HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore

[Secur]

In 2010 Feb PAF commissioned the 1st squadof JF 17. At that time there were 18 JF 17s in service .. From 2010 Feb to now is close to 4 years and its has taken that long to hit the 50 number (32 adds).. (Is the 3rd squad finally commissioned now? )

Contrary to popular belief , it all isn't coming from China in knockdown kits somehow , which I believe is the reason for delay since Kamra had been developing new facilities to produce the aircraft here ( 58% excluding the avionics percentage currently ) as of long along with funding issues . Yeah , done in December when the final aircraft ( the 50th one ) of the Block 1 was handed over to PAF , squadron commissioning hasn't happened as yet - not the official ceremony of course .

 

[sancho]

" if the aircraft is so great, why do the chinese not use it" ...

Because their low end fighter is and was always meant to be the J10! It gives PLAAF everything JF17 gives in operational terms and even more (common engines to their flankers, the better designs, better radar and avionics). So no matter how good JF 17 might be, it doesn't add to Chinas operational requirement and actually was always meant to be an export fighter development imo.
However, that doesn't degrade the fighter, just makes clear that PAF and PLAAF have different requirements. For PAF JF 17 is a true game changer! Not because it is a great fighter, but because it offers them the full range of operational roles, a good variety of weapons, netcentric operations with AWACS, extended endurance in air defence roles with mid air refuelling, stand off strike and SEAD capabilities (which poses the biggest threat to India), not to forget that they can customize the aircraft according to their requirements and don't have to fear spare shortages, restrictions or upgrade problems.
For Pakistan as a country it also adds huge advantages by improving their aero industry and if it gets exports, it even helps to earn benefits / return the investments.
And all that for very low unit costs! So the advantage the fighter and the project in general brings to Pakistan is undeniably big, eventhough that isn't necessarily the case for other countries, be it China or an potential export customer.
The fighter itself might not be that impressive as some make it, but the combination of a low cost fighter, with a good variety of weapons and strategic capabilities like Tankers and AWACS is surely a strong one.

 

[kingdurgaking]

Also China has the money to go for more expensive aircraft like J-10B so why they should they compromise on quality at all?

If you do not want to believe the logic then by all means, feel free to.

So you accept JF-17 is not having quality? or how do you define quality? more money more quality?? who told you this logic?? i guess no one will accept this argument

 

[karan.1970]

Contrary to popular belief , it all isn't coming from China in knockdown kits somehow , which I believe is the reason for delay since Kamra had been developing new facilities to produce the aircraft here ( 58% excluding the avionics percentage currently ) as of long along with funding issues . Yeah , done in December when the final aircraft ( the 50th one ) of the Block 1 was handed over to PAF , squadron commissioning hasn't happened as yet - not the official ceremony of course .

Thx.. if i am correct 58% of the airframe is not manufactured in Pakistan.

So as I said, 32 odd planes in 46 months.. Hope I was able to clarify the figure I quoted

 

[Secur]

Thx.. if i am correct 58% of the airframe is not manufactured in Pakistan.

So as I said, 32 odd planes in 46 months.. Hope I was able to clarify the figure I quoted

Jan 1/09: Associated Press of Pakistan quotes

Air Marshal Chadhry reportedly said that PAC has the capability to manufacture 75% of the JF-17′s avionics, and 58% of its air frame.

The Pakistani security apparatus and allied engineers not only produced the JF-17 Thunder prototype in a record period of two-and-a-half years as against a period of 8-9 years taken in the advanced world on the first model of a combat aircraft, they have also taken the Pakistani contribution in the avionics’ preparation to the optimum level of 70 per cent of the Pak-China joint endeavour and to a satisfactory figure of 58 per cent in the preparation of other essential components.

JF-17 production with China’s support - thenews.com.pk

No , wrong again , the first squadron had an initial strength of 14 aircraft at the time of commissioning . So that means 36 aircraft in 46 months after the first one . That is more than fine speed considering that its the first time , the country has undertook any such project , obviously the establishment of infrastructure for that takes time .

 

[Superboy]

Lockheed's F16 test bed had DSI in the mid-90's. Nice try though.

So? F-16 has never been upgraded with DSI.

BTW, F-16 is not a light fighter. It's a middle weight fighter in the class of J-10. F-20 was a light fighter with a small F404 engine in the class of JF-17.

 

[h0mer]

So? F-16 has never been upgraded with DSI.

Sure it has. Can't see the picture? Here it is again just for good measure. (added a caption at the bottom of the picture too, just in case the picture didn't speak for itself)

^^ F-16 upgraded with DSI.

BTW, F-16 is not light weight. It's a middle weight fighter in the class of J-10. F-20 was a light fighter with a small F404 engine in the class of JF-17.

Not sure what this has to do with the DSI argument... so who cares?

 

[Superboy]

Sure it has. Can't see the picture? Here it is again just for good measure. (added a caption at the bottom of the picture too, just in case the picture didn't speak for itself)

^^ F-16 upgraded with DSI.

Not a production plane. Does not count.

 

[Superboy]

26 million is the initial estimated price. It could rise later on as in the case of F-22, F-35.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Not a production plane. Does not count.

So what anything special done by DSI? dose DSI make invincible?

 

[h0mer]

Not a production plane. Does not count.

You said that the Chinese were the first to implement DSI technology... I just proved it wrong. Lockheed invented it and implemented it (first).

So what anything special done by DSI? dose DSI make invincible?

Very little if nothing at all.

 

[Superboy]

You said that the Chinese were the first to implement DSI technology... I just proved it wrong. Lockheed invented it and implemented it (first).

What American fighter plane has DSI that's operational? JF-17 has been operational for nearly 4 years already.

So what anything special done by DSI? dose DSI make invincible?

DSI is mainly for aesthetics. Practical reasons include weight reduction, ease of construction, ease of maintenance, reduction of frontal RCS, improved aerodynamics.

 

[h0mer]

What American fighter plane has DSI that's operational? JF-17 has been operational for nearly 4 years already.

that's not the argument bud... you said Chinese implemented it first.. I just proved to you they did not. What does it have to do with production vehicles? Lockheed invented it, designed it, and implemented it. Chinese... copied it.

And for the record, DSI gives you very little improvements at subsonic speeds. At supersonic speeds, it provides zero enhancements to the flight envelope.

 

[AUz]

Auz.

I am sure the JF17 is a brilliant plane for PAF and its combat doctrine for next 30 years.

Yes, it turned out to be a vastly superior plane than PAF anticipated PAF officials have confirmed this during many interviews and presentations to media, and potential buys in air shows..etc.

Its great it defeats the F16 as you say and obviously now you wont need more F16s in the future has they are sanctioned threatened anyway.

No, most latest versions of F-16s, block 52 and block 60, are still superior to JF-17 block I ...I was talking about earlier versions of F-16s...But JF-17 is just in its inception as a project....

From my point of veiw there are some obvious weaknesses that could have made this even better

1. I would have built thunder with a fully unstable FCS because it dramatically increases agility with full quadruplex FBW system. ie gripen typhoon rafale and Tejas lca.

Well, unstable FCS has advantages and disadvantages too...and Chinese FBW technology isn't as mature as Western one..so a safe way was to have a mix of conventional and FBW systems...

Again, PAF's main motive for JF-17 was "cost-effective air power" ...

JF-17 is remarkably agile already...according to one F-16 pilot who flew it, JF-17 actually outperforms F-16 during "sustained" tight turns, as it doesn't lose any height but F-16 does a little..

So on agility part, it is already very agile as you can see from air shows.

2. Far more compsites less RCS and improved strength. just like the planes above

JF-17 already has composites on important areas of plane...and its RCS is very low too..lower than 5m^2..know one knows the exact value though...one thing you must keep in mind..JF-17 is a shorter plane than F-16, and F-16 has a pretty damn good RCS..so JF-17's is even lower..

More composites are being added to block-II though...

3. Euro/western engines as the russian engines though powerful have less flyimg life and carry more maintenance .personally the rolls royce engines ej200 OR frances snemca would be brilliant .

I know. But Western engines are sanction-prone and highly unreliable since you never know when uncle sam gets mad and fucks you up.

Russian RD-93 is an upgrade of engine used in Mig-29s...and it is a decent engine..also, there is no fear of sanctions as Russia already has supplied 100 engines to JF-17 program under a contract with the Chinese.

The real engine in JF-17 would be WS-13A....

4. Ability to use western weapons & not just chinease weapons.ie amraam mica and derby python etc.

JF-17 uses indigenous software so we can integrated any weapon system we want...With Western weapon systems, again, first they probably would not have given us source code, secondly, PAF doesn't want to be too dependent on west since sanctions are always a looming threat...

Chinese weapon systems are pretty damn good too...For example, we have an officer's testimony who was at SD-10's integration and testing trials in China..and he was "surprised" to see how well Chinese have got with their BVRs...he didn't expect it..and remember, PAF is a user of AMRAAM-120C, one of the best BVR ever made, so when PAF gets "surprised" by the performance of SD-10...it means that the missile is right up there with the best systems available..PAF got SD-10A, a even more sophisticated version of SD-10 specifically designed for PAF with inputs of PAF officers, technicians, pilots, engineers etc. (Again, we are a user of AIM-120C ...) SD-10A's exceeds SD-10 in performance...

i honestly believe a bigger western content of more variety will lead to more sales eventually for block 2 and 3.

Yes, but PAF specially designed JF-17 to get rid of West and the threat of sanctions...

In next say 20 years, Chinese will get right up there with Western world...since they are putting hundreds of billions of dollars in R&D and technological industrial base...

By that time, PAF will have a very good grip on chinese systems and working with the Chinese systems...so then, we'll be able to absorb newer chinese technologies with ease...

JF-17 Thunder is a massive step for PAF towards future air power...

Hey Sancho man, how credible these starts are? If you go to HAL website, they say Tejas payload to be 5.3 ton :/

Can you confirm the credibility of this chart?

 

[Superboy]

So what anything special done by DSI? dose DSI make invincible?

that's not the argument bud... you said Chinese implemented it first.. I just proved to you they did not. What does it have to do with production vehicles? Lockheed invented it, designed it, and implemented it. Chinese... copied it.

And for the record, DSI gives you very little improvements at subsonic speeds. At supersonic speeds, it provides zero enhancements to the flight envelope.

China implemented DSI before anyone else did. JF-17 is the world's first operational DSI plane.