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Hollande's visit in India : 2 major deals on the table

If there are any All Weather Friends, that India can count on, it always have been Russia and France.
France's relatively independent policy right from Cold War Era (thanks to Charles De Gaul) is something that brought India closer to France and thankfully, the relations are as sweet and warm, as the delights that come out of a french pastry shop.
I would love to see some forward movement on EPR reactor deal for Jaitapur too. Defence deals apart, Airbus could also find some lucrative deals in fast expanding Indian civil aviation market. Alstom is providing 9,000 KW electric locomotive factory (One of the biggest rolling stock deal anywhere in world). the list goes on.
i can only see things improving and going from strength to strength.

If you only knew of the Russians, yes they have supported us, the reason has been hard cash and its own Geopolitical interests, today the term friend in geopolitics is an overused one. Nations have interests, not friends. The same goes for France.

I am not a proponent of having okayish relation hip but their past geopolitical gestures was made in view of their long term interests, this was also observed by Clinton during his visit here during ABV's Premiership, and he called for a bigger partnership with India. that was realized only further.

Russia has sold and given a lot of technology to the Chinese in the past. The Chinese Nuclear program benefited immensely because of their relations, check their partnership with Soviet union till the Cultural revolution began( E.g. : Chengdu with Mikoyan). and The meddling Of Russian in Inida's internal Affairs has been huge. From 1965-1980s (late) KGB's Second home was in New Delhi, and that served Soviet National interest not ours.
 
Ahem...

Bienvenue en Inde Monsieur Hollande!!!

I will remember France as the first country with which India established a Strategic Partnership in 1998 after we conducted nuclear tests.
May this visit further strengthen the robust strategic partnership between India and France. :)
 
If there are any All Weather Friends, that India can count on, it always have been Russia and France.
France's relatively independent policy right from Cold War Era (thanks to Charles De Gaul) is something that brought India closer to France and thankfully, the relations are as sweet and warm, as the delights that come out of a french pastry shop.
I would love to see some forward movement on EPR reactor deal for Jaitapur too. Defence deals apart, Airbus could also find some lucrative deals in fast expanding Indian civil aviation market. Alstom is providing 9,000 KW electric locomotive factory (One of the biggest rolling stock deal anywhere in world). the list goes on.
i can only see things improving and going from strength to strength.
Don't you think you forgot to mention "Israel" In our all weather friend category...

Secondly I think France more of a Business man then an all weather friend....first scorpene deal prime example of that...
 
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Don't you think you forgot to mention "Israel" In our all weather friend category...

Secondly I think France more of a Business man then an all weather friend....first scorpene deal prime example of that...
Yes, Israel can be added but relations with both France and Russia are, relatively speaking quite old.
 
Good stuff.. Primary point I would look at closely is the Rafale one. I just want it to be finalised and us to get the jets. Once that happens it will just kickstart a lot of things.

Vive la france!!!
 
Indeed that was a sad incident.
My question still remains, what was the point selling those subs to pakistan ?? not to mention the deal was laced with corruption..

The deal between two was signed around 1995s. May be.....
The point I wanted to make, India around that time didn't offered France enough benefits so that France can overlook Pakistan completely.
French sold us 50 Mirages, they found a bigger market in Pakistan with around 180 mirages.

Self interest come first for any nation.
 
Rafale, Scorpène : et si l'Inde sortait son chéquier fin janvier

Rafale, Scorpene: and if India took out his checkbook late January
By Michel Cabirol | 12/22/2015, 6:56 | 887 words


The journey of Francois Hollande in India already stirred much the world of defense. The president will travel on January 26 next on a state visit to India, where he will be the guest of honor of the national holiday ("Republic Day"). "This invitation reflects the quality and dynamism of the partnership Strategic between India and France, which will be further strengthened on this occasion ", has also felt the Elysee in a statement issued on 16 December.

Reportedly, two folders only should be part of the discussions between François Hollande and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in the field of defense: the finalization of the contract of 36 Rafale and control of six more Scorpene submarines after that of 2005 (a $ 3.5 billion contract for six submarines). The visit of Francois Hollande is also in line with the Paris Climate Conference where "India has played a key role for an ambitiousagreement", said the Elysee

Dassault close to a third contract Rafale
The Indian Ministry of Defence has also announced on December 8 in a statement that the negotiating team, which was formed to discuss the terms and conditions of the purchase of 36 Rafale has "recommended a draft agreement ".New Delhi, however, explained that the meetings between India and Dassault Aviation continued. These devices and associated systems and armaments to be delivered "in the same configuration" as required under the M-MRCA contract,which was canceled by New Delhi. The devices were tested and approved by the Indian Air Force. However, the ministry has requested that France retains responsibility for the maintenance of devices much longer than in M-MRCA.

The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, had assured early November the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier. "With India, the most important word, is patience",said Eric Trappier. "I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others after".Indian Prime Minister announced in April during his visit to France, an order for 36 aircraft from Dassault fighter "shelf" is ready to fly.

The estimated amount is around EUR 5 billion.
Combat aircraft that will be useful to protect the Indian airspace. Because during the last three years (2013 to November 2015), India has recorded 32 total violations of its airspace by aircraft of foreign countries.

An additional order for six Scorpene?
Since launching in early April the submarine Kalvari, the first Scorpene manufactured by the Indian shipyard Mazagon Dock (MDL), France also wants progress on the back of a new order.This dossier includes six Scorpene, whose shells are manufactured by Mazagon Dock again, which is "very good" in this area, says one in The Tribune. It was agreed in 2005 at the signing of the P-75 contract there is a "repeat order", an equivalent clause options for the supply of three to six more submarines manufactured by MDL.

This order would also give the workload in Mazagon Dock, which almost made the hulls of the first six Scorpene. This would provide the shipyard in Mumbai work for fifteen more years after 2018. The Kalvari should enter into operational service in September 2016 more than eleven years after the signing of the contract. Then the other five will enter service at a rate of nine months apart.

India helpless against China
Finally, India has launched a new international tender (P-75 I) for the acquisition of six additional submarines after a decision of the Board to acquire the Defense Ministry. Four submarines will be built by two Indian shipyards - MDL (3 submarines) and Hindustan Shipyard Limited (1) against six originally manufactured in India - on the basis of a new technology transfer. The other two would be abroad by foreign shipyard selected.

For India, the construction of new submarines is crucial to the power of the submarine fleet of China, which would have a sixty submarines, including 38 conventionally powered (diesel-electric). Especially since New Delhi has found that the number of submarines with diesel-electric propulsion in its navy is lower than that provided by the Naval Perspective Plan, partly due to delays in the construction of Scorpene. During the last 15 years, two submarines entered service while five were withdrawn during the same period.

In total, India currently in its fleet would have a nuclear submarine launcher of machines (SSBN), a nuclear attack submarine (SNA) and 15 submarines conventionally powered.Finally, the DRDO, the Indian research organization, has launched a project on the development of an AIP (Air Independent Propulsion), based on the technology of a phosphoric acid fuel cell (PAFC)

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK @FrenchPilot @anant_s @SR-91 @Aminroop @Water Car Engineer @kurup @Ind4Ever @Blue Marlin

Most important line highlighted above
EUR 5 Bn = 5 x1.09 = $5.45 Bn
(Euro /USD is now 1.09)
Total aircrafts = 36
Per aircraft avg cost inclusive of everything (weapons as a part of total cost of ownership) = $151 Mn or Euro 138.89 Mn

Offset = approx 50% = 2.725 Bn invested back


and people kept on saying $7Bn-$9Bn. $250 Mn per bird.. Here the latribune estimates just $151 Mn and that includes everything.......
 
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Rafale, Scorpène : et si l'Inde sortait son chéquier fin janvier

Rafale, Scorpene: and if India took out his checkbook late January
By Michel Cabirol | 12/22/2015, 6:56 | 887 words


The journey of Francois Hollande in India already stirred much the world of defense. The president will travel on January 26 next on a state visit to India, where he will be the guest of honor of the national holiday ("Republic Day"). "This invitation reflects the quality and dynamism of the partnership Strategic between India and France, which will be further strengthened on this occasion ", has also felt the Elysee in a statement issued on 16 December.

Reportedly, two folders only should be part of the discussions between François Hollande and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in the field of defense: the finalization of the contract of 36 Rafale and control of six more Scorpene submarines after that of 2005 (a $ 3.5 billion contract for six submarines). The visit of Francois Hollande is also in line with the Paris Climate Conference where "India has played a key role for an ambitiousagreement", said the Elysee

Dassault close to a third contract Rafale
The Indian Ministry of Defence has also announced on December 8 in a statement that the negotiating team, which was formed to discuss the terms and conditions of the purchase of 36 Rafale has "recommended a draft agreement ".New Delhi, however, explained that the meetings between India and Dassault Aviation continued. These devices and associated systems and armaments to be delivered "in the same configuration" as required under the M-MRCA contract,which was canceled by New Delhi. The devices were tested and approved by the Indian Air Force. However, the ministry has requested that France retains responsibility for the maintenance of devices much longer than in M-MRCA.

The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, had assured early November the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier. "With India, the most important word, is patience",said Eric Trappier. "I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others after".Indian Prime Minister announced in April during his visit to France, an order for 36 aircraft from Dassault fighter "shelf" is ready to fly.

The estimated amount is around EUR 5 billion.
Combat aircraft that will be useful to protect the Indian airspace. Because during the last three years (2013 to November 2015), India has recorded 32 total violations of its airspace by aircraft of foreign countries.

An additional order for six Scorpene?
Since launching in early April the submarine Kalvari, the first Scorpene manufactured by the Indian shipyard Mazagon Dock (MDL), France also wants progress on the back of a new order.This dossier includes six Scorpene, whose shells are manufactured by Mazagon Dock again, which is "very good" in this area, says one in The Tribune. It was agreed in 2005 at the signing of the P-75 contract there is a "repeat order", an equivalent clause options for the supply of three to six more submarines manufactured by MDL.

This order would also give the workload in Mazagon Dock, which almost made the hulls of the first six Scorpene. This would provide the shipyard in Mumbai work for fifteen more years after 2018. The Kalvari should enter into operational service in September 2016 more than eleven years after the signing of the contract. Then the other five will enter service at a rate of nine months apart.

India helpless against China
Finally, India has launched a new international tender (P-75 I) for the acquisition of six additional submarines after a decision of the Board to acquire the Defense Ministry. Four submarines will be built by two Indian shipyards - MDL (3 submarines) and Hindustan Shipyard Limited (1) against six originally manufactured in India - on the basis of a new technology transfer. The other two would be abroad by foreign shipyard selected.

For India, the construction of new submarines is crucial to the power of the submarine fleet of China, which would have a sixty submarines, including 38 conventionally powered (diesel-electric). Especially since New Delhi has found that the number of submarines with diesel-electric propulsion in its navy is lower than that provided by the Naval Perspective Plan, partly due to delays in the construction of Scorpene. During the last 15 years, two submarines entered service while five were withdrawn during the same period.

In total, India currently in its fleet would have a nuclear submarine launcher of machines (SSBN), a nuclear attack submarine (SNA) and 15 submarines conventionally powered.Finally, the DRDO, the Indian research organization, has launched a project on the development of an AIP (Air Independent Propulsion), based on the technology of a phosphoric acid fuel cell (PAFC)

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK @FrenchPilot @anant_s @SR-91 @Aminroop @Water Car Engineer @kurup @Ind4Ever @Blue Marlin

Most important line highlighted above
EUR 5 Bn = 5 x1.09 = $5.45 Bn
(Euro /USD is now 1.09)
Total aircrafts = 36
Per aircraft avg cost inclusive of everything (weapons as a part of total cost of ownership) = $151 Mn or Euro 138.89 Mn

Offset = approx 50% = 2.725 Bn invested back


and people kept on saying $7Bn-$9Bn. $250 Mn per bird.. Here the latribune estimates just $151 Mn and that includes everything.......
there have been a lot of media efforts (perhaps paid news) against Rafale purchase. i can certainly sense a pattern to malign Rafale, first on basis of cost and later by counter offers which are made to be shown more lucrative than Dassault's.
Rafale is best platform to suit our requirements and i hope signing of agreement in January will silence the critiques.
 
The deal between two was signed around 1995s. May be.....
The point I wanted to make, India around that time didn't offered France enough benefits so that France can overlook Pakistan completely.
French sold us 50 Mirages, they found a bigger market in Pakistan with around 180 mirages.

Self interest come first for any nation.
You spoke my words, its only business at the end. Why are we so gung ho with the French and comparing it with Indo Russian relation.
 
Most important line highlighted above
EUR 5 Bn = 5 x1.09 = $5.45 Bn
(Euro /USD is now 1.09)
Total aircrafts = 36
Per aircraft avg cost inclusive of everything (weapons as a part of total cost of ownership) = $151 Mn or Euro 138.89 Mn

Offset = approx 50% = 2.725 Bn invested back
Never calculate the cost of somthing buy dividing the total amount by the number of item beung purchased. you need to factor in maintainance, servicing, training, and most importantly WEAPONS. ooh and lets not forget the israel Hud which is not standard on the rafale. this will need to be implemented on to the jet which will increase the unit price. also they want french avionics that are not even standard on the rafale which will increase the price. in all 138 million euro is very high for a jet and i doubt that is the originalprice. but the price will be more than usual due to the avionics and equipment required being non standard on the rafale and will need to be comaptable.

seeing that a rafale costs 90 million euro and factor in the extra work/cost in purcuring and installing the non standard avionics, your looking at about 10-20 million euro extraso 110million on the high end.

note the rafale is cheaper than a Typhoon which if you factor r&d per unit your looking at (169(+/-1) million euro)
 
Never calculate the cost of somthing buy dividing the total amount by the number of item beung purchased. you need to factor in maintainance, servicing, training, and most importantly WEAPONS. ooh and lets not forget the israel Hud which is not standard on the rafale. this will need to be implemented on to the jet which will increase the unit price. also they want french avionics that are not even standard on the rafale which will increase the price. in all 138 million euro is very high for a jet and i doubt that is the originalprice. but the price will be more than usual due to the avionics and equipment required being non standard on the rafale and will need to be comaptable.

seeing that a rafale costs 90 million euro and factor in the extra work/cost in purcuring and installing the non standard avionics, your looking at about 10-20 million euro extraso 110million on the high end.

note the rafale is cheaper than a Typhoon which if you factor r&d per unit your looking at (169(+/-1) million euro)

Sir, you missed what i wrote in bracket

Per aircraft avg cost inclusive of everything (weapons as a part of total cost of ownership) = $151 Mn or Euro 138.89 Mn

TCO model for rafale is this
9260f8a5.jpg


So when i am talking average and divide i am including all those components as defined in the pic
 
Sir, you missed what i wrote in bracket

Per aircraft avg cost inclusive of everything (weapons as a part of total cost of ownership) = $151 Mn or Euro 138.89 Mn

TCO model for rafale is this
9260f8a5.jpg


So when i am talking average and divide i am including all those components as defined in the pic
is there a breakdown of what each step costs?
 
is there a breakdown of what each step costs?
no sir, the ex dassault person who gave this picture in the forum some months back did not give break up. What he did say is based on the demand, there could be subtractions from the plan and customised version may have higher proportion for example for Indian ones due to asking for longer maintenance plan.
 

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