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Hangor Class Submarine Project | Updates & Discussions

China would do us a favour by not transferring its top of the line tech. If our sitting armed forces chief can conspire and bent over to the US, he can also sell off military secrets.

I agree - Pakistan had only recently "turned" the corner and earnt their trust as demonstrated by the sale of the PL15s/J10CE's etc..

Will be interesting to see the fallout of this in the months to come - and there will be fallout.
 
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I agree - Pakistan had only recently "turned" the corner and earnt their trust as demonstrated by the sale of the PL15s/J10CE's etc..

Will be interesting to see the fallout of this in the months to come - and there will be fallout.
I think the fallout, at least in military to military contact will be minimal. There maybe economic repercussions but even there the Chinese are trapped and forced to deal with the government at hand despite their unusually strong and open support for the IK setup.
 
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So we have managed to almost isolate ourselves from Europe, US and now China. Good going....
 
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So why were they using German engines on their own subs?
The MTU 16V396 SE8 was MTU design & patent, licensed made in China by Shanxi Diesel (中国山西柴油机公司) and used in early batches of 039 aka 039A, 039AG.
  • This model number was specified in the signed contract between China-Thailand in May 2017
  • Later Germany refused to give export permit, German military attaché “The export was refused because of its use for a Chinese Military/Defence industry item. China did not ask/coordinate with Germany before signing the Thai-China contract, offering German MTU engines as part of their product”
  • Thai opposition party led by Yutthapong Charasathien of Pheu Thai (note: the party linked to exiled premier Thaksin Shinawatra) uses this "breach of contract" loophole to torpedo the deal.
  • Technically speaking, MTU 16V396 SE8 can be easily substituted by a Shanxi Diesel equivalent or maybe even further improved version (new batches of 039 aka 039B/C use undisclosed model of diesel engine), but it's a Thai domestic-political decision to kill the deal.
 
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Can we keep political posts off here please. Concentrate on the topic at hand. I'm sure the Chinese will find a solution if not a German buy for submarines is no problem for Pakistan at all, sale or fund wise.
 
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If order of diesel propulsion submarine can not be fulfilled due to for example engine restriction from Germany. then China will provide nuclear propulsion to Pakistan. I do not know how that helps Germany or Europe anyway.

Chinese AIP technology is not from Germany rather from Sweden sterling type which Chinese have reengineered totally themselves and exceeding their original ones.

PN A90B are reserviced with Turkish technology and first one is already done and second one is in progress.
 
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Propulsion engineering is one of the Chinese military industry’s biggest structural flaws, as the bulk of engines used in Chinese submarines is foreign-made. The Song and Yuan-class attack submarines, which make up the majority of China’s conventional submarine fleet, are powered by MTU 396 SE84 series diesel engines built in Germany.
The chance for PN to source an original Type 039 engine for its sub is grim given the German reticence to supply the engines to China. They've also denied Pakistan's request for supply of air independent propulsion (AIP) systems for its submarines.
A-90 B support is also ceased. France has refused to lend support for A-90 maintenance. And as long as it isn't sorted out, India will continue to breath easy.
https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/in...nights-to-enemies-dangerous-2022-04-15-769973




You need to get your info from good sources, not Indian media. 3 A90-Bs are all being upgraded in Turkey, with very modern systems, these and the AIPs make them a more deadly threat then anything in the IN right now. In terms of breathing easy I think half the IN spent time chasing one A90-B without any success in Feb 2019. Regards to Indian subs, well, lets just say we have several videos.....
 
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Your noisy Chinese submarines will be hunted down by our P8i poseidon and MH60R 🚁
Plz update the Confidential Noise level readings, Acoustic Signatures and Electronic db scale measurements you seem to posses on Chinese subs which make you confident that they would be detected .

By the Way :

 
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Lol! Are you high on weed? Arihant has no hatches there. The Arihant is based on double hull design with a sealed nuclear reactor section. Except for the latest French nuclear submarines that have a hatch above the reactor for quicker refuelling.
No other country with nuclear submarines have such a system.
Although the Arihant’s core is not designed to operate for the submarine’s lifetime and will need refuelling, it does not have a hatch. To refuel, the hull will have to be cut open and welded back
You avoided the question on Detection. That shows Who is on weed.

On the Hatch issue - I quoted an Israel source.

Better contact them to correct the story against the great Indian Navy.
 
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Your noisy Chinese submarines will be hunted down by our P8i poseidon and MH60R 🚁


You go educate yourself.

Written 2 years ao.


Since then, Chinese subs must be quieter than the ocean. Can only be found by the hole of silence in midst of the noisy ocean of 90 decibels

Quiet as a Mouse

According to the naval expert H. I. Sutton, Chinese submarine designs and manufacturing were initially far behind that of the United States. In an article for Forbes, he explained that, “the aim is to make the submarine as quiet as the ambient sea noise around it, typically around 90 decibels. Western submarines got close around 20-30 years ago. China has been seen as lagging.”

Sutton described how the Shang-class may be getting as quiet as some of the U.S. Navy’s quieter subs, “according to unclassified U.S. Navy estimates, the early Type-093 attack submarines are about 110 decibels. That is about the same as the U.S. Navy’s improved Los Angeles Class boats,” which were built in 1982.

Improvements in reactor coolant pump design may have helped reduce the Shang-class’ acoustic signature. Improved anechoic tiles—rubberized tiles glued to the outside of a submarine’s hull that absorb enemy sonar—may also have helped the Shang-class to pipe down.

Postscript

Since launching the first of the Shang-class in the early 2000s, the PLA Submarine Force has launched two improved versions of the Shang-class, which would in all likelihood be even quieter than the early Type 093s. It may be just a matter of time before Chinese submarines are as quiet at American submarines—if it hasn’t already happened.
 
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Someone wants to "Learn" Detection :

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Your noisy Chinese submarines will be hunted down by our P8i poseidon and MH60R 🚁




Indian submarines are absolutely insignificant compared to the hunting and tracking of USA submarines. Unless you think Indian submarines are much much better and more potent than USA submarines.

If so, do tell us all.



And China got movable underwater mountain to position where USA submarine Connecticut found to her horror and bang right into. And USA submarines all remembered to close their hatches before diving unlike India.



What China can do to hunt and know where the USA submarines hiding.
You think Indian subs can hide better than USA submarines? With hatches closed?
If USA subs cannot hide from the hundreds of underwater sonar buoys sending information back to super computers to know their directions and speed, Indian subs can hide better than USA subs?

AS SAID, YOU BETTER EDUCATE YOURSELF MUCH MUCH MORE BEFORE YOU EVEN THINK OF WRITING AND EXPOSING TO THE READERS HERE HOW LAUGHABLE YOU REALLY ARE

China sonar supposed to listen to fish and whales. .
You heard of the Great Wall of China.
Another Great Wall China build will be the Underwater Great Wall of China.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutt...al-waters-of-south-china-sea/?sh=3b72e5cb74f3

China Builds Surveillance Network In South China Sea


And what about using lasers and magnets?


China Is Using Lasers And Magnets To Reveal Enemy Submarines​

Bad news for the U.S. Navy.

by Michael Peck
Key Point: Should the U.S. Navy be concerned? Are the days of truly stealth subs over?
China is making great efforts to detect U.S. submarines.
Scientists at a Chinese research institute say they developed an airborne laser that might eventually detect hostile subs even at great depths.
Meanwhile, scientists at another institute also claim to have developed a magnetic detection device that might spot subs.
Researchers at the Shanghai Institute of Optics and Fine Mechanics say they have tested lasers that can detect objects more than 160 meters (525 feet) beneath the water, or twice as deep as current equipment.
“The Shanghai team used a beam generated by green and blue lasers,” according to the South China Morning Post. “As light – even laser, a pure, coherent form of light – scatters faster in water than in air, the beam must be very powerful to go deep. Laser devices generate an energized beam of light of a single color, or frequency. Green and blue beams can penetrate water with relative ease.
“Chen’s team also developed a highly sensitive detector that can pick up a single photon reflected from a target, allowing the device to detect bright objects close to the surface as well as targets hidden in the deep.”
A team at the Wuhan Institute of Physics and Mathematics say they have devised a magnetic detection sensor that can fit into a capsule the size of a bean. “The device can pick up signals as weak as 20 femtotesla, or about one-fifth the strength of the magnetic field generated by a human brain,” explained the South China Morning Post.
“Although other devices known as magnetic anomaly detectors are much more sensitive, they are bulkier and can only be mounted on planes or helicopters,” the Post added. “Magnetic anomaly detectors used in anti-submarine warfare must operate at temperatures near absolute zero and require lasers, power supplies and gas chambers to achieve high sensitivity.”
In 2018, Chinese scientists said they were developing a laser-equipped satellite that could detect submarines. The idea is to use laser beams of various colors that can detect disturbances in the water caused by a moving submarine.
The question is what will make these devices successful when previous efforts have fizzled. For example, in 2010, DARPA's Deep Sea Operations program sought to develop blue-light lasers for undersea communications and hunting subs. The problem is that orbital laser beams can be affected by clouds, murky water and fish, as well as being scattered in the water.
The new blue-green lasers devised by the Shanghai team reportedly have been tested at lower altitudes, from aircraft flying between 1,500 and 3,000 feet. But aircraft-mounted lasers tend to be low-powered, so it remains to be seen whether the new lasers will be successful in locating deep-diving subs.
As for the Wuhan team’s new magnetic detection sensor, a bean-sized device far smaller than the magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) sensors flown by anti-submarine aircraft would seem to face limitations in power and range. Even some Chinese scientists contacted by the Post were dubious that the magnetic sensor could be useful without further development.
However, such a bite-sized device could be mounted in unmanned aircraft, raising the possibility of swarms of drones hunting subs. Of course, the U.S. is working on its own sub-hunting solutions, including a yacht-sized robot ship that tracks enemy vessels.

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China’s PLAN To Counter US Navy

In a possible conflict over Taiwan, the 14 SSNs the US currently operates, not all deployed in the region, would have to get closer to the Chinese coast to support their surface fleet and hunt for Chinese submarines. As they get closer to the Chinese coast, the PLAN’s numeric superiority in submarines will be an enormous challenge.

While the PLAN’s submarine fleet will pose a formidable threat to the US Navy, its troubles are far from over. In recent years, China has been investing significant resources in advanced underwater sensors, sonar, and anti-submarine lasers technology to better identify and target US submarines.
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China’s nuclear-powered Type 094A Jin-class ballistic missile submarine.
The result is a growing “transparency” in the seas surrounding China. China’s ability to detect American submarines at great distances is improving by the day. China has deployed underwater sensors that allow it to monitor US submarine activity as far as Guam.

Last year, a Chinese underwater drone was washed off the Indonesian island of Selayar close to Northern Australia.

Anti-submarine mines have also received substantial attention from the PLAN and underwater drones to attack American submarines are under development. While these underwater drones seem to be in a developmental stage, the fact that China now has one of the most advanced drone industries in the world should worry the US.

Some analysts have gone as far as predicting that in the next two decades, anti-submarine warfare will be so advanced as to make the submarine redundant. While this remains to be seen, it is certain that new technologies are making submarine operations far more dangerous.

A Chinese Navy submarine
A Chinese Navy submarine. (via Twitter)
With their limitless range, Australia’s planned 8 SSNs could reach the waters around Taiwan fast and substantially reinforce American submarine forces. Once they reach their objective, it remains to be seen how useful they will be. The PLAN doesn’t seem to have any desire to fight a midway-type battle in the high seas.
China plans to fight the US and its allies closer to its shore where it has deployed thousands of missiles, drones, hundreds of modern fighters, advanced air defense systems, and where the waters are becoming “transparently” deadly by the day.
 
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Liaoning and shandong are both handicapped by having no airborne radar, j15 jet with only 4000lbs payload and still no nuclear power. Its actually a liability to combat operations at sea.

Conventional power, the carrier cannot maintain 30knot speed and range.

J15 is total garbage. Have to choose between CAP, anti ship and strike role. And no AESA radar

Escort warships have to be burdened to protect j15s in the air which is the opposite of what should be. Less response time to to defend itself and the carrier. Who needs decoys when their j15s can take that role.

No airborne radar, means there is no radar coverage beyond horizon especially against sea skimming missiles or low alt attack aircraft. Radar waves don't bend to earth curvature. Now that is very dangerous, no strike group can react fast enough against 100 tomahawkVs, NSM or LRASM coming up on the horizon at only 20kms away

It's a cheap carrier, only a fraction of the price of an American one. And doing 30 kn is nice, but if escort ships can't keep up due to wave height, it makes little sense.
But they do have airborne radar lmao it's called the Z-18J, and soon the KJ-600. And where did you get super specific info about China's ACs ? Did the PLAN give you their specs? Please provide a source that isn't Indian bullshit media.

Z-18J:
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KJ-600:
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