an adversary will not mind you guys thinking like that...but then let me share my thoughts here...


- Who told you that India's ABM is there to save India from a nuclear frenzy luanched by Pak??? Even if there is mid-course interception don't you think the debris are going to fall on India only???

Let me show some of the threats/headache's that ABM brings on the table...Let's assume India's ABM is in place and deployed. With that assumption set in stone let me start with the favourite topic of members here i.e. Nuclear war..

- A conventional war is on b/w India and Pakistan. India is making a good headway and Pak is finding it very hard to contain India. Pak establishment decides it is time to use nukes. Now Pak best bet is to launch a frenzy in order to destroy as much of India/indian assets as possible to minimize the retaliation. Now with ABM in place this job becomes many notches harder. Atleast you would want to cripple India by taking main cities. In order to achieve that you will have to launch a much higher number of missiles then you would have done otherwise...However preparing such a massive launch and avoid detection is going to be almost impossible...What do you think India will do once our establishment is sure that you are going to launch nukes???

In short ABM will force you to lauch a higher number of missiles at us which will risk you loosing the most important paradigm of nuke frenzy i.e. SURPRISE. This can be very very dangerous.

Anyhow at the end no one win's nuclear war. So i will move to a realistic scenario...


- There was a terror attack on India and indian establishment decides it is time to make terrorists pay for it...Some pre-emptive strikes were authorized and carried by Indian forces. Now as a result Pak decides to teach India a lesson...

Obviously the first approach would be to teach India a lesson but also keep the theater of war small... The obvious choice would be to fire a couple of missiles to destroy a couple of sensitive(not hyper sensitive) areas. However with ABM working couple of those missiles will not bring in the desired results. The next choice would be to send in some fighter jets...which again is risky option since SAMS are a real threat...

See the headache right there....before ABM a few missiles was the best suitable answer to India's aggression which now is not going to be as effective as it would have been otherwise....So to achieve your desired results you will be forced to send in your fighter jets and risk loosing them...or fire a higher number of missiles which straighway would increase the theater of war and then again the risk of loosing surprise is always there...


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@Off Topic

If i look at history then i see lot of examples where Pakistani establishment has underestimated Indian might..though can't find similar examples on out side...so not sure why you have this impression that only Indians have habit of underestimating their adversary...

 

[The Deterrent]

The trajectories shown are of the same missile launched at different elevation angles. [Note; keep the density of air and other natural factors in mind for different altitudes]
There's nothing extraordinary here.... from the apogee its just classical physics.....
http://curricula2.mit.edu/pivot/book/ph0403.html?acode=0x0200

Dude,I'm done...you are applying free flight projectile physics to powered and guided ballistic missiles.

All BM exists the mesosphere which as a decent density of air aswell as gravity waves.... be it DT or NT.... the height of apogee remains a question here.... Iskander, Shaurya etc... are different things.... Shaurya does not have any defined trajectory.... Its trajectory depends on the mission requirements.

Yes,both Shaurya and Iskander don't have a defined trajectory.They are one step ahead of DT.

For Instance get me the apogee of the DT missile of the Haft series and I am sure it would be out of mesosphere.... since no separations are performed in that part of atmosphere due to obvious reasons.

All Pakistani missiles belong to the Hatf series.I presume you are talking about Ghaznavi.Well,I don't know its apogee.

DF-31, DF-41, DF21D etc are Chinese missiles whose images are even hard to find what we get is from their inside sources which usually claimed DF-31 to be in the class of Agni III technology wise.... weather it is pure fanboyism or correct... I am not sure.... About Bulava yes it has Ring leaser gyros... for INS..... If would support this with a credible link once I find one.

Ok...thanks.

Feeding GPS type data or terrain data for course correction is nothing but guiding the missile.... While in a flight a BM is monitored and feed with different types of course correction data... which its mission computer cannot perform.... It includes getting info about missile health for a successful mission until apogee.... people don't want their missile to crash down on their on land do they ??.... The smart computers does all these jobs without any help from ground stations or satellites....

Missile health monitoring and subsequent actions can be termed as AI.

But error correction by feeding GPS data is very crucial to give the missile very high accuracy.INS alone cannot give CEP of less than 100m for MRBMs.
I don't know whether its AI or not,but the mission computer obtains the coordinates on its own.

No the blind maneuver are not much of a success If your ABM has a good active seeker..... they would home into the warhead performing whatever maneuver.... plus the maneuver at very high speeds is limited for Incoming warheads.

You are not getting it.Whether the maneuver is blind or not,it is the same for the ABM.In both the cases,the ABM will have to face the same difficulty to counter the incoming missile.

All ABMs have active seekers...and all of them home into the target.But the target can be missed if the missile is maneuvering sharply.

P.S. Sorry for the late reply.