GHQ Check-Post Attackers Killed - Hostages Rescued!

[DavyJones]

Remember the Israeli hostages? NSG's hands were tied for a very long time. There were negotiations as well.
Plus there is also a difference between civilians and military hostages. Not to mention the Pak army and SSG were fighting on "home ground" literally as opposed to Taj hotel, Oberoi etc. Modern Hotels are mazes of corridors rooms, fire escapes, service lifts.

In the Taj operation (which took the most time) NSG had to rescue over 200 guests in various rooms. The terrorists were highly mobile and n touch with handlers who fed them information. They had scouted the interior of the building very well. Wonder what details about the current attack will come out.
Anyways comparisons are not apt before full details of the Pak SSG operation are revealed. I think we still don't know the whole story.
3 hostages and 2 soldiers have been killed - wonder if the Pak authorities wanted to end the siege early at all costs. Has the media been allowed inside details, interviews- the picture will be clearer in a few days/ months.
Till then - Pak's SSG, army know they are in the crosshairs of terrorists. It's a tough fight. It affects the morale of troops who would any day prefer open war against this death by a thousand cuts. Something the Indian army knows too well.
I think this mindless bloodshed can be stopped once governments and people realise that the enemy of everyone is within us. It is our fears that takes us to choose the path of violence.

 

[TaimiKhan]

peace deals with whom. local tribesmen? thats ok. but with Maulvi Nazir, Gul Bahadur no way. because these guys may not attack on Pakistan but they openly say they would continue 'jihad' in Afghanistan. what would happen when PA defeat bad taliban in swa. will they allow these anti US taliban or stop them too from crossing over the border.

The taliban don't need to use Pakistan anymore for any cross terror strikes, as the afghan taliban are already in control of more then 70% of Afghanistan, which is more then enough for them to train & hide. Even the Afghan Taliban are now asking the taliban on this side to come over there in Afghanistan other then to stay here.

Plus the Maulvci bahadur & Nazir group have never threatened Pakistan nor they like to attack PA until & unless provoked.

These tribes don't consider any border between them & their Afghan brethren. Their tribes are living on both sides of the border sharing everything.

And the attack in SWA will take a lot of time to complete. If Swat will be taking more then one year to bring it to some normality, then just imagine how much will this place take. I look at a time frame of 2+ years for some meaningful outcome to be seen.

Americans think that PA will do as they do, launch an operation with some awesome name designated to it, one week, 2 or 3, flush them out (rather the taliban tactfully disperse & when Americans leave come back again ), which is not the case as PA will have to hold the ground & get things to normal. Its not just going in guns blazing & then leave.

If the mehsud tribe & its militants are curtailed, the situation will become a lot better in Pakistan & this whole thing will take years.

Once the militants start getting a beating, they will disperse & resurface in Orakzai, in NWA or even go to Afghanistan. May try to come back again later.

But the recent reports that militants are digging in for a tough battle & PA is doing very comprehensive battle is due to that fact that these militants have been encircled, in previous operations the army used to take a beating as they would do action on a wide front, many loop holes from where the militants used to run away & attack from behind as that battle was with both mehsud & wazir tribes, but this time its just one, hopefully.

They are already besieged & encircled & their escape routes & options are limited, that's why this battle is being labeled as the mother of all battles.

Hope PA comes with unique solutions & tactics causing maximum damage to the militants & less casualties to their own men.

 

[DavyJones]

It must be difficult for any country to order military operations inside it's own border. Armies are meant to fight enemies from outside not within normally. I know for a fact hat the Indian armed forces loathe to fight insurgents and Naxals inside Indian borders. In fact in Kashmir most of the interiors have been handed over to police, CRPF and BSF.
But I know that facing a determined enemy like the Taliban and Al Qaeda - police and paramilitaries will not be enough - just like Indians had problems for the first 10 years of Kashmir insurgency and had to use the Army.
However one thing that stands out. Pak AF bombing towns and villages of Pak. I'm sure that's a very tough call .. Shows how deeply the militants are entrenched.
Best of luck to Pak army, AF. They will triumph - just a matter of losses and way they conduct operations. The end and the means have to be correct.Remember these operations are politically sensitive. The peace must be won after the war as well.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Remember the Israeli hostages? NSG's hands were tied for a very long time. There were negotiations as well.
Plus there is also a difference between civilians and military hostages. Not to mention the Pak army and SSG were fighting on "home ground" literally as opposed to Taj hotel, Oberoi etc. Modern Hotels are mazes of corridors rooms, fire escapes, service lifts.

In the Taj operation (which took the most time) NSG had to rescue over 200 guests in various rooms. The terrorists were highly mobile and n touch with handlers who fed them information. They had scouted the interior of the building very well. Wonder what details about the current attack will come out.
Anyways comparisons are not apt before full details of the Pak SSG operation are revealed. I think we still don't know the whole story.
3 hostages and 2 soldiers have been killed - wonder if the Pak authorities wanted to end the siege early at all costs. Has the media been allowed inside details, interviews- the picture will be clearer in a few days/ months.
Till then - Pak's SSG, army know they are in the crosshairs of terrorists. It's a tough fight. It affects the morale of troops who would any day prefer open war against this death by a thousand cuts. Something the Indian army knows too well.
I think this mindless bloodshed can be stopped once governments and people realise that the enemy of everyone is within us. It is our fears that takes us to choose the path of violence.

Totally agreed that comparing the Mumbai operations with the current GHQ operation or even Munawa Police academy operation is an unjust, as the magnitude & complexity of both is totally different.

Hope so Pakistani members on this forum understand this fact. Any kind of multiple & coordinated attacks anywhere on the planet is very hard to cope with. Tet Offensive during Vietnam War by the VC is a good example to understand the complexity of such multiple coordinated attacks.

On the other hand, Indian Security forces need an internal audit to see what was their weak point & failures & be prepared next time.

DavyJones, in Pakistan such attacks are tried to be kept in secret as mush as possible. And in no way this GHQ operation will be publicized more then what we know now. The operation had to be finished soon as the more time is given, the chances of things taking an ugly picture increases. The operation if had been left to go on more would have raised doubts on the capability of PA, or may had given the militants to get rest & stay alert for more time resulting in a more hard fight or even may had started executing the terrorists. The success of SSG can be seen from the fact that they neutralized a suicide bomber sitting among the 22 hostages to cause maximum damage, how SSG did that will remain a secret. Our nation now do realize who the real enemy is except just for a few who have their loyalties on the other end, but they are in numbers.

It was an excellent operation by SSG, the 3 hostages killed are regrettable but looking at the odds an acceptable number. And the 2 SSG commandos lost is also an acceptable number looking at the difficulties & odds confronting them.

 

[SSGPA1]

hmm.. it seems at least one suicide vest failed to explode - saving many hostages.

There was no failure in the vest, SSG shot him before he could set it off.

Credit goes to the SSG and not to the failure of vest.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

the US, S/Arabia and we r responsible for their training - remember in another time they were the mujahideen fighting the soviets - we r responsible for these "Scum of the earth", and now that they have bitten the hand that fed them, its best to finish them off - forever !!!

What if they have found a new hand to feed them and its seem that they have learn new tricks too.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Killing suicide bombers before it can blow up itself is a big task itself no matter where it is achieved. Next, coordination and quickness was real hall mark of the operation for rescuing hostages. One explosion and everything would have went wrong.

I think each operation has its on merits and demerits so we must not compare this one with any other operation anywhere.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Originally Posted by fatman17 View Post
the US, S/Arabia and we r responsible for their training - remember in another time they were the mujahideen fighting the soviets - we r responsible for these "Scum of the earth", and now that they have bitten the hand that fed them, its best to finish them off - forever !!!

No one from ISI or Pakistani army fed TTP and it has nothing to do with Afghan Jihad of 1980s. Though i agree that Pakistan did not take care of its affairs w.r.t Afghan refugees but there were other factors also;

1- Poverty and lack of education in FATA and Afghanistan
2- Civil war in Afghanistan
3- Arrival of Egyptian Takfeeri ideology to Al-Qaeda and then to TTP.
4- In 1980s people from Palestine contacted ISI and offered suicide bombing against Russians but then ISI top brass strongly reject it and wisely.
5- USA walked away from mess they created to get their objective done.
6- Philosophy of Jihad was first introduced by CIA and not by Pakistan Army... Pakistan's plan was to keep it a Afghan national resistance against Russians.

and there are still other things which also contributed... Real failure on Pakistan part was to ignore mashroom growth of Madrrashs here which happened in early 1990s after Afghan war.

 

[blain2]

I concur with Pakshaheen. The monster was created as a resulted of various factors. The Pakistani intelligence is casually blamed for it, the real reason is the on goings in the region.

I think the public mood is exactly as described here:

‘Attack on the GHQ is like attack on Pakistan. I will never forget the drama outside the military headquarters as it convinced me to understand the real enemy of Pakistan,’ said Zafar Qadri, the General Secretary of Anjuman-i-Tajiran Rawalpindi Sadder, who closely watched the shootout.



Talking to Dawn, Mr Qadri said he had seen people in the streets praying for the success of the Army, adding the terror attack aroused sympathies and support for the Army in the ongoing military operation against militants.



‘Every Pakistani should understand that militants are the enemies of our homeland and are hell-bent on killing innocent people and trying to break our country into pieces,’ he added.



‘The general public should be called to fight against militants. We are with the Pakistan Army and will fight side by side with our armed forces,’ Gul Nawab, who had come to Rawalpindi Sadder, commented, adding enemies of the country were on the run.

DAWN.COM | Metropolitan | Terror-stricken parents stuck in traffic mess

 

[pakdefender]

No one from ISI or Pakistani army fed TTP and it has nothing to do with Afghan Jihad of 1980s. Though i agree that Pakistan did not take care of its affairs w.r.t Afghan refugees but there were other factors also;

1- Poverty and lack of education in FATA and Afghanistan
2- Civil war in Afghanistan
3- Arrival of Egyptian Takfeeri ideology to Al-Qaeda and then to TTP.
4- In 1980s people from Palestine contacted ISI and offered suicide bombing against Russians but then ISI top brass strongly reject it and wisely.
5- USA walked away from mess they created to get their objective done.
6- Philosophy of Jihad was first introduced by CIA and not by Pakistan Army... Pakistan's plan was to keep it a Afghan national resistance against Russians.

and there are still other things which also contributed... Real failure on Pakistan part was to ignore mashroom growth of Madrrashs here which happened in early 1990s after Afghan war.

American involvment in the region is part of the problem and not the solution.

1984-1994: CIA Funds Militant Textbooks for Afghanistan The US, through USAID and the University of Nebraska, spends millions of dollars developing and printing textbooks for Afghan schoolchildren. The textbooks are filled with violent images and militant Islamic teachings, part of covert attempts to spur resistance to the Soviet occupation. For instance, children are taught to count with illustrations showing tanks, missiles, and land mines. Lacking any alternative, millions of these textbooks are used long after 1994; the Taliban are still using them in 2001. In 2002, the US will start producing less violent versions of the same books, which President Bush says will have “respect for human dignity, instead of indoctrinating students with fanaticism and bigotry.” (He will fail to mention who created those earlier books). [Washington Post, 3/23/2002; Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, 5/6/2002] A University of Nebraska academic named Thomas Gouttierre leads the textbook program. Journalist Robert Dreyfuss will later reveal that although funding for Gouttierre’s work went through USAID, it was actually paid for by the CIA. Unocal will pay Gouttierre to work with the Taliban (see December 1997) and he will host visits of Taliban leaders to the US, including trips in 1997 and 1999 (see December 4, 1997 and July-August 1999). [Dreyfuss, 2005, pp. 328]
Entity Tags: Thomas Gouttierre, Central Intelligence Agency, USAID, George W. Bush, Taliban, University of Nebraska

University of Nebraska

 

[blain2]

Remember the Israeli hostages? NSG's hands were tied for a very long time. There were negotiations as well.
Plus there is also a difference between civilians and military hostages. Not to mention the Pak army and SSG were fighting on "home ground" literally as opposed to Taj hotel, Oberoi etc. Modern Hotels are mazes of corridors rooms, fire escapes, service lifts.

There is no home advantage as such. The hostages mattered the same be it inside of GHQ or a hotel. The layout of the facility had been given to both CT teams (in India and here as well).

The scope of this operation was definitely limited. However SSG conducted the operation at Lal Masjid which was at least as big in scope as the one carried out by the Indian SF at Golden temple the first time around.

Anyways comparisons are not apt before full details of the Pak SSG operation are revealed. I think we still don't know the whole story.
3 hostages and 2 soldiers have been killed - wonder if the Pak authorities wanted to end the siege early at all costs. Has the media been allowed inside details, interviews- the picture will be clearer in a few days/ months.

The idea is to resolve the situation as quickly as possible so the other side cannot take as much advantage of the situation. Indeed casualties have been taken, but overall it was a very successful operation.

Till then - Pak's SSG, army know they are in the crosshairs of terrorists. It's a tough fight. It affects the morale of troops who would any day prefer open war against this death by a thousand cuts.

I think the Army is well prepared to deal with this problem but it will take time. The public support is overwhelmingly pro-Army. I have full confidence in the capabilities of the Pakistan Army to learn and evolve as necessary and have said the same over the past many months even on this forum when people were doubting Pakistan Army's ability to handle the TTP in Swat. They have done this quite well over the past many decades. The militants will continue to hit out at Pakistan's soft under-belly (cities and civilians etc.) because that is what is left for them to do. As their support is choked in FATA and in Northern Punjab, there will be more acts of desperation before this threat is subdued. As Pakistanis we need to hang in there and hope that there are positive developments in Afghanistan which will help contain this militancy inside of Pakistan. Their is no military solution to this problem. The military can only help to contain the threat to an extent. Defeating it requires looking at the support inside of Pakistan and also the ongoings in Afghanistan.

 

[pakomar]

what will be the next step for pakistan army now?

right question will be what will be the US next propaganda against Pakistan.

 

[x_man]

It must be difficult for any country to order military operations inside it's own border. Armies are meant to fight enemies from outside not within normally. I know for a fact hat the Indian armed forces loathe to fight insurgents and Naxals inside Indian borders. In fact in Kashmir most of the interiors have been handed over to police, CRPF and BSF.....

Some people have really short memory or I would guess that perhaps they never knew about the events that took place in their own country couple of decades back. Ever heard of Operations BLUE STAR??? Any idea of the Indian forces deployed in Punjab to suppress the Khalistan movement?

I will quote a passage from Partap Singh’s book Only Solution, on page 56 he writes, ‘’.....In all 10 Divisions were deployed in the Punjab – a force larger than that used during the three Indo-Pak wars. Bulk of Indian Army which is not committed Himalayan border facing China was deployed in this tiny state. It would be a safe guess that more than half the combatant troops of the world’s fourth largest army was employed ostensibly to kill Sant Binderanwale and couple of hundred of its associates....’’

Any anti state movement has to be treated with all the assets available on hand. I am gutted when people talk against Pakistans military ops in her country but forget that what happened in their own country as well. I guess they should get back to the history class about their own country and spare us their ignorance.

Once again hats off to Pakistan Army for handling the whole ops very professionally.

 

[PakShaheen79]

I think the Army is well prepared to deal with this problem but it will take time. The public support is overwhelmingly pro-Army. I have full confidence in the capabilities of the Pakistan Army to learn and evolve as necessary and have said the same over the past many months even on this forum when people were doubting Pakistan Army's ability to handle the TTP in Swat. They have done this quite well over the past many decades. The militants will continue to hit out at Pakistan's soft under-belly (cities and civilians etc.) because that is what is left for them to do. As their support is choked in FATA and in Northern Punjab, there will be more acts of desperation before this threat is subdued. As Pakistanis we need to hang in there and hope that there are positive developments in Afghanistan which will help contain this militancy inside of Pakistan. Their is no military solution to this problem. The military can only help to contain the threat to an extent. Defeating it requires looking at the support inside of Pakistan and also the ongoings in Afghanistan.

Now this is my biggest concern. We cannot grantee peace in FATA,NWFP and hence in whole Pakistan until and unless there is a permanent across the board and acceptable to all solution for Afghanistan.

Like you said, I am also confident that PA will eventually cut the menace of TTP to size with support of political leadership and local masses and tide has already turned against these TTP terrorists.But what about Afghanistan? A political black hole of world.

I want to warn fellow Pakistanis here... If US and NATO go for a talk with Taliban in Afghanistan there must be no doubt in anyone's mind that those Talibans are limited to Afghanistan only. Afghan Taliban never crossed into Pakistan to commit any terrorism... But Pakistan must never enter a dialogue with TTP as they never kept their word and always use these peace deal to regroup. Point is whatever happen in Afghanistan Pakistan will have to crush TTP in SWA and FATA... It is very critical. Period.

I think US and NATO will use peace talk with Taliban to create another deception in Pakistani masses. A common question will be; "If US can talk to Afghan Taliban why Pakistan can't stop killing its own people and talk with TTP?"... It sounds very convincing but be careful this US and Taliban peace talks are just rumors and distraction at best. Pakistan will have to keep chasing TTP and eliminate it ASAP.

 

[Khajur]

There is no home advantage as such. The hostages mattered the same be it inside of GHQ or a hotel. The layout of the facility had been given to both CT teams (in India and here as well).
The scope of this operation was definitely limited. However SSG conducted the operation at Lal Masjid which was at least as big in scope as the one carried out by the Indian SF at Golden temple the first time around.

Not true Blain.. actually NSG wasnt provided with any layout of the Taj Hotel at mumbai during the 26/11 attack...the 100yr hotel has been through many renovations...NSG had to search each rooms this mamath labyrinth with more than 200 rooms and so was the case at Oberai hotel.
couple of hostages came out from the hiding of thier rooms only in the afternoon of the day, mission completed.


Infact its only now that Mumbai municipal corporation has made mandatory to deposit the layout plan of every major building in the nearest police station.

...Compare that to GHQ ,PA which is the nodal military garrison with its dedicated SF to protect it from exactly the same kind of attack that took place yesterday.