Government of Pakistan should declare a Jihad on the terrorists

[All-Green]

Dont use relegion to fight relegious extremism, it would one day turn around at you. Use statehood to fight these guys, fight for Pakistan.

Bull,
When someone argues with you on some topic you do not change the topic.

What these terrorists are claiming in front of misguided masses to garner support is something which can never be attributed to their atrocities.
My sole purpose is to take the Bull (read TTP ) by the horns and for that we need to rip apart their facade of waging a Jihad.
Jihad cannot be declared by a person against the state to cause civil unrest and bloodshed.
Causing civil unrest and bloodshed is the most severely punishable crime as per Islamic Principles!

Pakistan and Islam is not the ownership of TTP.
Both constitution of Pakistan and the principles of Islam are 100% against what TTP is doing.

The point needs to be driven home and what i am suggesting is one of the most direct methods of dealing a blow to the pretentious ideological struggle of TTP.

 

[muse]

All Green

The world rejects the idea of Jihad, wholesale - Pakistan will find few takers, infact none, should it wanto to go the Jihad route to take on Baitullah (what a name).

So, how can Pakistan hope to mobilize it's population against Baitullah?


It can't !

On the other hand Baitullah can help, he can mount more attacks in Pakistani cities and bring the oridnary Pakistani to realize that unless he finds the will to fight back, he and his will be killed -- On the otjher hand if Baitullah is smart he will measure, he will use attacks as a wave, then allow the anger to subside, allow the media to spread both the fear and the justifcation to give in to the will of the Talib.

You will have noted today that the commander of the Pakistan army has said that the Army can defend Pakistan, however; you will note it's performance in Swat, does it engender confidence?

This war has a long way to go and Baitullah asa Al-Qaida franchaisee has many more Pakistanis to kill - anyway, he's not the real enemy, the real enemy is a ideology and the well head of the same ideology cannot prevail against it's progeny.

 

[muse]

All-Green


below is a article I ran across today -- you may find it interesting - As far as Islamic this or that is concerned, it's just, over -

Re-inventing Pakistan
Dr Manzur Ejaz


A few weeks ago, at a literary meeting in Virginia, a retired judge narrated the case of a 60-year-old woman who was left penniless when her husband divorced her despite the fact that her hard labour was the main reason for his success. The judge, after doing diligent research of Islamic law, mandated the husband to give his divorced wife a house and provide a monthly allowance.

A conservative Muslim in the audience stood up and told the judge that he had negated Islamic law. Almost everyone in the audience was outraged by this comment, and a couple of them tried to rebut it as well. However, most kept the anger to themselves and avoided confrontation with this self-claimed puritan.

This is typical of common Muslims: they don’t confront the mullahs when such a situation arises. Consequently, the mullahs think they have the moral authority over a belief system that is shared by all Muslims. If one goes by the mullahs’ strict interpretation of sharia law, women are not entitled to many things that common Muslims, especially females, would take as a genuine right. Therefore, there is a fundamental gap between what common Muslims consider basic human rights and religious hard-liners.

Furthermore, what common Muslims in Pakistan do not want to admit is that religion cannot be adopted as state ideology. If religion is accepted as state ideology, the theocrats will take over sooner or later. When Pakistan declared itself a religious state, the mullahs genuinely thought they had a right to impose their will on all citizens, as they have been trying to do since the creation of Pakistan.

In the past, whenever a ruler imposed religion on the state, it resulted in massive anarchy and, ultimately, the destruction of the state. This is exactly how, by imposing theocracy, Aurangzeb destroyed the Mughal Empire, which had been running quite smoothly before him for about two centuries. On the contrary, all successful empires in the subcontinent, from King Ashoka (304 BC–232 BC) to Emperor Akbar (1542–1605), never mingled state business with their personal belief system. The Great King Ashoka was a strong Buddhist convert but never imposed his preferred religion on the state. As a matter of fact, Buddhist monks, like the preachers of other new religions, could not visit state-owned villages to spread their message.

Pakistan’s ruling elites adopted religion as state ideology with the understanding that they were just adding a few lines to the constitution which would never affect them or the society in any way. Most of the legislators, hailing from the rural areas, could not visualise a mullah, designated as kammi (an artisan) in their setting, threatening their political power. Therefore, they felt no conflict in passing anti-alcohol laws during the day and arranging lavish wet parties at night. Now, when the mullahs are trying to end this day-night differential, our rulers have no clue what to do.

The urban middle classes of Pakistan, consumed by anti-Hindu and anti-Jew passions fuelled by an obscurantist education system, also believed that there is no contradiction between them rapidly embracing modernism in everyday life and accepting religion as state ideology.

The Punjabi- and Urdu-speaking intelligentsia, in the media, civil bureaucracy and the military, was the most delusional in this regard. They created the doctrinarian ideology and the retrograding educational system. They never thought of suicide bombings and floggings as consequences of their ideological preferences. The military, looking for strategic depth in Afghanistan through the Taliban, never thought of the opposite effect: the Taliban finding their strategic depth in the population centres of Punjab.

In recent years, numerous religious obscurantists found justifications in the US invasion of Afghanistan, as if Uncle Sam had created the entire problem. As a matter of fact, the Taliban were ruling Afghanistan, banning females from professional life and from getting educated, blowing up Buddha statues, and targeting minorities much before the US invasion.

Of course, the US, with Zia-ul Haq, had created the Mujahideen to fight the Soviet Union in the 1980s but then abandoned Afghanistan, creating a vacuum that was filled by Taliban. The Americans, like the Pakistani ruling elites and middle class intelligentsia, never thought that their creation would come back to haunt them one day.

Now, when the battle lines are drawn, most Pakistanis are still confused and paralysed. On the one hand, they have their innocuous concept of religion as a state ideology, and on the other, the concrete outcomes of such an ideology in the shape of the Taliban, suicide bombers and whip-waving mullahs.

Some live in the illusion that all extremist elements will somehow evaporate, while others believe that the police and other armed institutions of the state will take care of the militants. They still think that their concept of a modern religious state will survive in the end, and they will never have to face up to the contradictory ideas perpetuated over decades. Probably, the age of miracles has long gone and none of their perceived solutions is going to come true: they have to wake up and smell coffee.

Pakistan has reached a point where the state, defining itself on the basis of religion, cannot survive: either the state or the theocratic concepts will survive. Furthermore, the state of Pakistan cannot survive unless the intelligentsia and the masses reconcile to the concept of keeping their belief system to themselves and letting the state be neutral to religion. Unless the masses rally around the new concept of the state — slogans can be sugar-coated for such a goal — security agencies will never have the moral courage and strength to eradicate extremism. The time ‘to be or not to be’ is upon us.

The writer can be reached at manzurejaz@yahoo.com

 

[All-Green]

Muse

I think we are all sick and tired of the Mullah and his personal brand of Islam.

Please note however that it is not a case of strict interpretation but rather a case of deliberate misinterpretation of Islamic principles on part of the Mullah.
Whereas an educated person spends time and seeks logic, the run of the mill Mullah gives off the cuff remarks and has no qualms about his irresponsible and idiotic statements and their impact on the minds and heart of the listeners.

I am very well 100% in agreement with the fact that writ of the Pakistani state cannot be challenged in the name of Islam.
My point is that this fact is also supported by Islam in the entire context of the situation and so this fact should also be propagated to the misguided/confused masses in order to make them realize the truth.

The difference between the Mullah and the scholar is that the scholar will keep the contextual nature of Quranic verses in mind but the Mullah is too ignorant to keep this logical thing in mind.
Quran mentions many things specific to time and prevalent situation at that particular time.
Reference to the context is absolute must!

On another thread which you were also commenting upon, i gave my point of view regarding the veil/face covering as per Quran and its context.
It is one of the many examples where we have given Mullah the room to exert something which is not the decree of Allah.

Maybe we are not educated/mature enough to handle the truth and to discard the misconceptions and misinterpretations instilled in our society by the Mullah. However that has to change.

The problem i see is that if we do not deal with the Mullah and shake his hold we cannot hope to isolate and eliminate the perpetrators of the heinous crimes being carried in the name of Islam.

Islam has never ever allowed persecution of people in the name of religion, we can marry women of other religions and past examples of many great Muslim rulers indicate that they treated all citizens equal regardless of race or religion.
A Jew took one of the greatest caliphs to court and despite being a most righteous man the caliph could not produce enough witnesses and thus his claim was rejected by the judge.
on one hand we have example of women fighting besides men in combat (battle of Yarmuk) and on the other hand Mullah wants to keep the woman confined in homes.

Do we relegate Islam (a way of life) or do we defend it.
Either way it shall be a head on collision with the Mullah, that is 100% guaranteed.

I respect what you are getting at but i want us to see Islam as a very good/tolerant way of life and not the fiefdom of the Mullah to do with as he pleases.
We have been told to spread the message and shape our lives in accordance with Islam, not to wage war on the world.

BTW the term Kuffar used in Quran is pertaining to those who rejected the Prophet (PBUH) despite knowing the absolute truth of his prophet hood, of course that was something the Prophet (PBUH) was aware of being a messenger of Allah and not something applicable nowadays since the Prophet (PBUH) is not amongst us.
The only military Jihad that can be waged by us is to relieve helpless,oppressed and persecuted people from their plight in the name of Allah.
The most superior Jihad is the constant Jihad (struggle) to improve oneself as a human, as instructed by the Prophet (PBUH).
Clearly TTP fails 100% on all accounts.

Our Mullah mentions many Quranic verses in their war mongering without knowing their context and we readily buy his version due to lack of awareness.
It is this awareness which i want to be enhanced!

Constitution of Pakistan is in accordance with Islam so there is no need to redefine the Modus Operandi of the state.
There is need for improvement in implementation of Law and order but that cannot be brought upon by TTP, guns and terrorism.
These concerns need to be raised by peaceful means and protests if need be but not armed revolt!
No room exists for TTP to justify their actions as per Islam.

It is TTP and their sympathizers who are out of line and need to sorted out in strictest manner possible.

 

[abrakadabra]

ENOUGH!

Reason: No one wants to seal the border and that includes the GOP, GOA and USA.
QED.

I can understand why GOA does not want to seal the border.

I may be naive in thinking here, but please help me and explain why GOP will not be interested to seal the border? Why US will not be interested?

However I will NOT be willing to believe that PA and ISI will institutionally be working against the interests of Pakistani Citizens.

 

[TOPGUN]

TIME to kill the bastards and deport the rest to there land ! time for serious raids,arrests and death senteces perhaps shoot on site iam so sick of these cowards i want to kill them my self they are destroying our country bit by bit trying to change our way of life and wat we belive in i have no mercey for these bastards i dont know how to express my self anymore this stupid a$$ gov needs to wake up and the public in our cities need to be strong and fight back these bastards enough is enough is this wat we get for doing the right thing i hope you all support me on this issue damn thing is enough i wish death upon these cowards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[muse]

All-Green



You are the best of the best and I am always in your camp, from your post, like so many, you see and understand The Mercy that is Islam and it's Mazloum adherents - you see and understand how corrupt and God Forsaken scholars have taken a stand against that Mercy and Quran karim, and you see and understand that Muslims must take a stand to defend the Mercy that is Islam and the Quran Karim, and here, I stand with you.


You say Islam is away of life and it is the privelage of the Mazloum to be protected in their persepective, however; I also read with interest your comment:

Constitution of Pakistan is in accordance with Islam so there is no need to redefine the Modus Operandi of the state

You seem to be saying that the Pakistani state guided as it is by it's understanding of Islam, needs to better understand and incorporate those values, it now seems to understand the need for. Seems to me that you are suggesting that our understanding of Islam as a way of life, like our understanding of anything, is based on the depth of knowledge we are prepared to use as a tool for understanding God's mercy that are Islam and Quran Karim.

Whereas the Mullah is offering to mire us in stale misinterpretations that consequently effect how we understand Islam as a way life, you seem to be suggesting that the secret of Islam and Quran Karim are that as our knowledge and understanding grows and as we constinue to use this knowledge to continuously attempt better understanding of Islam and Quran and sciences such as laws or shariah, we rediscover, we are presented with an understanding, as if we were understanding our subject for the first time and how delightful is that.

But ofcourse what a tremendous responsibility is placed on the shoulders of those who choose to become conscious Muslims and in doing so, see clearly the disregard and therefore untrustworthyness of the mullah.

How then can we respond? Our hearts are inflamed by the sense of betrayal and our anger must be restrained, we must attempt to think clearly, to understand the enemy clearly, to understand how we entered the melieu in which there are the likes of Baitullah and so many others, how did we allow the creation of this melieu.

By seeking a call for Jihad by the Pakistani state against scum such as Baitullah are we not making the melieu we spoke of earlier, one in which we too can operate and is this not a betrayal of ourselves?

So, what do we do? We have chosen to not use Islam as a tool of political violence, we have asserted that God's Mercy is not some plaything to be used by opportunists, for there are opportunists on every imaginable side and we affirm that love and fear of God, which is Faith, is our shield against those who seek to do us harm and is our identifier to all others, who go from strength to strength and delight in being FAITHFUL.

 

[fatman17]

You will have noted today that the commander of the Pakistan army has said that the Army can defend Pakistan, however; you will note it's performance in Swat, does it engender confidence?

muse - swat is the most populated of the settled areas and cannot be treated like the kinetic actions taken by the army in bajaur - similar kinetic action in swat will create havoc! - the taliban are smart, they know this and have assembled in swat and since the govt. does not have a coherent anti-terrorism strategy, the army will not take this risk!

it has nothing to do with the ability of the army!

 

[muse]

it has nothing to do with the ability of the army!

Is it then a question of Will? or has been suggested elsewhere that the Army will not thread where the politicians will not lead?

 

[SSGPA1]

Everything can't be blamed on PA. Swat was about to fall when our political leadership opted for talks.

This is not the first example.

 

[muse]

Now, when the battle lines are drawn, most Pakistanis are still confused and paralysed. On the one hand, they have their innocuous concept of religion as a state ideology, and on the other, the concrete outcomes of such an ideology in the shape of the Taliban, suicide bombers and whip-waving mullahs.

Some live in the illusion that all extremist elements will somehow evaporate, while others believe that the police and other armed institutions of the state will take care of the militants. They still think that their concept of a modern religious state will survive in the end, and they will never have to face up to the contradictory ideas perpetuated over decades. Probably, the age of miracles has long gone and none of their perceived solutions is going to come true: they have to wake up and smell coffee.

Pakistan has reached a point where the state, defining itself on the basis of religion, cannot survive: either the state or the theocratic concepts will survive. Furthermore, the state of Pakistan cannot survive unless the intelligentsia and the masses reconcile to the concept of keeping their belief system to themselves and letting the state be neutral to religion. Unless the masses rally around the new concept of the state — slogans can be sugar-coated for such a goal — security agencies will never have the moral courage and strength to eradicate extremism. The time ‘to be or not to be’ is upon us.

Well then, it's the politicians - all the same anyway.

 

[white_pawn]

As for what i think is that pakistan should go offencive against this terrorists because its hurting pakistan society really bad other than any one. As US is just funding any provind some militery backups but the fight is not in its land, thats was the difference is

Due to this pakistans economy is slowing down and effect of this is ppls are loosing jobs and in turn these terrorists take advantage of this situation

If pakistan gets all the mess cleared up will be good for pakistan more than any one

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan has reached a point where the state, defining itself on the basis of religion, cannot survive: either the state or the theocratic concepts will survive.

Alarmist to the extreme and Utopian solutions to boot!

The state and theocratic concepts will survive as they have all this time - they have to. There is no magic wand that will suddenly change the outlook of Pakistanis from religious to secular.

The issue here isn't one of Pakistan's ideology, but one of poor governance, geo-political games by all players involved and a military unwilling to create the havoc the required military force would inevitably cause.

A military tied on one side by the realization that the GoP remains unable to get its act together in formulating and implementing policies that would allow for holding the ground cleared by the military, instead of creating a festering sore of destruction and millions displaced, and on the other side reluctant to allow room to the external threat from a hostile neighbor.

The author pushes an unrealistic ideological agenda on the back of issues primarily related to good governance, political will and geo-politics.

Alarmist, unrealistic and unhelpful.

 

[muse]

The state and theocratic concepts will survive as they have all this time

And you are the Agnostic variety?

Since when are theocrats agnostics? ever since the boundry between the absurd and reality evaporated I suppose.

Seems we will have to be active to create the kindo f Pakistan we can be proud of and act to deny the kind ofo Pakistan we will be ashamed of.

Was S2 too far off the mark when he said the race has begun....? time will tell.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And you are the Agnostic variety?

Since when are theocrats agnostics? ever since the boundry between the absurd and reality evaporated I suppose.

Recognizing the reality of the status of society in Pakistan and advocating working within that reality, instead of spouting fanciful dreams, does not imply I am a theocrat.

Pragmatism and real world solutions, instead of an ideological quagmire.

Let me know when you decide to dispense with the ad hominems. Discuss the arguments, instead of labeling people.

Seems we will have to be active to create the kindo f Pakistan we can be proud of and act to deny the kind ofo Pakistan we will be ashamed of.

Was S2 too far off the mark when he said the race has begun....? time will tell.

There is no wrong in striving for a separation of religion and state in the long run, but given the status of Pakistani society today, that is likely a generational struggle, yet the author suggests Pakistan will collapse unless all heed his call.

Absurd and unrealistic.

The immediate challenge facing Pakistan is IMO on the issues I outlined in my earlier post, and the 'race' shall be determined on the basis of those parameters, and not over Pakistan's ideology.