HIT's Muhafiz APC Proves To Be A Deadly Embarrassment

[Abu Zolfiqar]

there's no reason why civilians should be having armour piercing bullets in their possession

so as i always say -- grill the suspects and find out who is their source for these types of deadly merchandise

i still defend HITs track record.....i dont see it as corruption; obviously if further armour plating is required then costs will rise and its Sindh govt. that will pocket this expense....even Turkish armoured security vehicles (which also use Range Rover/Defender platform) have varying armour level protections (e.g. Level I through Level IV.....run flat tyres of different types; armour protection, or explosives protection for even the engine block; self-sealing fuel cell; the list goes on and on)


Karachi needs to be de-weaponized; it's not wild wild west, it's the financial capital of Pakistan

 

[Irfan Baloch]

It was mostly a case of the policemen opening their doors for some air, and resulting in a bullet coming in.

not in every case

granted there were some cases where fatalities due to AP rounds. these vehicles are not meant for an enemy armed with heavy duty combat arsenal. no amount of slope of a conventional and thin armour of a vehicle in the jeep class chassis can withstand 12.7 or 7.62 AP round.
one would need a tracked vehicle or a bigger chassis vehicle with more powerful engine to support that extra armour. might as well bring a light tank instead to shut up the scandal hunting reporters who just pick up a word from somewhere and open-up their conspiracy theory

there's no reason why civilians should be having armour piercing bullets in their possession

so as i always say -- grill the suspects and find out who is their source for these types of deadly merchandise

i still defend HITs track record.....i dont see it as corruption; obviously if further armour plating is required then costs will rise and its Sindh govt. that will pocket this expense

Karachi needs to be de-weaponized; it's not wild wild west, it's the financial capital of Pakistan

Sir

those guys had 12.7 mm and rocket launchers as well. what the hell?
there must have been anti material rifles at play as well.. I have seen the sizes of some holes on the vehicles those rounds left, they were about 13 to 15 mm or more like almost a size of a baby's fist. thats mad power.
no civilian armoured vehicle is designed to withstand that amount of raw power.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

during 2007 MQM-PPP turf war i noticed they had access not only to heavy firearms but also RPGs

it's a huge failure on the part of the authorities, bottom line

 

[Last Hope]

Access to RPGs, several hundreds, access to Hand Grenades, thousands of them, access to 5.56mm SMGs, 7.62mm assault rifles, 9mm pistols and (possibly 14.7mm) AA too.

Their munition/arsenal and way of political control over Karachi is in such a way they can withstand full-scale operation by Army and FC, unless the government of Pakistan is willing to lose multi-Billion dollars in loss of trade and damage to civilian/government properties. Heck we get threads here about buying/selling a 7.62mm assault rifles for cheap price as low as 120k from Karachi.

When they are prepared for a full-scale operation similar to a war, they mustn't be taken lightly. And adding more to it, the Sindh police is working with them as allies giving them extra protection.

 

[Armstrong]

A noob question : How well would a Mohafiz compare with say a standard 'Humvee' if in the same situation ?

 

[ziaulislam]

Access to RPGs, several hundreds, access to Hand Grenades, thousands of them, access to 5.56mm SMGs, 7.62mm assault rifles, 9mm pistols and (possibly 14.7mm) AA too.

Their munition/arsenal and way of political control over Karachi is in such a way they can withstand full-scale operation by Army and FC, unless the government of Pakistan is willing to lose multi-Billion dollars in loss of trade and damage to civilian/government properties. Heck we get threads here about buying/selling a 7.62mm assault rifles for cheap price as low as 120k from Karachi.

When they are prepared for a full-scale operation similar to a war, they mustn't be taken lightly. And adding more to it, the Sindh police is working with them as allies giving them extra protection.

well, i dont think so they can with stand targeted pocket operations..problem is political, sindh govt wasnt ready to take them in first place..thastw hy they used police force isntead of rangers

the operation purpose was a show piece rather than an objective one

 

[jha]

Access to RPGs, several hundreds, access to Hand Grenades, thousands of them, access to 5.56mm SMGs, 7.62mm assault rifles, 9mm pistols and (possibly 14.7mm) AA too.

Their munition/arsenal and way of political control over Karachi is in such a way they can withstand full-scale operation by Army and FC, unless the government of Pakistan is willing to lose multi-Billion dollars in loss of trade and damage to civilian/government properties. Heck we get threads here about buying/selling a 7.62mm assault rifles for cheap price as low as 120k from Karachi.

When they are prepared for a full-scale operation similar to a war, they mustn't be taken lightly. And adding more to it, the Sindh police is working with them as allies giving them extra protection.

Someone someday will have to clear the mess. A city can not be allowed to run by thugs. We had a similar situation in Mumbai in 90's. They did not have access to Anti-material rifles or, RPGs back then but situation was pretty bad. A batch of encounter cops brought them under control. Dont know if same can work in Karachi or, not. But something needs to be done as they would have started storing ammunitions for next operations.

 

[Last Hope]

Someone someday will have to clear the mess. A city can not be allowed to run by thugs. We had a similar situation in Mumbai in 90's. They did not have access to Anti-material rifles or, RPGs back then but situation was pretty bad. A batch of encounter cops brought them under control. Dont know if same can work in Karachi or, not. But something needs to be done as they would have started storing ammunitions for next operations.

Encounters by who? This is political insurgency. They have strong holds in the Sindh Government and Police. The new chief of Civilian Intelligence is from the same party. A all-out operation is needed, which is going to cost Billions for economy as Karachi is Pakistan's financial hub and this is the pro factor for the militants.

In recent operations the Rangers and FC recovered 14.7mm AA guns. What for do they need it? Not the mention the anti-material munition, huge quantity of explosives. Plus, civilian living in the city will be used as human shield, with evacuation prior to any operation being difficult as the word would reach the HQ.

 

[Mav3rick]

Tavor in Karachi..? Incredible...

The operation proved to be a huge moral booster for the thugs. Well planned operations will be needed like Brazilians do .

There needs to be a political will and consensus for that. Police force may not be equipped/trained to handle such criminals with perfect defensive positions and superb weapons. However, the special/elite anti terrorism units of the same police force or perhaps even the paramilitary or military force may clear the area once and for all.

However, as these thugs were (and probably still are) being patronized by Zulfiqar Mirza (and many other senior PPP leaders) there's only so much that PPP will do against them just to ensure they stay in line. Zulfiqar Mirza (while he was provincial home minister) issued 300k weapon licenses to people like these Liyari thugs and many were prohibited bore weapons. People like ZM are so obsessed with the possibility that almost Rs. 100 million can be extorted from businessmen in Karachi on a daily basis and so blinded by their hate of one particular ethnicity they would go to any lengths, even one that can potentially destroy the golden egg laying chicken of the country.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

A noob question : How well would a Mohafiz compare with say a standard 'Humvee' if in the same situation ?

standard humvee is for civilian use and wont protect against nothin....humvees used by USMC come in different variants

in fact iraq war/gulf war II showed that their humvees were unable to withstand the impact of certain mines and road based IEDs...even certain forms of small arms ammunition,,,there was huge debate in their ministry of defence and eventually they upgrade the platform with thicker armour protection


Up-Armored Humvee M1114

Up-Armored HUVMEE (UAH)


mind u, here we are talking military application not civilian/police

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

A noob question : How well would a Mohafiz compare with say a standard 'Humvee' if in the same situation ?

standard humvee is for civilian use and wont protect against nothin....humvees used by USMC come in different variants

in fact iraq war/gulf war II showed that their humvees were unable to withstand the impact of certain mines and road based IEDs...even certain forms of small arms ammunition,,,there was huge debate in their ministry of defence and eventually they upgrade the platform with thicker armour protection


Up-Armored Humvee M1114

Up-Armored HUVMEE (UAH)


mind u, here we are talking military application not civilian/police

 

[jha]

There needs to be a political will and consensus for that. Police force may not be equipped/trained to handle such criminals with perfect defensive positions and superb weapons. However, the special/elite anti terrorism units of the same police force or perhaps even the paramilitary or military force may clear the area once and for all.

However, as these thugs were (and probably still are) being patronized by Zulfiqar Mirza (and many other senior PPP leaders) there's only so much that PPP will do against them just to ensure they stay in line. Zulfiqar Mirza (while he was provincial home minister) issued 300k weapon licenses to people like these Liyari thugs and many were prohibited bore weapons. People like ZM are so obsessed with the possibility that almost Rs. 100 million can be extorted from businessmen in Karachi on a daily basis and so blinded by their hate of one particular ethnicity they would go to any lengths, even one that can potentially destroy the golden egg laying chicken of the country.

Hmm...Thats scary situation. For any such operation PPP has to go it seems. And that is just not possible as it has strong foothold in rural Sindh.

In my native there was a Gnagster - Sahabuddin. He was also protected by the then CM of Bihar Lalu. No one dared to touch him or, any of his goons. In 2005 the govt. changed in Bihar and so changed his fortune. Whole area is peaceful now and He is in Jail for last 7 years.

 

[Mav3rick]

Hmm...Thats scary situation. For any such operation PPP has to go it seems. And that is just not possible as it has strong foothold in rural Sindh.

In my native there was a Gnagster - Sahabuddin. He was also protected by the then CM of Bihar Lalu. No one dared to touch him or, any of his goons. In 2005 the govt. changed in Bihar and so changed his fortune. Whole area is peaceful now and He is in Jail for last 7 years.

There's another problem here as well......our media. Media here portrayed the lead gangster as a hero on TV. He was being aired on each and every channel airing live interviews even during the police operation.

 

[MilSpec]

Incorrect reporting IMO. Those holes were caused by steel-tipped armour piercing rounds, no way a regular 7.62 can cross a metal plate, a land cruiser's chasis is enough to stop them!

As you would know, most of 7.62 X 39 milsurp ammo (chinese stuff ) is steel cored, which works like a low cost Armor piercing bullet

 

[MilSpec]

not in every case

granted there were some cases where fatalities due to AP rounds. these vehicles are not meant for an enemy armed with heavy duty combat arsenal. no amount of slope of a conventional and thin armour of a vehicle in the jeep class chassis can withstand 12.7 or 7.62 AP round.
one would need a tracked vehicle or a bigger chassis vehicle with more powerful engine to support that extra armour. might as well bring a light tank instead to shut up the scandal hunting reporters who just pick up a word from somewhere and open-up their conspiracy theory

hydrostatic shock from .308 bullet can leave a pretty big holes, and then brittle alluminium stampings are common due to improper mixing and under heating