HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore

[Manvantaratruti]

No, you might be more knowledgeable or even smarter than the senior members here but the difference is that, senior members are more experienced and have not just increased their posts with ultra modern B.S but in a very respectable manner by cautiously researching on matters and arguably milking the facts from even more senior guys in the forum.

You have a long way to go before you understand me, for I was no different than you are.

May pdf give you the recognition your crave. All the best.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Some folks are so intelligent and knowledgeable that they talk all sense and troll very hard... even to the extent that they wud like to have LCA close 1000 in numbers in place of rafale.. some are out to prove Jf 17 to be the very best.. some would say LCA is not upto mark with fighting range,, some say Rafale TOT is nothing other than spares in times of sanction


SMH ...

Are ppl talking any sense? does the great person realise 800 LCAs means what kind of infrastructure and kind of pilot training and operational cost.. if HAL makes exceptional effort and produces 16 birds a year do u mean to say with continuous upgrades we shud produce LCAs for next 800/16= 50 years of pure manufacturing and then mid life upgrades.. and then talk abt the logic of having great numbers do the job for us... what kind of lunatic argument is that??


The Rafale offset program is only for one gud reason.. Like in the case of Su 30 MKI it lead to certain companies in India to cater to Defense needs or specifically to HAL , Last time the units which came up to help MKI were limited in number as our aerospace and aircraft manufacturing units just started.. We are expecting that using private sectors participation along with HAL for say 108 and later rumoured 63 follow on addition would lead to a bit of maturity in our aircraft manufacturing industry with wider participation in supply chain to HAL, new expertise, induction of more complex machinery and introduction of high technology in that sector..
HOw it benefits?? the LCA/AMCA program also needs the industry.. so the more offset is there from say Rafale or PAK FA the better it is for manufacturing of sophisticated technology..


JF17 as far as i understand after talking with few informed sources.. the high range available in the public domain are with only drop tanks and limited armaments.. the fact of the matter is when an engagement with enemy occurs, the engine efficiency is not so gud as compared to say US/Western engines.. implying to maintain high performance and opening of throttle will bring down the effective range.. to make it more maneuverable, a better pilot would drop tanks also to ensure some advantage over dog fights.. so the whole concept of range is flawed.. LCA what i had discussed with my own friend who is in the main team of HAL and is closely associated with the LCA project is clear that the so called battle range of 500 kms as declared by Government of India is considering all these factors of dogfight, limited fuel and armaments for engagement.. if we follow the JF17 model of putting the fuel tanks and only A2A limited armaments then the range so called moves closer to 1000-1100 kms.. But he is clear that it is meaningless as when they submitted to IAF that figure, one senior person in IAF simply asked "do u want me to fly this with only fuels and limited weaponery.. my pilots wud drop the tank at the very first instance to increase its mobility and take on the enemy fighter.. dont give me those figures.. tell em the one with which my pilots can plan their engagement and sortie details" . Thus the argument is meaningless..


Lastly i would state that lets have a healthy debate.. the harshness in language is meaningless... we all can be keyboard warriors but its of no use..

BTW to our chinese members

This screenshot of the presentation slide, used by HAL's Chairman, during his talk at the Aero India 2013 International Seminar shows some of the critical technologies & sub-systems for which India is negotiating with France to be included as part of its rafale acquisition

In its mind, India would want France to hand over all the technologies used, with no restrictions on where it applies them subsequently.
Realistically, it would start off with a position, whereby some hardware sub-systems could come directly from France, some that would be assembled in the country, sourcing the components & raw materials from original vendors, while some in which France would have to part with sufficient information for India to be in a position to make those components/sub-systems completely independent of French involvement, save for its certification - ToT. The HAL GAP identification process was towards this only

This position would be challenged by the French who'd be willing to offer less, asking for more. This back and forth would continue till they reach a mutually agreeable position, upon which the contract would be signed. Thus we must await for fine print to ascertain the real deal modalities

Even after receiving the ToT, contractual obligation would dictate whether the same tech or manufacturing process could be applied in other projects - the case in point being the ToT received for growing Single Crystal Blades used in the twin AL-31FP Turbofan engines powering the IAF's Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs. While SCBs are being made for the Flanker engines, the Kaveri has not been able to reap the benefits.

With respect to the MMRCA contract too, as understood from the HAL Chairman's response to a query during that Aero India, he does not seem very hopeful about France permitting spin-off use of any ToT for other Indian projects - contractual agreement is yet to be signed. (read kaveri engine wont benefit right away uptill Snecma is also made a joint partner)

Whatever may be the case, the fact remains that MMRCA agreement would bring in technologies and capabilities, however may its extent, that are currently absent within the country.

 

[AMCA]

May pdf give you the recognition your crave. All the best.

Thank you, and may the PDF bless you to witness it.

 

[AUz]

My lord

Can you provide a source for this claim of yours ???

What source?

Don't you remember when indian aircrafts crossed into Pakistani borders after 2008 incident?

Those Aircrafts were Su-30MKI (FULLY-LOADED) and Mirage 2000-9s etc...PAF's F-16s and F-7Ps took to the skies to defend our airspace..The incusions happened in two sectors...Lahore and Azad Kashmir..

Over Lahore sector, Pakistani Aircrafts got a solid "lock" on an indian Su-30MKI...

Some senior members here, who are "professionals" with links inside military, have even seen the video recorded by PAF fighter's cam...with Su-30MKI firmly "locked" in PAF's F-16's target sight...and "beeeepppppppp" of lock can be heard too...lol

Su-30MKI was later "allowed to leave" Pakistani Airspace while being "locked" by F-16s all the way to border

indian senior members here have also confirmed this...but according to their version, Su-30MKIs had high-tech equipment on board and they "wanted" to get locked by PAF to see what kind of radars PAF was using, to pick up electrical signals etc, and how alert PAF was (reaction time to interception etc)...

All that detail you won't find in newspaper...only thing you'll find is that indian fighters entered Pakistani Airspace but were forced to leave once PAF arrived...but what happened that night was a bit more interesting than that.

According to some newspaper reports, Later, General Kiyani showed the picture of indian aircraft in PAF's "lock" to General Mike Mullen, and remarked "Next time, we'll bring it down" to send clear message to indians not to enter Pak''s airspace again....which they "obeyed" I'm not sure how authentic this is though...Ask any senior member to confirm if it actually happened..The Mullen episode that is...but indians getting locked by PAF over Lahore sector is a confirmed deal...

And remember, this was the time when we had no latest F-16s and 0 JF-17..

Now, we have one of THE most sophisticated and high-tech fighter aircrafts, F-16 block 52+, along with 50+ BVR loaded JF-17 Thunders..backed by AWACS and ECM Aircrafts, integrated in 100% network-centric war-time central command..something indians lag behind us as of now.

Breaking through Pakistan's Air Defenses would be an uphill marathon task for iaf!

 

[Ping]

^ yea, it's true. I also heard that those F-16 pilots were having butter-popcorn while they did that, which was shown by Kiyani to mullen who was taken aback by such cool bad-assery. All the while hacking into the Airtel network and using our own mobile towers to download bollywood songs illegally. Such an awesome aircraft F-16 is.

 

[Abingdonboy]

WOW. 26 million $ for a LCA !

It can fly further than the Mirage 2000 and carry slightly lesser load. But we pay 2.4 billion $ just to upgrade the 48 Mirage @ 45 million $ per upgrade to make it as powerful as LCA.

2.4 billion $ would get us 92 Brand new LCA in addition to the older 48 Mirage 2000

15 billion will get us 575 LCA as opposed to the 126 Rafale

The actual Rafale deal will cost us anything between 20-25 Billion $ which can actually buy us between 770 - 960 LCA's

If we pitch 126 Rafale against 800 LCA who would win the battle ?

Now calm yourself. You're not AT ALL comparing apples with apples. To compare the LCA, the Mk.1 at that, to the Rafale is quite frankly absurd.

Okay LCA being 26 Millions a piece is good but it is going to have consequences for Rafale which stands at 84 millions a piece. MMRCA needs to win a debate for the price and benefits it offers VS Proposed MCA, its cost and its benefits. The only possible point which goes in the favour of Rafale is its delivery time-frame or diversity of hardware. Price wise, it will receive rightful criticism.

Nope, like I've said, you cannot compare the LCA to the Rafale- it's silly to do so.

 

[Jayanta]

What source?

Don't you remember when indian aircrafts crossed into Pakistani borders after 2008 incident?

Those Aircrafts were Su-30MKI (FULLY-LOADED) and Mirage 2000-9s etc...PAF's F-16s and F-7Ps took to the skies to defend our airspace..The incusions happened in two sectors...Lahore and Azad Kashmir..

Over Lahore sector, Pakistani Aircrafts got a solid "lock" on an indian Su-30MKI...

Some senior members here, who are "professionals" with links inside military, have even seen the video recorded by PAF fighter's cam...with Su-30MKI firmly "locked" in PAF's F-16's target sight...and "beeeepppppppp" of lock can be heard too...lol

Su-30MKI was later "allowed to leave" Pakistani Airspace while being "locked" by F-16s all the way to border

indian senior members here have also confirmed this...but according to their version, Su-30MKIs had high-tech equipment on board and they "wanted" to get locked by PAF to see what kind of radars PAF was using, to pick up electrical signals etc, and how alert PAF was (reaction time to interception etc)...

All that detail you won't find in newspaper...only thing you'll find is that indian fighters entered Pakistani Airspace but were forced to leave once PAF arrived...but what happened that night was a bit more interesting than that.

According to some newspaper reports, Later, General Kiyani showed the picture of indian aircraft in PAF's "lock" to General Mike Mullen, and remarked "Next time, we'll bring it down" to send clear message to indians not to enter Pak''s airspace again....which they "obeyed" I'm not sure how authentic this is though...Ask any senior member to confirm if it actually happened..The Mullen episode that is...but indians getting locked by PAF over Lahore sector is a confirmed deal...

And remember, this was the time when we had no latest F-16s and 0 JF-17..

Now, we have one of THE most sophisticated and high-tech fighter aircrafts, F-16 block 52+, along with 50+ BVR loaded JF-17 Thunders..backed by AWACS and ECM Aircrafts, integrated in 100% network-centric war-time central command..something indians lag behind us as of now.

Breaking through Pakistan's Air Defenses would be an uphill marathon task for iaf!

You should take up script writing for Lollywood movies....was a nice story may turn up to be a block bluster.

 

[Abingdonboy]

But he is clear that it is meaningless as when they submitted to IAF that figure, one senior person in IAF simply asked "do u want me to fly this with only fuels and limited weaponery.. my pilots wud drop the tank at the very first instance to increase its mobility and take on the enemy fighter.. dont give me those figures.. tell em the one with which my pilots can plan their engagement and sortie details" . Thus the argument is meaningless..

Well this is common practice in dog-fights, to drop the tanks and engage. Obviously this range issue depends on the mission at hand. If you're looking to do a deep-strike mission then you can fuel up the LCA and stick on a drop tanks HOWEVER this is NOT what the LCA is intended for in the IAF- they have the MKI and Rafale for this. The LCA will be used as a very effective point-defence fighter/interceptor as the MIG-21s have been used as for some time. As such the IAF brass's comments make sense in this light because here performance in a2a missions with minimal fuel is more relevant to how the IAF envisages using the LCA. Having said that the MK.2 will come with more internal fuel capacity and an IFR probe.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

the above post #154 of IAF being locked in PAF is being said as if we don have anything and IAF is having only paper planes... SMH again... we had the audacity to at least enter ur airspace to check ur responsiveness... even now when from ur airbases a single flight takes off, 2 of our frontier flights remain ready to take u on..

Have a look at what happened in kargil

In the report “Airpower at 18,000 feet: IAF in the Kargil War” published by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in 2012, Benjamin Lambeth explains in detail how the IAF ground down both the Pakistan Army and the PAF: “Throughout the campaign, whenever IAF reconnaissance or ground attack operations were under way in the immediate combat zone, Western Air Command ensured that MiG-29s or other air-to-air fighters were also airborne on combat air patrol stations over the ground fighting on India’s side of the LoC to provide top cover against any attempt by the PAF to enter the fray in a ground attack role. PAF F-16s to the west typically maintained a safe distance of 10 to 20 miles on the Pakistani side of the LoC, although they occasionally approached as close as 8 miles away from the ongoing ground engagements.”

Lambeth quotes Air Marshal (retired) Vinod Patney, the then head of Western Air Command: “I think my insistence to mount CAPs across the (command’s entire area of responsibility) at different heights and times to give the message that I was ready and angling for an enlarged conflict helped. It was akin to throwing a glove, but it was not picked up.”

Although IAF fighters never joined in aerial combat with the PAF F-16s due to the Atal Bihari Vajpayee government’s strict injunction that Indian forces not cross the LoC, years later IAF chief Anil Tipnis recalled he had “personally authorised his escorting fighter pilots to chase any Pakistani aircraft back across the LoC in hot pursuit were those pilots to be engaged by enemy fighters in aerial combat”.
============================================

Over the years, IAF had learned to get On the job response time to fine tune the strategies.. That is the only reason that PAK government declared the use of NASR as a low grade nuclear attack capable missile to stop IA tank regiments as they always know even with max latest birds, PAF cannot take on IAF in case they decide to start an engagement..The cold start doctrine was our way to see in what way Pakistan would respond and we were correct when the talks of Nasr and nuclear strike on regiments of IA to stop its advancement came to light... . BTW the IA top brass had already began moving to a second plan of cold start.. the two front war exercise was part of that new strategy.. implying its already evolving its strategy of Nasr firing and may be help from a friendly country of Pakistan..

enuff said already so implying all the lock on things are much more normal then so called claims of superiority and smack talks..

 

[Icarus]

Well this is common practice in dog-fights, to drop the tanks and engage. Obviously this range issue depends on the mission at hand. If you're looking to do a deep-strike mission then you can fuel up the LCA and stick on a drop tanks HOWEVER this is NOT what the LCA is intended for in the IAF- they have the MKI and Rafale for this. The LCA will be used as a very effective point-defence fighter/interceptor as the MIG-21s have been used as for some time. As such the IAF brass's comments make sense in this light because here performance in a2a missions with minimal fuel is more relevant to how the IAF envisages using the LCA. Having said that the MK.2 will come with more internal fuel capacity and an IFR probe.

Mk.1 is still a pre-induction phase plane, talking about the Mk.II is not the wisest option at the time. The adoption of the Mk.II depends on how successful the Mk.I is. A case in point would be the Arjun MBT. There was a future planned for that tank and there were discussions of an entire range of armoured vehicles however, post adoption the IA decided they were getting more bang for buck from the Russian Tanks and the adoption of the T-90 lead the Arjun in a position where it was no longer required. So for now, lets stick to the merits and demerits of the Mk.I alone.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Mk.1 is still a pre-induction phase plane, talking about the Mk.II is not the wisest option at the time. The adoption of the Mk.II depends on how successful the Mk.I is. A case in point would be the Arjun MBT. There was a future planned for that tank and there were discussions of an entire range of armoured vehicles however, post adoption the IA decided they were getting more bang for buck from the Russian Tanks and the adoption of the T-90 lead the Arjun in a position where it was no longer required. So for now, lets stick to the merits and demerits of the Mk.I alone.

Well work on the MK.2 has already begun and its first flight will be in the next 18 months.

Secondly your point about the Arjun is entirely moot. An entire family based on the Arjun IS being developed- a BLT and recovery variant are almost ready for delivery. The Arjun MK.2 is already under trails with 248 of these having been ordered, there is a high chance more will be used and then the Mk.3 is looking increasingly likely to be a replacement to the IA's FMBT plans.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

i can second that what abingdonboy said above #161 as in IA there were initial discussion to join the next gen tank program of Russia which uses a single platform for different purposes.. But most folks within IA feels that Arjun family can automatically cater to that.. so there is no need to go and look abroad.. BTW IA had demanded so many things from Arjun tanks only for making it the mainstay in future bcz of this plan of using a single platform and multiple variants to cater to entire IA needs... Also IA brass within knows that Arjun is coming up well as of now.. so chances are brighter of a new MKIII also once the trials and acceptance of MKII occurs..

 

[SQ8]

Its funny how the usual Indian "expert" opinions emerge on the JF-17 to come up with "confirmed" performance figures on the fighter out of well.. I'd rather not say. In some effort to downplay the aircraft, to feel good about the LCA. Lage raho.

 

[janon]

What source?

Don't you remember when indian aircrafts crossed into Pakistani borders after 2008 incident?

Those Aircrafts were Su-30MKI (FULLY-LOADED) and Mirage 2000-9s etc...PAF's F-16s and F-7Ps took to the skies to defend our airspace..The incusions happened in two sectors...Lahore and Azad Kashmir..

Over Lahore sector, Pakistani Aircrafts got a solid "lock" on an indian Su-30MKI...

Some senior members here, who are "professionals" with links inside military, have even seen the video recorded by PAF fighter's cam...with Su-30MKI firmly "locked" in PAF's F-16's target sight...and "beeeepppppppp" of lock can be heard too...lol

Su-30MKI was later "allowed to leave" Pakistani Airspace while being "locked" by F-16s all the way to border

indian senior members here have also confirmed this...but according to their version, Su-30MKIs had high-tech equipment on board and they "wanted" to get locked by PAF to see what kind of radars PAF was using, to pick up electrical signals etc, and how alert PAF was (reaction time to interception etc)...

All that detail you won't find in newspaper...only thing you'll find is that indian fighters entered Pakistani Airspace but were forced to leave once PAF arrived...but what happened that night was a bit more interesting than that.

According to some newspaper reports, Later, General Kiyani showed the picture of indian aircraft in PAF's "lock" to General Mike Mullen, and remarked "Next time, we'll bring it down" to send clear message to indians not to enter Pak''s airspace again....which they "obeyed" I'm not sure how authentic this is though...Ask any senior member to confirm if it actually happened..The Mullen episode that is...but indians getting locked by PAF over Lahore sector is a confirmed deal...

And remember, this was the time when we had no latest F-16s and 0 JF-17..

Now, we have one of THE most sophisticated and high-tech fighter aircrafts, F-16 block 52+, along with 50+ BVR loaded JF-17 Thunders..backed by AWACS and ECM Aircrafts, integrated in 100% network-centric war-time central command..something indians lag behind us as of now.

Breaking through Pakistan's Air Defenses would be an uphill marathon task for iaf!

Got it, @RAMPAGE ? As I said earlier, who needs sources when his own "memory" is enough? I 'remember' hooking up with Madhuri dixit, but will not go into vivid details like that fellow. It is easy to make up engrossing stories that make the writer feel good. But sources? Oh no, trust my "memory". Dont you just "remember" it?

 

[Icarus]

Well work on the MK.2 has already begun and its first flight will be in the next 18 months.

And we shall surely discuss its merits then.....

Secondly your point about the Arjun is entirely moot. An entire family based on the Arjun IS being developed- a BLT and recovery variant are almost ready for delivery.

Yes I am aware of that, however adoption is still a big ''íf''.

The Arjun MK.2 is already under trails with 248 of these having been ordered, there is a high chance more will be used and then the Mk.3 is looking increasingly likely to be a replacement to the IA's FMBT plans.

3 decades worth of development for just 250 units sounds a bit flimsy right? The adoption rate reflects a lack of interest and if the reports that reach my desk are to be believed, most Regiments that took the Arjun are not too happy with it which is why we don't see too many of them at the annual Armour exercises at Rajhastan. Once again, I will reserve my opinion about the Mk.II and Mk.III until I can see them in action and then base my opinion accordingly.