Hoodbhoy, I didn't expect this from you

[-blitzkrieg-]

Not agreeing to something is a different matter, Not accepting something is else.
I also have problems with situation in Pakistan, but what I saw in following video totally left me speechless.

From an honorable person to a traitor.
Or yeh background main Talian kon baja raha tha is Bakwas pe?
@Dubious @Major Sam @Syed Hammad Ahmed @dexter

The same guy who used to be hell bent on proving that Jinnah wanted a secular Pakistan now says he was confused..

 

[Longhorn]

Here is your problem Longhorn... Not all Pakistanis understand the context some are peddling!
If it is all a native discourse and everyone chimes in, well... good for them and good for all... a reasonable contextual debate is indeed the need of the hour... instead what you have is a guy frothing and turning blue... spewing a diatribe that most in that audience cannot contextualize. His subtle omissions and spiced edges are putting his audience in a trance ... who applaud his every utterance as prophetic.
Instead you compare him with ones who would take a life for far less... yet the ultimate orator satan itself is here to stay till the very last day and NOT blowing up on someone's face. The ultimate free speech guy!
These minions follow a very western tradition in lying at your face and peddling facts... while knowing fully well their own spin and lies without flinching a muscle... and on your face...

He may be frothing as you put it, indeed he may be talking absolute bollocks, but if his narrative is wrong then is there no one among 220 million Pakistanis to counter his argument or has the whole country lost it's power of speech and debate.
If he's wrong, and he may well be, why are people not jumping to counter his view.
If not one amongst 220 million people has the ability or inclination to present a counter argument then we must assume that he's right by default.

Here is your problem Longhorn... Not all Pakistanis understand the context some are peddling!
If it is all a native discourse and everyone chimes in, well... good for them and good for all... a reasonable contextual debate is indeed the need of the hour... instead what you have is a guy frothing at mouth and turning blue... spewing a diatribe that most in that audience cannot contextualize. His subtle omissions and spiced edges are putting his audience in a trance ... who applaud his every utterance as prophetic.
Instead you compare him with ones who would take a life for far less... yet the ultimate orator satan itself is here to stay till the very last day and NOT blowing up on someone's face. The ultimate free speech guy!
These minions follow a very western tradition in lying at your face and peddling facts... while knowing fully well their own spin and lies without flinching a muscle... and on your face...

I'm sorry, but how do you know who was in the audience, what they were understanding, how they were contextualising his words and why they were applauding?
A lot of assumptions there.
A simpler and more honest way of looking at it might be that they were agreeing with him and that is why they were applauding him.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

He may be frothing as you put it, indeed he may be talking absolute bollocks, but if his narrative is wrong then is there no one among 220 million Pakistanis to counter his argument or has the whole country lost it's power of speech and debate.
If he's wrong, and he may well be, why are people not jumping to counter his view.
If not one amongst 220 million people has the ability or inclination to present a counter argument then we must assume that he's right by default.


I'm sorry, but how do you know who was in the audience, what they were understanding, how they were contextualising his words and why they were applauding?
A lot of assumptions there.
A simpler and more honest way of looking at it might be that they were agreeing with him and that is why they were applauding him.

So, put it this way... you have a guy with an agenda... but this guy though is perhaps harmless, neutered even... he's been had ....
220 million Pakistanis don't run amok with an agenda and change minds. This guy is confused yet he projects this confusion on his inability to understand the events which brought about a state ... in which another person with an agenda "Jinnah" did manage to bring change and a state. So, on this regard this guy plays satan's minion card ... guy who creates doubts...
Besides, except for this guys nuisance value there is no social upheaval or unrest caused by his narrative... which may prompt most to not even consider a response... your assumption that if no one presents a response makes his argument correct by default is laughable. Just contextualize it in real world...

That being said some will be influenced, others not. But, to know if someone is genuine in their argument... it is incumbent upon you to know that person's frame of reference.

 

[SQ8]

I think the " approval of the West" is a stick that is used to beat anyone that espouses liberal, inclusive or tolerant views.
Everyone has a right to voice their idea of what kind of a country they wish Pakistan to be.
Everyone has a right to air their views without fear.
I'm not sure why people are so afraid to hear an alternative opinion. These people don't go around killing people, they present their opinions in a civilised way. We should listen to what they have to say and then respond with a counter narrative if we have one. That's how it works.
Varied opinions are a good thing.
They make for an open and healthy society.

Alternative views aren’t the problem-
One should always pursue an alternative view and search for evidence to support it. But when its the need for presenting the view without evidence then its just to repeat a politically correct narrative for an non-Pakistani audience.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

That's how democracy and a free society works.

These things are idealized concepts and don't exist in real life. There is no absolute freedom of speech, ever. Certain society's have taboo subjects, ours is blasphemy, army, and founders, for the West it is Holocaust and Israel.

Why is your vision of Pakistani society more valid than their vision of a Pakistani society. Are they not equal citizens like you? Don't equal citizens have equal rights? Why should your preference prevail? Why are you so sure your vision is right and their's is wrong?

Not all Viewpoints are valid or useful for the health of a society.

We need to learn to let people talk without labelling them traitors or anti nationals.

It depends on what they say, what motives they have, and who are their sponsors/supporters.

 

[Longhorn]

If I was to answer each reply to my posts I'd be here all day so I'll just give my opinion and let others comment on it.
Each and every individual has the right to think, to form an opinion, to voice it.
But there is a condition. It has to be within the law.
It doesn't have to conform to a preconceived narrative, whether national or official, whether universal or parochial, whether popular or unpopular.
It only has to conform with the law.
That is why the law exists. It defines boundaries, it tells people what they can or cannot do and how far they can go.
A citizen is free to do or say what he wants within those legal boundaries regardless of whether he is in any one person's opinion, right or wrong. He does not have to take into account someone else's political or religious sensibilities. It is for each person that disagrees to counter his argument intellectually and peacefully.
If what that person says is illegal then he must be arrested, charged and punished according to law.
If he is within the law, but you don't think he should be allowed to say what he is saying, you write to your MNA and ask him to change the law.
This is how democracy works.
This is basic stuff but it is a concept a lot of people in Pakistan don't seem to understand.
They would have opposing voices silenced rather than confronted intellectually.
They would pick up a gun to silence them rather the pen.

It was Voltaire who said "I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it".
It is an adage Pakistanis need to understand and respect.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Pakistanis constantly crib about rising intolerance in India, how fascist Modi govt is. At the sametime, the way prof Hoodbhoy who is a public intellectual have been name called as traitor who shoud kicked out of pakistan for expressing his opinion is sheer hypocrisy of gargantuan proportions. Instead of making argument what he said, he is being name called for opening his mouth. These are same people who criticise Modi and Yoji and radical Hindu . You are clowns of Modi and yoji expect belong to different religion.

Modi and Yogi are you rulers, Hoodboy is just a wind up merchant, no comparison here.

Hoodboy can honk all the non sense he can , all day long, I care less, what I do care that since he is self proclaimed Physician, I want to know, as a concerned Pakistani, as to what he is teaching to the kids in university. Is he regulated or pushing his own narrative on the students.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Modi and Yogi are you rulers, Hoodboy is just a wind up merchant, no comparison here.

Hoodboy can honk all the non sense he can , all day long, I care less, what I do care that since he is self proclaimed Physician, I want to know, as a concerned Pakistani, as to what he is teaching to the kids in university. Is he regulated or pushing his own narrative on the students.

The latter is the answer unfortunately. Pakistan really drags its feet when it comes to identifying anti-national threats and dealing with them.

TLP, PTM, JUI-F etc. Could have been dealt with sooner before they became major problems.

 

[SIPRA]

Hoodboy can honk all the non sense he can , all day long, I care less, what I do care that since he is self proclaimed Physician, I want to know, as a concerned Pakistani, as to what he is teaching to the kids in university. Is he regulated or pushing his own narrative on the students.

Suna hae, kay lecture shuru tau physics say hota hae, lekin khatam politics per.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

The latter is the answer unfortunately. Pakistan really drags its feet when it comes to identifying anti-national threats and dealing with them.

TLP, PTM, JUI-F etc. Could have been dealt with sooner before they became major problems.

Just because this guy wear western cloth and talks like a typical brown sahib, he goes scot free. Imagine if a bearded professor is preaching the extremist right wing ideology in university. How the university administration will act? The day we start treating these extreme left wing liberals same as the right wing lot, and start following the middle path as prescribed by Sunnah, we will have sea difference in our society. Both these lot are the two face of same coin.

Unfortunately, state hasn't come to terms with dealing with liberal extremist with iron fist.

Suna hae, kay lecture shuru tau physics say hota hae, lekin khatam politics per.

And how that is allowed? Teacher doing politics is a serious breech of code of conduct. Why parents are not raising this issue to the uni administration.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Unfortunately, state hasn't come to terms with dealing with liberal extremist with iron fist.

The state only reacts like a patient on life support, only when the situation is dire does it respond.

We will have to wait for more extreme Leftist radicals putting pressure on the state, supporting separatist groups, and fighting religious groups in public for action to be taken.

Talking against Quaid e Azam, founding of Pakistan, and armed forces is enough to book him for sedition.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

If I was to answer each reply to my posts I'd be here all day so I'll just give my opinion and let others comment on it.
Each and every individual has the right to think, to form an opinion, to voice it.
But there is a condition. It has to be within the law.
It doesn't have to conform to a preconceived narrative, whether national or official, whether universal or parochial, whether popular or unpopular.
It only has to conform with the law.
That is why the law exists. It defines boundaries, it tells people what they can or cannot do and how far they can go.
A citizen is free to do or say what he wants within those legal boundaries regardless of whether he is in any one person's opinion, right or wrong. He does not have to take into account someone else's political or religious sensibilities. It is for each person that disagrees to counter his argument intellectually and peacefully.
If what that person says is illegal then he must be arrested, charged and punished according to law.
If he is within the law, but you don't think he should be allowed to say what he is saying, you write to your MNA and ask him to change the law.
This is how democracy works.
This is basic stuff but it is a concept a lot of people in Pakistan don't seem to understand.
They would have opposing voices silenced rather than confronted intellectually.
They would pick up a gun to silence them rather the pen.

It was Voltaire who said "I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it".
It is an adage Pakistanis need to understand and respect.

Why ride the high horse? Why doesn't he or anyone like minded defend or propagate his opinions here on this forum? Why would you or anyone who is FOR free speech be offended or in anyway appalled by people tearing his argument apart?

This guy has a platform unlike many who would have an opinion but no where to argue their case. This guy has a pedestal to thumb his minority view on everyone without merit... without anything to back him up ... where are his papers on solving all problems of Pakistan and make it an atheist, progressive state?

So, by all means let him speak his heart but don't stop others from shoving his opinion down the drain!

 

[SIPRA]

And how that is allowed? Teacher doing politics is a serious breech of code of conduct. Why parents are not raising this issue to the uni administration.

That is what I have heard, but not very sure.

But, I would like to give a general comment on this. Pakistan, as a state, has developed a tolerance, for such nonsense, in politics, media and other spheres; because it is not a new phenomenon. In fact, it started, right after 1940, when Lahore Resolution was passed. Pakistan came into being, with a lot of opposition, from a significant section of Muslims of British India, on different accounts, though they were in minority. That tradition is still continuing.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

If I was to answer each reply to my posts I'd be here all day so I'll just give my opinion and let others comment on it.
Each and every individual has the right to think, to form an opinion, to voice it.
But there is a condition. It has to be within the law.
It doesn't have to conform to a preconceived narrative, whether national or official, whether universal or parochial, whether popular or unpopular.
It only has to conform with the law.
That is why the law exists. It defines boundaries, it tells people what they can or cannot do and how far they can go.
A citizen is free to do or say what he wants within those legal boundaries regardless of whether he is in any one person's opinion, right or wrong. He does not have to take into account someone else's political or religious sensibilities. It is for each person that disagrees to counter his argument intellectually and peacefully.
If what that person says is illegal then he must be arrested, charged and punished according to law.
If he is within the law, but you don't think he should be allowed to say what he is saying, you write to your MNA and ask him to change the law.
This is how democracy works.
This is basic stuff but it is a concept a lot of people in Pakistan don't seem to understand.
They would have opposing voices silenced rather than confronted intellectually.
They would pick up a gun to silence them rather the pen.

It was Voltaire who said "I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it".
It is an adage Pakistanis need to understand and respect.

No one has a problem about free speech. He wasn't giving his opinion. He was trying to state a fact without backing it up. He is saying that Pakistan has no identity. Pakistan has no goals. It is a directionless state. The founder of Pakistan had no idea why he was getting a separate state.

He can make these claim but he also has moral duty due to his stature and as a teacher, to back these claim with evidence.

 

[Longhorn]

Why ride the high horse? Why doesn't he or anyone like minded defend or propagate his opinions here on this forum? Why would you or anyone who is FOR free speech be offended or in anyway appalled by people tearing his argument apart?

This guy has a platform unlike many who would have an opinion but no where to argue their case. This guy has a pedestal to thumb his minority view on everyone without merit... without anything to back him up ... where are his papers on solving all problems of Pakistan and make it an atheist, progressive state?

So, by all means let him speak his heart but don't stop others from shoving his opinion down the drain!

I have never tried to stop anyone speaking their mind. Quite the contrary.
What I object to is anyone, in this case Hoodbhoy, I might not even agree with him but that is neither here nor there, being automatically labelled as a traitor or anti national just because they hold a contrary view.

He is no such thing.