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Hey guys, I posted pics of the new CFTs with integrated refuelling system, from the F16IN in the MMRCA thread ( http://www.defence.pk/forums/1030723-post2358.html ). If I'm not wrong these were the one that HAL co-developed and while looking at those pics, I asked myself if such a solution wouldn't be a good idea for LCA too?
LCA is very small and has only limited internal space for new systems, so wouldn't similar CFTs with integrated refueling system would be useful for LCA too, instead of integrating an refuelling system into the fighter itself? Carrying less external fuel tanks, makes stations free for more weapons and would reduce the RCS too, which are other additional advantages.
 
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Hey guys, I posted pics of the new CFTs with integrated refuelling system, from the F16IN in the MMRCA thread ( http://www.defence.pk/forums/1030723-post2358.html ). If I'm not wrong these were the one that HAL co-developed and while looking at those pics, I asked myself if such a solution wouldn't be a good idea for LCA too?
LCA is very small and has only limited internal space for new systems, so wouldn't similar CFTs with integrated refueling system would be useful for LCA too, instead of integrating an refuelling system into the fighter itself? Carrying less external fuel tanks, makes stations free for more weapons and would reduce the RCS too, which are other additional advantages.

Nice thought !! But doesnt this mean if we were to deattach CFT's then there would be no way refuel LCA in flight ?

Also in a fight the first thing a fighter pilot does is to dump the tanks -- how will this work with CFT (even if he can dumo fuel - the weight penalty will still be there) ? LCA as is under powered -- 414 would just about make it respectable !
 
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Ok guys , stop your horses

LCA will have IFR , but

ADA design has this in plan

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No CFT, No retractable probe . I know its good idea to have retractable but time being ......

We did similar treatment to Jaguar as well -

Closeup&
 
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Prateek - ^^ wont this contribute to RCS ? But i guess it really doesnt matter .
 
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why people dont design some thing that is retractable
 
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Nice thought !! But doesnt this mean if we were to deattach CFT's then there would be no way refuel LCA in flight ?

Also in a fight the first thing a fighter pilot does is to dump the tanks -- how will this work with CFT (even if he can dumo fuel - the weight penalty will still be there) ? LCA as is under powered -- 414 would just about make it respectable !

Yes, I guess the aim with the new CFTs at F16IN will be to use them all the time and jetison the other fuel tanks only.
They jetission the fuel tanks, to have less weight and more over less drag, that would be counterproductive in air combats right? But CFTs, directly attached to the airframe has less drag than fuel tanks fitted on the wings and according to this interesting article about F16 Sufas, also less weight:

...The bumps over the wing on both sides of the plane are conformal fuel tanks. Use of conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) extends the F-16's effective mission range/loiter time up to 50 percent, depending on the mission profile. CFTs can be used for both air-to-ground and air-to-air missions. They can be easily removed. They also increase weapon payloads by freeing-up additional store stations. The baseline F-16 has a combat radius of 740 nm (1,370 km) with two 2,000-lb bombs and two AIM-9, with 1,040 US gal external tanks.

The Block 52/60 F-16 aircraft procured by Israel, Greece and the UAE have structural, plumbing, and wiring provisions for the Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT). Attached to the upper surface of the F-16’s fuselage, the tank’s lower surface conform to the aircraft's shape. This arrangement allows the CFTs to be relatively light weight, since nothing is suspended from them. With an empty weight of 900 pounds, tank set holds 450 gallons (about 3,000 pounds) of additional JP-5/8 fuel. A CFT set carries 50 percent more fuel than the centerline external fuel tank, with only 12 percent of the drag. The CFT can dramatically increase the operational radius of the aircraft for long range missions. The aircraft can fly a long range strike mission with full weapon's load, and engage in air combat when external (370 Gal) fuel tanks have been dropped. The CFT, along with external 370 gallon jetissonable tanks or 600 gallon non-jetissonable external tanks are added with the CFT, provides the F-16 with a 60-70 percent increase in operational radius. At subsonic speeds the CFT have neglible effect on the aircraft agility, thought the drag increases in proportion to speed at supersonic speeds. The aircraft fitted with CFT retain nearly the full handling qualities, flight limits, and signature. The CFT set can be fitted or removed in less than two hours. The tanks are are built under the Peace Marble V program by IAI as a sole source to Lockheed Martin's specification.
Lockheed Martin began F-16 flight demonstration of an initial CFT shape in 1994 to investigate performance and handling quality characteristics. Subsequent wind tunnel testing led to the current external lines, which were initially validated in flight testing of high angle-of-attack handling characteristics at Edwards AFB, CA. Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company completed the first phase of flight testing of its new conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) for its F-16 multirole fighter in September 2001. Flight testing with aerodynamic shapes was conducted on an F-16C at Eglin Air Force Base, FL, from March through August. A total of 24 test flights and 65 flight test hours were accomplished, and testing involved loads, flutter, and stability and control...

F-16I Sufa (Storm)


I think that's why the US adds CFTs to any not stealth fighter now, F16 B52 onwards, F15 has them and will soon have the improved versions with integrated weapon bay and now even the F18SH seems to get them. Same from the European fighters, Rafale already has developed and tested, but not integrated them and the the EF might get them with the next upgrades too.

Regarding LCA beeing underpowered, imo with the latest weight reductions and EJ 200, or GE 414 engine, thrust is not the problem. The key will be the airflow through the air intakes, which many people thinks is the real problem at the moment. However, that's a different topic.



From the article:

“We will develop and design a retractable refueling probe,” Griffiths says. “LCA is a tightly packed aircraft ... Unfortunately, we’re later in the design period.

And that's exactly what I meant, it will be difficult to develop a retractable version with so less space in LCA, but integrated in CFTs would solve that problem.
 
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well after so much discussion the main point is ........ will there be cfts for lca mk2 ???
 
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History of Unmanned combat air vehicles can be traced back to 1960s when US developed unmanned Helicopters which were capable of launching Torpedoes were deployed in US Naval Destroyers, since then lot of new technological changes and development of Nano technology with small amount of success in Artificial intelligent have forced many in Aviation circle to think head of time, in fact F-35 fighter aircraft is already called Last Manned Fighter Aircraft to be inducted in US Forces.

Recently development of unmanned combat air vehicle based on Tejas combat aircraft has been a buzz in Indian media circle, DRDO wants to work on this concept 10 years down the line when R&D of Tejas MK-II is finished and it hits production. While the concept seems to be a really new and challenging but Defence forces around the world are not moving in that direction, Technology is not new and in past many fighter jets mostly for testing purpose have been  flown remotely. But mostly these manned fighters where never turned into unmanned fighter aircrafts in large numbers due to limitations which Aircraft designers have already put into the airframe while developing them keep humans in mind.

Countries like United States, Israel and many in Europe and Asia are developing Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (UCAV) based on Stealthier Airframe design and with high level of Artificial intelligence in them. Where these Combat air vehicles will be able to stay in air for longer time and complete their missions autonomously with little Human inputs. Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (UCAV) will have better weapons payload, better range and better maneuverability since Human physical limits will not be a factor in aircrafts airframe design.

DRDO lately started development of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) which will be used for Reconnaissance, Target accusations and for spying activity which mostly will be remotely piloted Drones, but if DRDO wants to work on Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (UCAV) 10 years down the line then they better shift their focus on new concept and design and work to develop a new Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (UCAV) completely from start and not be based on an existing manned fighter. R&D can be based on a Tejas platform but it cannot be considered as a UCAV platform itself. Russian Mig Corporation has been working on Mig-skat concept of their Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (UCAV) and china has already materialized some concepts of their UCAV which have been displayed in recently held Air shows in china.

DRDO and Indian Air force might have not Abandoned manned fighter aircrafts yet and are still going on and developing Manned 5th Generation fighter aircraft called AMCA but Indian air force can ill afford to ignore UCAV platforms for long time and small development on this concept should also initiated in India.
 
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well after so much discussion the main point is ........ will there be cfts for lca mk2 ???

It was never reported, I just aked about it, because the co-development between LM and HAL. As Prateek pointed out the early plans were about fixed refuelling probe, but now retractable seems to be on offer too, so anything is possible.
 
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Kaveri engine on path to become flight worthy
BY ADMIN AT 3 AUGUST, 2010, 1:46 AM

BY: IDRW NEWS NETWORK

Defence minister yesterday in parliament declared that GTRE has successfully carried out Altitude testing where Kaveri K-9 under belly of IL-76 aircraft carried out different engine performance simulation at various altitude and second part of testing will see that working engine from IL-76 will be replaced by Kaveri K-9 engine and this engine will actually power the aircraft .

Tests have been conducted currently at at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Russia, on a IL-76 Flying Test Bed (FTB) ,after this trials are successfully , GTRE will integrate the kaveri engine with a Tejas Air frame (Mostly likely PV-1) and plans to have its first test flight by end of 2010 or early 2011.
 
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Kaveri engine on path to become flight worthy
BY ADMIN AT 3 AUGUST, 2010, 1:46 AM
BY: IDRW NEWS NETWORK

Defence minister yesterday in parliament declared that GTRE has successfully carried out Altitude testing where Kaveri K-9 under belly of IL-76 aircraft carried out different engine performance simulation at various altitude and second part of testing will see that working engine from IL-76 will be replaced by Kaveri K-9 engine and this engine will actually power the aircraft .

Tests have been conducted currently at at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Russia, on a IL-76 Flying Test Bed (FTB) ,after this trials are successfully , GTRE will integrate the kaveri engine with a Tejas Air frame (Mostly likely PV-1) and plans to have its first test flight by end of 2010 or early 2011.

but wud it be of any use as it cannot provide the thrust IAF is asking for ...... also the new engine competition for tejas mk2 is also on.....
 
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but wud it be of any use as it cannot provide the thrust IAF is asking for ...... also the new engine competition for tejas mk2 is also on.....

It provides better thrust than 404 but less than 414 -- so there is some advantage --
 
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but wud it be of any use as it cannot provide the thrust IAF is asking for ...... also the new engine competition for tejas mk2 is also on.....

well atleast we can use it for advanced jet trainers in a worst case senario
 
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