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Government of Pakistan should declare a Jihad on the terrorists

Recognizing the reality of the status of society in Pakistan and advocating working within that reality, instead of spouting fanciful dreams, does not imply I am a theocrat


Quite the little politician and what "status of society" are talking about? Pakistani society is multilayered yet you seem to only see islamists to work with? And do drwams get any more fanciful than those of the islamists? No they don't and you want ot be practical, exactly which islamist ideas are practical?

How is Pakistan's ideology different from that of Islamists or taliban?
 
Is it then a question of Will? or has been suggested elsewhere that the Army will not thread where the politicians will not lead?

valid point! remember Kiyani does not have "carte blanche" which musharraf did. after all isnt this what everyone on this forum wants - an army under the civilian control - what you see is what you get!:enjoy:
 

"I, (state your full name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

I imagine your commissioning oath is very similar. No words should be more sacred to a serving officer.
 
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Quite the little politician and what "status of society" are talking about? Pakistani society is multilayered yet you seem to only see islamists to work with? And do drwams get any more fanciful than those of the islamists? No they don't and you want ot be practical, exactly which islamist ideas are practical?

How is Pakistan's ideology different from that of Islamists or taliban?

And where did I suggest I only see Islamists to work with? Are the PPP, ANP, PML-N Islamists? They support the existing constitution and are the popularly elected leadership of Pakistan, and I support the constitution and continued democracy. Any flaws that do exist, or any changes that need to made can be done through a democratic process as the political system and electorate evolves.

What I disagree with is the authors contention that Pakistan can only survive if it suddenly becomes a secular state - there is a difference between that position and the dissembling argument you made of 'only engaging with the 'Taliban' or 'Islamists'.

Pakistanis cannot be forced to become secular overnight nor can the state be made secular overnight, yet the author implies that his is the only way - that position is alarmist and absurd. Pragmatism is about working within the confines of that 'non-secular' reality to address the challenges facing Pakistan today

Pick up the constitution and read through the objectives resolution to see how Pakistan's ideology is different from that of the Taliban.
 
AM

I think you are confused, the author is not suggesting that Pakistan overnight become a secular state - However; you will agree that Pakistan was never intended by it's creator, The Quaid e Azam as a theocratic state.

What the author is pointing towards is the unique understanding of Islam, a whip carrying Mullah Islam, and a Progressive Pakistan in which Deen and Duniya are in Balance cannot co-exist and Pakistan and Pakistanis can no longer afford to delay choosing which side of the divide they stand with.

There is today a struggle in Pakistan to define where it should stand, you are in your right to want to stand with islamists and in your right to stand with secular parties such as PPP and varieties of ML. We know what standing with the Islamist has brought Pakistan and we also know what the soc alled secular parties have brought Pakistan.
 
AM

I think you are confused, the author is not suggesting that Pakistan overnight become a secular state - However; you will agree that Pakistan was never intended by it's creator, The Quaid e Azam as a theocratic state.

What the author is pointing towards is the unique understanding of Islam, a whip carrying Mullah Islam, and a Progressive Pakistan in which Deen and Duniya are in Balance cannot co-exist and Pakistan and Pakistanis can no longer afford to delay choosing which side of the divide they stand with.

There is today a struggle in Pakistan to define where it should stand, you are in your right to want to stand with islamists and in your right to stand with secular parties such as PPP and varieties of ML. We know what standing with the Islamist has brought Pakistan and we also know what the soc alled secular parties have brought Pakistan.

Muse, the author very clearly argues for a separation of religion and state - am not sure what confusion there can be on that.

It is the progressive Islam that most Pakistanis follow and embrace, and that progressive and moderate Islam forms that confine that we must battle against extremism from, whilst continuing to evolve towards a fairer and more progressive society and political system.

The problem in Pakistani society today is of differentiating between the two - extremist Islam and moderate Islam - often you will hear people utter the refrain, "Islam is Islam, there is no Taliban Islam and progressive Islam". That is the battle, to make people realize that there are starkly different Islam's vying for supremacy, and the vile, ugly one of the extremist will overshadow us (as its nature demands) unless we make the distinction and forcefully reject it and uphold moderate and progressive values as a cornerstone of our faith.

But the Awaam needs guidance and tangible evidence that one side is truly the torch bearer reflective of their progressive values. On one side the extremist beckons with his deceptive promise of quick and simple justice and equality, on the other our Government and moderate political parties talk about 'quick and simple justice and prosperity' yet continuously fail to deliver, secular, moderate and conservative alike.

The extremist is untested, the Government many times so. The extremist says those who have failed for this long have had enough chances, but their greed for power is used to unfairly deny us, the extremist, the chance to better your lives, and so we pick up arms for justice. The government exclaims those who oppose them are wrong, but why should people believe those that have lied to them time and time again and only contributed to misery?

The government, secular, moderate or conservative, MUST deliver on governance and show the will to put down the challenge posed by anarchist forces. Without delivering on even basic needs, the party in power will lose the message and the ideological war to the party vying for power, and this despite the fact that the extremists have damaged their cause with so many without even attaining power!
 
i think we must study and learn Islam and then speak about its ideology rather putting personal views and assupmtion.

In reality Islamic law is very strict but stright forward unlike man made constitutions and thats the biggest fear of some of black sheeps among us where west just cannot see establishing it. they get billions from saudia but do not even spare her on islamic sharia. sharia no doubt is easy to implement but hard for people in black and those prefer to live in gray area.

well about taliban, does anyone know who are taliban? what they want? what are the reasons they are fighting? how they are different than 80's jihadies? what are the definitions of a terrorist and freedom fighter? i would like to know which muslims organisations around the world known as freedom fighters and how many?
 
i think we must study and learn Islam and then speak about its ideology rather putting personal views and assupmtion.

In reality Islamic law is very strict but stright forward unlike man made constitutions and thats the biggest fear of some of black sheeps among us where west just cannot see establishing it. they get billions from saudia but do not even spare her on islamic sharia. sharia no doubt is easy to implement but hard for people in black and those prefer to live in gray area.

well about taliban, does anyone know who are taliban? what they want? what are the reasons they are fighting? how they are different than 80's jihadies? what are the definitions of a terrorist and freedom fighter? i would like to know which muslims organisations around the world known as freedom fighters and how many?

So being Muslims, should we get a certificate from Sufi Muhammad that we are qualified to discuss Islam which is supposed to be our way of life?
There is nothing wrong with the discussions and we can all correct each other if somebody is twisting a fact.
Keeping Islam in the hand of the Mullah is what has gotten us in this situation.

Quran is very specific about key things that make a society truly great but it does not cover why Taliban beat men for not keeping their Shalwaar above their ankles, they even killed someone for arguing otherwise!!!
What does Quran say about not keeping a beard?
What does Quran say about hair cuts?
Sorry but enforcing such things is not Islam and yet are being passed on as Islamic law.
It is our duty as Muslims to at least point out the farce that is being called Islamic law by people who have almost no understanding of Islamic values.
 
The government, secular, moderate or conservative, MUST deliver on governance and show the will to put down the challenge posed by anarchist forces. Without delivering on even basic needs, the party in power will lose the message and the ideological war to the party vying for power, and this despite the fact that the extremists have damaged their cause with so many without even attaining power

These sorts of meaningless political speak helps no one except islamists. On one hand they demand that government deliver on basic services, on the other hand they destroy infrastructure and burn schools. How is the goverenment, any governement supposed to deliver basic services?

The problem in Pakistani society today is of differentiating between the two - extremist Islam and moderate Islam - often you will hear people utter the refrain, "Islam is Islam, there is no Taliban Islam and progressive Islam". That is the battle, to make people realize that there are starkly different Islam's vying for supremacy, and the vile, ugly one of the extremist will overshadow us (as its nature demands) unless we make the distinction and forcefully reject it and uphold moderate and progressive values as a cornerstone of our faith.



We must come out clearly, UNEQUIVOCALY and claim for ourselves the label "MUSLIMS" and equally important, place a lable on those whose values we do not share, we will be contributing to confusion among the populace.

I note that you refer to Islamists as "extremists" - I am persuaded that we must refer to them by their ideological motivation, by the justification they offer for their acts and behaviour.

In Pakistan it is not Marxist extrmists, not Republican extremists, who are engaged in terrorism, Terrorism in Pakistan, insurrection in Pakistan and Rebellion in Pakistan is being carried out by those claim to be guided by the ideology of Islamism, that is to say they use religion as a tool of politcal violence and the justification of political violence - thats why it is accurate to call them what they are, Islamist terrorists.

In this way we seperate Muslims from the behaviours of those who use, abuse and malign Islam - we send a clear message that the particular kind of behavior, the particular kind of belief, attitudes and values are not aceptable to Muslim Pakistanis and that they reject this attempt to abuse and malign the name and reputation of Islam.
 
They're irhabist fcuks who must die.

Asim is wrong and this word is entirely appropriate to connote the religious hi-jacking that's occurred in maybe the most truly devout muslim nation on this planet.:pakistan:
 
Imagine if what which we know as "rape" is argued by some to no tbe referred to as "rape", but perhaps "not good sex" or something that robs the name of the act of it's malignant and psychotic implication.

We could then not argue that the motivation and justification of the act we now call "rape", is malignant, is rooted in a psychosis - it would even rob us of assigning a value judgment on the act.
 
These sorts of meaningless political speak helps no one except islamists. On one hand they demand that government deliver on basic services, on the other hand they destroy infrastructure and burn schools. How is the goverenment, any governement supposed to deliver basic services?

Good governance and provision of basic services is 'meaningless political speak'? How absurd!

Infrastructure and services are not being destroyed in Peshawar and other large swathes of NWFP proper, they are not being destroyed in Lahore and large swathes of Punjab, nor in Karachi and large swathes of Sindh. Yet there has been abysmal investment in necessary services and continued poor governance. So what are the vast majority of Pakistanis that live in these areas to make of this?

The war is not merely one of winning hearts and minds in FATA and Swat, it is of the vast majority of all Pakistanis.

We must come out clearly, UNEQUIVOCALY and claim for ourselves the label "MUSLIMS" and equally important, place a lable on those whose values we do not share, we will be contributing to confusion among the populace.
Agreed and self evident.

I note that you refer to Islamists as "extremists" - I am persuaded that we must refer to them by their ideological motivation, by the justification they offer for their acts and behaviour.

In Pakistan it is not Marxist extrmists, not Republican extremists, who are engaged in terrorism, Terrorism in Pakistan, insurrection in Pakistan and Rebellion in Pakistan is being carried out by those claim to be guided by the ideology of Islamism, that is to say they use religion as a tool of politcal violence and the justification of political violence - thats why it is accurate to call them what they are, Islamist terrorists.

In this way we seperate Muslims from the behaviours of those who use, abuse and malign Islam - we send a clear message that the particular kind of behavior, the particular kind of belief, attitudes and values are not aceptable to Muslim Pakistanis and that they reject this attempt to abuse and malign the name and reputation of Islam.
I disagree with using the term Islamist, for a couple of reasons - first, to do so gives the terrorist a chance to legitimize their cause, to the less informed it gives pause - "Jihadist, islamist - it must have something to do with Jihad and Islam, can't all be wrong then can it?"

No, we should not give them even a hint of credibility or cause - they are criminals. Reduce them to the level of the murderer and dacoit gunned down without remorse, without question. Refuse to discuss their ideology or motivation, because then you have already legitimized their cause and ideology as one that needs to be distinguished from that of a criminal.

They are challenging the writ of the State, violating the constitution, breaking the law, whatever their justification, and the State has an obligation to stop them, and law abiding citizens have an obligation to support the state in this endeavor.

Second, the term Islamist is also used to describe political parties that use religion as a political tool, but are non-violent. To now apply that term so loosely to the Taliban would be to tar these entities with the same brush (which some do deserve).

I believe we can avoid a lot of tangles by not attaching ideological labels to the extremists - they are criminals and must be brought to task according to the law.
 
Imagine if what which we know as "rape" is argued by some to no tbe referred to as "rape", but perhaps "not good sex" or something that robs the name of the act of it's malignant and psychotic implication.

We could then not argue that the motivation and justification of the act we now call "rape", is malignant, is rooted in a psychosis - it would even rob us of assigning a value judgment on the act.

Rape describes an act - 'Islamist' describes the Taliban as they wish to see themselves described, it does not describe their deeds and crimes.

They operate on the basis of spreading terror and fear, through massacres, torture, and atrocities upon combatant and non-combatant alike - terrorist would be apt, had the word not been robbed of its meaning during the Bush years.
 
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