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HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore

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Which sounds a bit like a tiger being "allowed to leave" by a lamb, with the lamb thinking he is so tough because he scared the tiger off!
PAF versus IAF is no longer even a contest, it's more a question of IAF fighting off potential PLAAF attacks while destroying the PAF as an afterthought.
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1) Either you have no idea what you are talking about or you are quite gullible.
2) Oh, is it? That explains why there are so many airbases on the Western Border. However, I am glad to see you complacent, it will be your nation's down fall.

Somewhat true. Joe sir is not posting anymore.

Where is he?


No idea but I really miss the man!

Mein bhiii nahin ? :cray:
Oh yaar you are from my time. A relic which has lost its luster but is worth more than the shiny newbies.
 
Oh yaar you are from my time. A relic which has lost its luster but is worth more than the shiny newbies.

I miss the old days too - Some of the discussions used to be quite a bit more than the odd South Asian d*ck measuring contest ! :(

But the good news is that @blain2 is back & @jhungary is an ex-US serviceman & he writes some great stuff ! :)
 
Ok lets take discussion to a logical level... I see both arguments are fine.. one with 800 LCA against 657 Mig 21... you need to see why we went for such a huge fighters.. why didnt we purchase Mig-29 or Mirage for higher numbers when we initially brought?? try to find answer you will understand the same...

All that is irrelevant.

LCA because it is INDIGENOUS. That is the only reason to patronize this aircraft. Compensate for its short range by MKI's and S2A and S2S missiles. Work around its weakness with other indigenous elements like AEW&CS & refuelers. All Indigenous and value for money. Not to mention vitalizing the economy and assist building a military industrial complex which is sanction proof. Furthering R&D in India and building a native network of relevant experts. Involving our educational institutions and civilian industrial complex in military matters.

I am not claiming that it will be as good as having the Rafale. I am claiming it will give us credible defense and attack ability with the added benefit of the economy and Military complex.

The best option which any air-force finds now is a mix of high medium low... This is how we can maintain operational cost.. LCA will fit the bill in many places.. it can perform 3-4 sorties which is a greater achievement.. If range is increased considerably it is going to wreck havoc.. adding further hard points (which IAF has ignored cooly only because of Medium fighters in place).. There are some places where Rafale will fit the bill ...

There is already a AMCA in the pipeline as well as a PAKFA. We are looking at a period of the next 10 years. LCA and MKI can pick up the role. A Fleet of mobile S2S missiles is what can compensate for lack of deep strike aircrafts. Add to that capability to launch Satellite on demand. (maybe using Agni V).
 
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Its still funny indians claim it as their indigenous project......it was more foreign systems on board then JFT's
well, the Su-30 has more Indian systems than the JF-17, so...
There is more to just components, such as developing the airframe, developing the design and systems, flight testing. Not that you would know, as Pakistan did none of these while "developing" the JF-17
 
Those Aircrafts were Su-30MKI (FULLY-LOADED) and Mirage 2000-9s etc...PAF's F-16s and F-7Ps took to the skies to defend our airspace..The incusions happened in two sectors...Lahore and Azad Kashmir..


There were never any M2k-9s in IAF inventory. We still do not have them. Either a typo or a misquote or a spurious source from your side.
 
There were never any M2k-9s in IAF inventory. We still do not have them. Either a typo or a misquote or a spurious source from your side.

You shouldn't expect factual accuracy in his personal fantasies / brain farts / wet dreams.
 
LCA is a lost project against JF-17 Thunder now.

Massive hurdles and put offs in the LCA project has inflated his price..and thats very normal.

JF-17 block II with Inflight refueling, and superior integrated and improved avionics will still cost less than LCA block 1...

If JF-17 is such a great aircraft then why do the chinese refuse to use it themselves?
 

1) Either you have no idea what you are talking about or you are quite gullible.
.[/quote]

Well, you should try going to some other forum and suggesting that antique F-16s and F-7s "scared away" Sukoi-30s. Go on.

The only reason IAF is going for the Rafale and so many Su-30 is because of PLAAF, and their massive flanker fleet (genuine and pirated). 80 Su-30 would be enough to do to PAF what Israel did to the Syrians in the bekaa valley or what the coalition did to Iraq. So far outclasses the PAF high end F-16s (leave alone the obsolete Chinese J-7 and JF-17s) it's like asking WW2 Spitfires to fight against Mig-21s.
 
Anyway it's always been next to impossible to truly compare systems like fighters on a fair and objective basis and in the case of the LCA vs JF-17 it is near impossible to truly see how these 2 fighters stack up.

Well, its not impossible to stack these fighters up.. what is impossible is objectivity in doing so. An Indian cannot accept that the Tejas is lacking is some sphere while the Pakistani will refuse to accept ridiculous comments on the JF-17. Perhaps someone who has had a chance to look at both fighters up close and know them(say a aviation reporter) could offer the best comments. Ive only seen the former up close and gained an inkling to what its capable of .. so my comments can only be as accurate as I know. On the other hand, there is little in terms of publications on the JF-17 due to primarily piss poor digital marketing and rather abstruse ideals of the Pakistani military in information dissemination.

You stack the F-15 and Su-27 up.. you do the same with the mig-29 and F-16. Unless you have someone who's had say five flights in similarly configured, similar generation(F-16A, Mig-29A.. or F-16-52, Mig-29SM etc) .. you cannot guarantee objectivity by one person. You need to have multiple accounts, through reliable researched sources and not every other blog writing halfwit who was logistic branch of the Army and decides to comment on mountain warfare as if he is the authority on the subject.
Similarly.. ask an American pilot what he thinks of the Mig-29 vs F-16.. and he will tell you that his F-16 cant be beaten. The Rafale M did a tour on the US carrier.. and American pilots were asked of it.. they praised it..but when it came to asking about trading the fighter.. they refused.."I love my superhornet wayy too much". Debate .. me , @sancho ,@sandy_3126 try to do(i sincerely hope so :p:) on an objective level and that of mutual trust.. i.e. I trust what they are saying is taken as true to the best of their knowledge.. and hope the same from me. But that is important for objective discussion.. if that is there, then you dont need links, sources or news or copy paste blogs to ruin a discussion.

If JF-17 is such a great aircraft then why do the chinese refuse to use it themselves?

Why is India only purchasing 200 Tejas? Why not the whole fleet? why Buy MKIs or Rafales? Give me an educated answer to that and not a jingoistic one.
 
@Capt.Popeye @Manticore @sancho > Kindly tell why the difference between *(stated) combat radius is so huge.
Combat radius is a related measure based on the maximum distance a warplane can travel from its base of operations, accomplish some objective, and return to its original airfield with minimal reserves. That means combat radius depends on the objective... There is no standard value of combat radius... Combat radius will change according to different combat or fighting (ie.mission,fuel,load,altitude etc)... Here just know two figures... So can't compare this...
Ferry range comparison is more sensible... Ferry range means the maximum range the aircraft can fly. This usually means maximum fuel load, optionally with extra fuel tanks and minimum equipment.
Ferry range of JF17=1880Nm=3482km( may be with 3 drop tans because of low internal fuel){ some sources including JF17 website showing only ferry range 2,037 km (1,266 miles)}
Ferry range of LCA=3000km{ some sources saying only 1700km including Press Info Beuro,GOI}[testing mostly done with two 800l drop tanks]...

Both have almost same range... Also Tejas can carry ONE TON extra fuel... How????
According to IDEAS 2012 JF17 spec,,,,
Empty weight= 6,586 kg (14,520 lb),Max. takeoff weight: 12,383kg (27,300 lb), Max payload=3580kg(7900lbs)....
So fuel~~12383-(6586+3580)= 2217L(kg~l)
According to ADA lca Final brochure.....
Empty=6560kg,Max take off=13500kg, External payload=3500-3700kg...
So fuel~~13500-(6560+3500)=3440L

That is 3440-2217~~1200L extra.......

Same empty wt but one ton extra max take off wt.. with almost same power engine... Now say which airframe is advanced?????
 
It's funny to see Indians going over board with LCAs price and comparing it to Rafales or M-MRCAs, although the LCA MK1 can't meet core IAF requirements of the M-MRCA competitions like the 9G limit, or a TWR of 1 or better. It has just passed the ICO 2 requirements, which means the MINIMUM requirements to be inducted into IAF service, but doesn't mean that it would be even close to the flight and A2A combat performance of the upgrade Mig 29 or Mirage 2000, let alone the top level of MKI and Rafale. So guys stop these nonsens calculations about "we can get ... LCA MK1s for the money we spend on Rafale, ignoring every bit of logical sense, or even requirements of MoD and IAF of the M-MRCA competition (ToT, offsets, industrial improvement, fully fledged medium class multi role combat capability...)!!!

What does the price really mean? That even after all the delays and cost-overruns, the price of the fighter is still around the $20 million unit cost that was aimed for it initially. So that is one thing we should be happy about, that it didn't cost us too much apart from many years delays.However, the figure alone doesn't tell us anything about LCA's real performance, about it's technical capabilities and that are the real points that sets the fighters apart and not the cost of a light class fighter. It doesn't tell us about the radar cone, the drag, or the speed issues, or the fact that we still speculate only what the radar of the MK1 or even the early MK2s will be and what performance they have.
The 300Km combat range is also a figure that is given on very old specboards, but neither says anything about the profile and the loads related to the figure, nor what combat range the version now has, that was cleared through the IOC 2.
In comparison to the JF 17...

...we know that both currently have pretty similar empty weight and internal fuel capacities
...that both have 3 x wet stations to carry similar sized fuel tanks
...that both have can carry only 4 x AAMs with all wet stations loaded
.
So does anybody really believe that JF 17 could have X times longer combat radius than LCA with the same load, although their base specs are so similar in this role? Also don't forget that increased internal fuel capacity was not a requirement of IAF for the MK2 varient, but from IN since N-LCA needs more for carrier operations and ski-jump take off. That again shows, that range actually isn't an issue and when you look up official statements, there were no complains about the range at all. So this whole issue seems to be more one for discussions on forums, rather than a real problem for the fighter or the forces that want to use it.

So paper specs, or price figures alone doesn't make LCA worse, or better than it is, but of course there will be always those that try to critize it, just like there will be those that overhype it, just to fight about it. :pop:
 
Debate .. me , @sancho ,@sandy_3126 try to do(i sincerely hope so :p:) on an objective level and that of mutual trust.. i.e. I trust what they are saying is taken as true to the best of their knowledge.. and hope the same from me. But that is important for objective discussion.. if that is there, then you dont need links, sources or news or copy paste blogs to ruin a discussion.

Discussing the merits of of both fighters would be interesting, but we all know that this is a sensible issue here and that there will be many people that will intervene, with broad opinions, rather than facts and it ends up with talking about terms (indigenous), the numbers of fighters that are operational, while the other side argues also about for foreign content of production and R&D.
I've said it before, we often want to see the differences and downsides of both fighters, rather than see the similarities of both programs in general and the benefits they bring to both aero industries, just we want to see the differences and problems of both countries, not the similarities and benefits both could have. It's the same old India vs Pakistan issue projected on 2 fighters.
 
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Dumbass reporters peddling stories with half truths.

India to Buy $3 Bln Worth of Russian Warplanes, Helicopters | Business | RIA Novosti
$38 million dollars average price.


Nothing comes close to the outrageous french(or rather european) prices.
Why is India only purchasing 200 Tejas? Why not the whole fleet? why Buy MKIs or Rafales? Give me an educated answer to that and not a jingoistic one.
The LCA has come too late in the day is the simple answer. There is no longer any need for more than say 200-300 LCAs in IAF service as they have already plunged resources and time into acquiring large fleets of the MKI and Rafale not to mention the FGFA. That is not to say the MKIs or Rafales are taking many orders away from the LCA but it can't be disputed that the MKI has replaced the MIG-21 in certain SQDs as will the Rafale and the LCA was meant to be the IAF's replacement to the MIG-21. Having said that the blame for this shouldn't be shouldered by the LCA alone but the MoD, GoI and IAF can all take some blame for various reasons.
 
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