Govt can invoke Article 6 to try terror suspects instead of military courts: SC

[VCheng]

Because the root of the civilian rule, the bureaucracy is corrupt. When every organisation run by the government is corrupt then democracy is a failed proposition and to be honest any system will fail. When taxes are not collected, laws are not upheld, police and court both are for sale, corruption is the norm, there is no health service, and every capable person wants to leave nothing can fix Pakistan. This is a steroid shot, the effects temporary, at times necessary, but the side effects will manifest eventually.

@Syed.Ali.Haider

This patient has had so many steroid shots, its adrenals have shut down permanently. Now what happens next is quite understandable for you, Sir.

Hi,
So bullying is justified ? in case of US owing to the fact that US is powerful ?

What has that to do with the topic of this thread?

 

[salarsikander]

This patient has had so many steroid shots, its adrenals have shut down permanently. Now what happens next is quite understandable for you, Sir.



What has that to do with the topic of this thread?

Hi, and the patient was sick beyond curing, its high time such patient be removed with another one that is far more curable than a lost cause

[
@Syed.Ali.Haider
It was a legitimate response to your statement\
EDIT sorry for the misunderstanding here. Please find the edited post below

Can pakistan afford to resit its CON.
Well, as i have said that as long as the interest with US align we can easily do that.

But if US forces us otherwise then the anti US sentiment will be reinforced and further justified with a strong valid argument that when we were asked to do more and so we did, and now that we are so close to breaking point, we see a complete change of stance in US position. We have held those terrorists for a combined period of 13 years now. And as poor country we don't have the luxury of keeping those scumbags alive, EU and US for that matter are more than welcomed to integrate them into their own society if they feel so sorry for them.

We OTOH will not stop executing those who deserve execution.

 

[VCheng]

Hi, and the patient was sick beyond curing, its high time such patient be removed with another one that is far more curable than a lost cause

There is only one patient called Pakistan. You will not get a replacement. Your call.

 

[Gufi]

This patient has had so many steroid shots, its adrenals have shut down permanently. Now what happens next is quite understandable for you, Sir.

That stage has not been reached yet, I would rather say this state needs chemotherapy, there is a malignancy and it needs aggressive treatment. That stage could be reached if things go on this track till 2020, because a strong state will be needed to deal with the realities of the region which are bleak at best.

 

[salarsikander]

There is only one patient called Pakistan. You will not get a replacement. Your call.

Hi,
You are not so naive as your above post suggests
But, let me help you with that.

The current democracy system which invites goons, criminals and gullu butts is the patient

 

[Jungibaaz]

Because the root of the civilian rule, the bureaucracy is corrupt. When every organisation run by the government is corrupt then democracy is a failed proposition and to be honest any system will fail. When taxes are not collected, laws are not upheld, police and court both are for sale, corruption is the norm, there is no health service, and every capable person wants to leave nothing can fix Pakistan. This is a steroid shot, the effects temporary, at times necessary, but the side effects will manifest eventually.

@Syed.Ali.Haider
@Jungibaaz

Part in bold I completely disagree with. I try not to go into poli sci like definitions for my views, but here I have to disagree. What you have right now, is a democracy, albeit a dysfunctional one. Democracy in Pakistan has not been around since 1947, it's been around since 2008, and if it is removed, the counter will go back to zero again. For you to judge democracy that has been around for 7 years, that came about at a time of global economic downturn and a civil war like state at home is also something to be taken in to consideration. Could you imagine someone in the US, saying that in 1786, that the US has failed as a state and that democracy has failed? They'd be missing out on the greatest success story in modern history.

You cannot start the democratic process, and then ask only a few years in, why isn't it perfect yet? Give it some time, having this system is painful in the short term, and requires a sense of purpose and will to see you through to the long term, in which you may come to realise the benefits and never look back.This brings me to an old debate I had about this.

I can bet you, even this current system after only 20 years of evolution from now, no Pakistani will ever look back at these dictatorships or unspoken alternatives.

One of the biggest reasons for our lack of development, the lack of ability of other powers to take us seriously, and the reason why Pakistan is still considered dangerous, is because of a lack of political stability. Stability is key, it is as important, if not even more important than getting rid of corruption.

 

[Gufi]

What you have right now, is a democracy, albeit a dysfunctional one.

Democracy is for people who understand realities, Sir. The votes here are sold, given according to castes, or on the basis of being under a strict Chaudry etc, their overlord. I agree democracy is the way forward,but one which needs major reformation. And for that you need to straighten bureaucracy which does not mean to be the case. This is a long debate, which I think you do not wish to have. To make things short, democracy needs someone who can work without thinking of winning over officers and Chaurdry's but to work for the people. Everyone knows who the PM is and how corrupt he is, but what about those CSS officers who spent 35-40 years looting and plundering the country. Give me a leader who can fix that, and this country can be fixed. And give me a voting system that is transparent, where there is no fore to vote on way or the other, and give me clean candidates. Otherwise there is no use of picking one crook over the other.

 

[Shamain]

@salarsikander i honestly didnt get this whole para


The Supreme Court said that the federal government can invoke treason charges under Article 6 of thePakistan Penal Code (PPC) relating to terrorism against the state instead of setting up military courts.

Fed gov can invoke treason charges against state....????? What does that all mean and how are they comparing article 6(iknow what artice 6 is)and military courts. Why i am not getting it

Part in bold I completely disagree with. I try not to go into poli sci like definitions for my views, but here I have to disagree. What you have right now, is a democracy, albeit a dysfunctional one. Democracy in Pakistan has not been around since 1947, it's been around since 2008, and if it is removed, the counter will go back to zero again. For you to judge democracy that has been around for 7 years, that came about at a time of global economic downturn and a civil war like state at home is also something to be taken in to consideration. Could you imagine someone in the US, saying that in 1786, that the US has failed as a state and that democracy has failed? They'd be missing out on the greatest success story in modern history.

You cannot start the democratic process, and then ask only a few years in, why isn't it perfect yet? Give it some time, having this system is painful in the short term, and requires a sense of purpose and will to see you through to the long term, in which you may come to realise the benefits and never look back.This brings me to an old debate I had about this.

I can bet you, even this current system after only 20 years of evolution from now, no Pakistani will ever look back at these dictatorships or unspoken alternatives.

One of the biggest reasons for our lack of development, the lack of ability of other powers to take us seriously, and the reason why Pakistan is still considered dangerous, is because of a lack of political stability. Stability is key, it is as important, if not even more important than getting rid of corruption.

Oh dear sir , democracy comes first and foremost when there is no electoral rigging ,when u have rigged elections then u dont have any any democracy starting right from the bottom and up

 

[Jungibaaz]

Oh dear sir , democracy comes wfirst and foremost hen there is no electoral rigging ,when u have rigged elections then u dont have any any democracy starting right from the bottom and up

Democracy is for people who understand realities, Sir. The votes here are sold, given according to castes, or on the basis of being under a strict Chaudry etc, their overlord. I agree democracy is the way forward,but one which needs major reformation. And for that you need to straighten bureaucracy which does not mean to be the case. This is a long debate, which I think you do not wish to have. To make things short, democracy needs someone who can work without thinking of winning over officers and Chaurdry's but to work for the people. Everyone knows who the PM is and how corrupt he is, but what about those CSS officers who spent 35-40 years looting and plundering the country. Give me a leader who can fix that, and this country can be fixed. And give me a voting system that is transparent, where there is no fore to vote on way or the other, and give me clean candidates. Otherwise there is no use of picking one crook over the other.

What both of you are saying is not new to me, we all know full well the system is weak, corrupt, incompetent, treacherous and fell. But for that, I am only arguing that this is roughly the way to progress, I am only against uprooting it and starting from scratch (again...!), I am not against changing it, making it better, nor do I deny it's problems and shortcomings.

So, if we are in agreement about that, what is this debate about? If that's not the case, then please offer either an alternative or a near enough fix with details.

And all these problems you state here, every old democracy has faced, some have indeed seen far worse than this too.
But their perseverance has earned them what no quick fix has given us.

 

[Gufi]

What both of you are saying is not new to me, we all know full well the system is weak, corrupt, incompetent, treacherous and fell. But for that, I am only arguing that this is roughly the way to progress, I am only against uprooting it and starting from scratch (again...!), I am not against changing it, making it better, nor do I deny it's problems and shortcomings.

So, if we are in agreement about that, what is this debate about? If that's not the case, then please offer either an alternative or a near enough fix with details.

And all these problems you state here, every old democracy has faced, some have indeed seen far worse than this too.
But their perseverance has earned them what no quick fix has given us.

Devolution of power, mayor systems, more provinces, anti corruption courts then democracy should be restored. Till then a semi democratic broken system should run with this level of army input.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Devolution of power, mayor systems, more provinces, anti corruption courts then democracy should be restored. Till then a semi democratic broken system should run with this level of army input.

The first few points are fine. The rest is something I disagree with, that last part especially is the back to square one argument. Also, I do not see the need of the army here, though I do see massive damage their over-involvement could cause yet again.

 

[Gufi]

The first few points are fine. The rest is something I disagree with, that last part especially is the back to square one argument. Also, I do not see the need of the army here, though I do see massive damage their over-involvement could cause yet again.

They are heading investigations into MQM, PPP, and other political parties as well as fighting BLA, TTP, and getting those sentenced to death years ago to a noose.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

This could lead the Honourable Judges to be tried under article 6 as well.

 

[Jungibaaz]

They are heading investigations into MQM, PPP, and other political parties as well as fighting BLA, TTP, and getting those sentenced to death years ago to a noose.

The issue is not what they're doing, so much as why and how. How can we expect to build a civilian system when powers are handed over to the army again and again? Besides the civilians being deprived of their right to go and learn it for themselves... these problems you've listed were around for decades, nothing has changed. No dictator has changed them. Musharraf for example, he had all the authority one could hope for. Even if a political party won a 60% majority in Pakistan, it would still be jealous of the commanding power one Musharraf had. Yet for that, he did nothing, no reform, just some short term consumerism and inflationary growth and then out, back to square one. More often, weve had extremely damaging actions by them we still pay for. It is not their job.

Also, fighting criminal elements is something that is given to the army by elected governments, if they take that in to their own hands and do it unsanctioned, what they are doing is wrong by law and constitution.

Anyway, I'll leave this discussion for later.

 

[Gufi]

The issue is not what they're doing, so much as why and how. How can we expect to build a civilian system when powers are handed over to the army again and again? Besides the civilians being deprived of their right to go and learn it for themselves... these problems you've listed were around for decades, nothing has changed. No dictator has changed them. Musharraf for example, he had all the authority one could hope for. Even if a political party won a 60% majority in Pakistan, it would still be jealous of the commanding power one Musharraf had. Yet for that, he did nothing, no reform, just some short term consumerism and inflationary growth and then out, back to square one. More often, weve had extremely damaging actions by them we still pay for. It is not their job.

Maybe you are right, but I speak from my personal understanding. I would not support total martial law, but total corrupt democracy is not ok with me either. Maybe with age I get wiser. Thank you for sharing your point of view. I guess we understand each other, whether we agree or not is inconsequential.