German press: 'The Asian Giants Arms Race Is Starting to Look real

[AADHAAR]

Well, we spent 120+ billion and increasing each year on military.

The countries in question combined can't match our spending.

It's not a race if it's this loopsided.

If I run with Usain bolt, it's not a race, it's a joke.

If all you have got is "J-10" to show for the spending .. it's pretty pathetic.

If the intention of western countries' arms embargo on china was to make it re-invent every type of wheel ever invented by mankind (and make it pay through nose, inventing those wheels)... they succeeded a bit too well.

Ahh.. it's not that bad dear.. they let you use the universal law of gravitation .. as well as faraday's laws of electromagnetism .... all for free.

And never forget thanking Soviet Union, every day and every night ... it saved quite a bit for the famine-stricken china, wanting to run a Manhattan project.

Now comes the "paying-thru-the-nose" time ... where there's no Sovien Union, Nixon or Bill Clinton to save china.

Now you'd know, why 129 billion spending is too little to worry even Phillipines or the Viets.. leave alone anybody else.

 

[Genesis]

If all you have got is "J-10" to show for the spending .. it's pretty pathetic.

If the intention of western countries' arms embargo on china was to make it re-invent every type of wheel ever invented by mankind (and make it pay through nose, inventing those wheels)... they succeeded a bit too well.

Ahh.. it's not that bad dear.. they let you use the universal law of gravitation .. as well as faraday's laws of electromagnetism .... all for free.

And never forget thanking Soviet Union, every day and every night ... it saved quite a bit for the famine-stricken china, wanting to run a Manhattan project.

Now comes the "paying-thru-the-nose" time ... where there's no Sovien Union, Nixon or Bill Clinton to save china.

Now you'd know, why 129 billion spending is too little to worry even Phillipines or the Viets.. leave alone anybody else.

I never said we did it alone without help, just we spent more. J-10 may not be much compare to US airforce, but that's because the US spends way more. The Russians also spent more in the past. The same cannot be said for India.

The arms embargo gave us a military industrial complex, before the embargo the motto was always, buy is better than make and rent is better than both. Now we have a military industry that can make weapons as fast as we lose them. And even faster.

Having weapons is good for show, but having an industry is good for WAR. Indian fighters may not be worse than Chinese ones, but how many can you make a month to replace fallen ones? If we make our industry go over time we can put two out for every one we lose if not more. While Indian lost, is just lost.

How many missiles do you have? Can you even make it through the war with your current inventory?

You can buy from others, assuming no embargo during a war, it would still take a long time for others to make the items. And by the time they finish it would be too late.

We will have to pay more and more as we enter fields unexplored by others, but then we do have an economy on track to pass the US. The same can't be said for the other Asian countries.

So now you know why the 120+ billions is worrying.


And P.S. I don't hear the Philippines screaming the Taiwan threat even though Taiwan was closer to war with Philippines on the fisherman incident.

Also, if it didn't worry people, this article would not exist. Not a lot of newspaper screaming the Vietnam threat.

 

[AADHAAR]

I never said we did it alone without help, just we spent more.

Actually, you still saved a lot all thru these years.

You did not need to run manhattan project, courtesy Soviet Union.

You didn't need to develop Mig-21, since Sovient Union gave you the technology on a platter.

Still, if you are cribbing "we spent a lot" .... then you should ask yourself, "where the hell did we spend", when everything we got was free.

A very nice world, where Soviet Union was followed by Nixon .. and Nixon was followed by Bill Clinton.

My question is what did you achieve, after Su-27 was given by the Russians... with "all that you spent" !!!

"J-10" ???

Go compare the specs to HAL Tejas .. and then don't compare what India spent and what China "spent".

Compare the outputs, rather than the inputs.

Even India built nuke submarines, damn advanced missiles and even an aircraft carrier .... what did China produce that could be called the output commensurate to 3 times what "it spent".

J-10 may not be much compare to US airforce, but that's because the US spends way more. The Russians also spent more in the past. The same cannot be said for India.

And hence comparison to US or Russia is not fair.

But why do you look flat (if not, worse) against India ... in terms of output, when the input (i.e. what you "spent") is 3 times !!

Eh... is it money going down the drain ... or is it "re-inventing every type of wheel mankind has invented."

The arms embargo gave us a military industrial complex, before the embargo the motto was always, buy is better than make and rent is better than both. Now we have a military industry that can make weapons as fast as we lose them. And even faster.

Having weapons is good for show, but having an industry is good for WAR. Indian fighters may not be worse than Chinese ones, but how many can you make a month to replace fallen ones? If we make our industry go over time we can put two out for every one we lose if not more. While Indian lost, is just lost.

How many missiles do you have? Can you even make it through the war with your current inventory?

You can buy from others, assuming no embargo during a war, it would still take a long time for others to make the items. And by the time they finish it would be too late.

If you counting "J-10" against Su-30MKI ... there are already too many of both of them, but "J-10" loses hands down.

And trust me Su-30MKI gives much greater bang for the buck .. than J-10 can ever come close to. (Note: see here the 3 times spending is going; but what's the output)

Pretty much ditto for "J-11" or the older "J-7".

If India gets the current level of conventional deterrence against china ... at just 1/3rd the price, we should be patting ourselves for all the corruption and what not. PRC is doing much worse in terms of the "bang for the buck" it gets from 129 billions.

We will have to pay more and more as we enter fields unexplored by others, but then we do have an economy on track to pass the US. The same can't be said for the other Asian countries.

India is one country which exceeded the GDP of china in historical times, and can readily do so.

India's GDP is most dependent of human resources and renewable resources .. but less on mining.

What it isn't dependent on is "mining" .. which is the life and soul of the current chinese economy.

China mines 50% of the world coal (7 times India).... but in wheat and rice it produces about the same (not even 2.5 times, which the GDP PPP ratio suggests).

China produces 5 times crude oil to India .... again significantly more than the factor of 2.5 times.

Mining contributes 10% of china's GDP (ie. coal mining, crude oil, iron ore etc). They are all non-renewable.. and while they are produced they deteriorate the land and cause pollution.

For India, mining is only 1.5% of it's GDP.

The services (which are essentially dependent on human endeavours - software services etc) and agriculture (which is bases on renewable resources) GDP approach parity .... and mining in china is a big factor affects the GDP ratio.

So now you know why the 120+ billions is worrying.

The "input" can't be a cause of worry .. perhaps amusement.

The "output" from that spending .. is what you should cite.

And P.S. I don't hear the Philippines screaming the Taiwan threat even though Taiwan was closer to war with Philippines on the fisherman incident.

Also, if it didn't worry people, this article would not exist. Not a lot of newspaper screaming the Vietnam threat.

Phillipines and Vietman are connected to the world at large ... while china and north korea stand alone and aloof.

That's the reason, less than 20% of the world's population with even less share of world GDP is no cause of worry for the remaining 80% of the population with an even larger share of the GDP.

 

[Genesis]

Actually, you still saved a lot all thru these years.

You did not need to run manhattan project, courtesy Soviet Union.

You didn't need to develop Mig-21, since Sovient Union gave you the technology on a platter.

Still, if you are cribbing "we spent a lot" .... then you should ask yourself, "where the hell did we spend", when everything we got was free.

A very nice world, where Soviet Union was followed by Nixon .. and Nixon was followed by Bill Clinton.

My question is what did you achieve, after Su-27 was given by the Russians... with "all that you spent" !!!

"J-10" ???

Go compare the specs to HAL Tejas .. and then don't compare what India spent and what China "spent".

Compare the outputs, rather than the inputs.

Even India built nuke submarines, damn advanced missiles and even an aircraft carrier .... what did China produce that could be called the output commensurate to 3 times what "it spent".



And hence comparison to US or Russia is not fair.

But why do you look flat (if not, worse) against India ... in terms of output, when the input (i.e. what you "spent") is 3 times !!

Eh... is it money going down the drain ... or is it "re-inventing every type of wheel mankind has invented."



If you counting "J-10" against Su-30MKI ... there are already too many of both of them, but "J-10" loses hands down.

And trust me Su-30MKI gives much greater bang for the buck .. than J-10 can ever come close to. (Note: see here the 3 times spending is going; but what's the output)

Pretty much ditto for "J-11" or the older "J-7".

If India gets the current level of conventional deterrence against china ... at just 1/3rd the price, we should be patting ourselves for all the corruption and what not. PRC is doing much worse in terms of the "bang for the buck" it gets from 129 billions.



India is one country which exceeded the GDP of china in historical times, and can readily do so.

India's GDP is most dependent of human resources and renewable resources .. but less on mining.

What it isn't dependent on is "mining" .. which is the life and soul of the current chinese economy.

China mines 50% of the world coal (7 times India).... but in wheat and rice it produces about the same (not even 2.5 times, which the GDP PPP ratio suggests).

China produces 5 times crude oil to India .... again significantly more than the factor of 2.5 times.

Mining contributes 10% of china's GDP (ie. coal mining, crude oil, iron ore etc). They are all non-renewable.. and while they are produced they deteriorate the land and cause pollution.

For India, mining is only 1.5% of it's GDP.

The services (which are essentially dependent on human endeavours - software services etc) and agriculture (which is bases on renewable resources) GDP approach parity .... and mining in china is a big factor affects the GDP ratio.



The "input" can't be a cause of worry .. perhaps amusement.

The "output" from that spending .. is what you should cite.



Phillipines and Vietman are connected to the world at large ... while china and north korea stand alone and aloof.

That's the reason, less than 20% of the world's population with even less share of world GDP is no cause of worry for the remaining 80% of the population with an even larger share of the GDP.

I'm just going to ask one thing, if you ask anyone around the world who is more efficient Chinese or Indian government, what would people say?

Now who's wasting money?

BTW, our military expenditure doesn't cover research or nuclear program. Our millions are for maintaining, producing new equipment, training and such. You are underestimating the size difference between China's military and India's.

 

[AADHAAR]

I'm just going to ask one thing, if you ask anyone around the world who is more efficient Chinese or Indian government, what would people say?

Now who's wasting money?

What do you have to show ... anything much different that from India that would suggest that the higher "spending" gave a higher output?

BTW, our military expenditure doesn't cover research or nuclear program. Our millions are for maintaining, producing new equipment, training and such. You are underestimating the size difference between China's military and India's.

That would make it much worse ... spending even more, and still much the same to show as output.

As for the "ability" to spend more is concerned, in the long term, it is about at parity between India and China.

The key difference in GDP is that china is over-exploiting the mining sector .. which is its own choice.

Good for the world, perhaps .... what better way to get china's coal out than have the chinese dig it out.

 

[Genesis]

What do you have to show ... anything much different that from India that would suggest that the higher "spending" gave a higher output?



That would make it much worse ... spending even more, and still much the same to show as output.

As for the "ability" to spend more is concerned, in the long term, it is about at parity between India and China.

The key difference in GDP is that china is over-exploiting the mining sector .. which is its own choice.

Good for the world, perhaps .... what better way to get china's coal out than have the chinese dig it out.

Are you serious? Does India produce almost all of its own weapons? Research may not account for expenses but production and hiring as well as training does.

Our Submarine force is far more advanced and quite a few more than yours. We have our own fighters that is constantly being improved, and recent articles indicates mass production of J-10Bs and J-11B/Cs.

India is leasing nuclear subs and building a few NOW, while we have already have a nuclear sub force capable of operation.

Our fleet has Type 52D, Type 54A, 20,000 ton Type 71, type 56, and a few other kinds of ships.

India doesn't have such a line up, and the speed of building and induction is also nowhere near as fast.

WZ-10,WZ-19 already in service and not still prototype.

5th Gen J-20, J-31 already test flight many times. Indian 5th gen is still on paper. Also we rejected the chance to work on T-50, which should say something.

a UAV program that already has drones capable of launching missiles. India barely has drones to do scouting.

A tank force that is more than twice yours. A artillery force more than three times than yours.

Our soldiers are better equipped, living in better condition, earns more, has more training, education. We also has twice the number of soldiers.


So what's this not having anything to show for? The difference will only get larger not smaller as we will soon enter fields that are not previously entered and unless the US wants to share their most secret techs with India, India won't have access to it.

Just because you think it's the same, doesn't mean it is. There's nobody screaming Indian military threat, and that's not an accident.

As to GDP, that's not the topic, but either way, nobody ever says China without coal will be worse than India or the same. GDP it's not even close, it's not disputed by anyone Indian or otherwise. Oh except @Jayalt. But last time I checked he is not the authority on this issue.

 

[xunzi]

The arm race in Asia is a joke. This is not much of a race between China and various Asian actors but it is a race among ourselves. We're racing among ourselves because we "know" other Asian actors cannot match in the long-term. We are racing to build a world-class military and time is on our side. Only time and experience will achieve what we want in this 21st century. Other Asian military capability is not our concern, if at all. We know we can beat their military capability easily.

 

[Lightningbolt]

Indian economy is far too small to ever get into an arms race with us. Indian economy is tiny and with the Rupee collapse, the Indians will find it impossible to keep up with PLA development.

 

[Genesis]

Indian economy is far too small to ever get into an arms race with us. Indian economy is tiny and with the Rupee collapse, the Indians will find it impossible to keep up with PLA development.

well, it's not like they were keeping up before and only now they are falling behind.

 

[xunzi]

If all you have got is "J-10" to show for the spending .. it's pretty pathetic.

If the intention of western countries' arms embargo on china was to make it re-invent every type of wheel ever invented by mankind (and make it pay through nose, inventing those wheels)... they succeeded a bit too well.

Ahh.. it's not that bad dear.. they let you use the universal law of gravitation .. as well as faraday's laws of electromagnetism .... all for free.

And never forget thanking Soviet Union, every day and every night ... it saved quite a bit for the famine-stricken china, wanting to run a Manhattan project.

Now comes the "paying-thru-the-nose" time ... where there's no Sovien Union, Nixon or Bill Clinton to save china.

Now you'd know, why 129 billion spending is too little to worry even Phillipines or the Viets.. leave alone anybody else.

LOL What a dumbster. Name me another country that has concurrent and ongoing massive project: aircraft carrier, stealth aircraft (not one but TWO), ASBM, submarine, and more. We do all these projects at the SAME TIME.

 

[chhota bheem]

chinese spend too much on defence and security. If you guys think chinese defence expenditure is high there domestic security budget is even more than what they spend on defence.

 

[Lightningbolt]

chinese spend too much on defence and security. If you guys think chinese defence expenditure is high there domestic security budget is even more than what they spend on defence.

Our defence budget is too high?

Pretty much all of Indian central government spending goes to military spending.

 

[faithfulguy]

chinese spend too much on defence and security. If you guys think chinese defence expenditure is high there domestic security budget is even more than what they spend on defence.

How much do Indian spend on fighting rebellions, the red corridor project. It seems like a ongoing project that never ends.

 

[AADHAAR]

Atleast now you start thinking in the right way .. by trying to quantify what you get in return for all the "spending".

Are you serious? Does India produce almost all of its own weapons? Research may not account for expenses but production and hiring as well as training does.

Our Submarine force is far more advanced and quite a few more than yours. We have our own fighters that is constantly being improved, and recent articles indicates mass production of J-10Bs and J-11B/Cs.

India is leasing nuclear subs and building a few NOW, while we have already have a nuclear sub force capable of operation.

Our fleet has Type 52D, Type 54A, 20,000 ton Type 71, type 56, and a few other kinds of ships.

India doesn't have such a line up, and the speed of building and induction is also nowhere near as fast.

WZ-10,WZ-19 already in service and not still prototype.

5th Gen J-20, J-31 already test flight many times. Indian 5th gen is still on paper. Also we rejected the chance to work on T-50, which should say something.

a UAV program that already has drones capable of launching missiles. India barely has drones to do scouting.

A tank force that is more than twice yours. A artillery force more than three times than yours.

Our soldiers are better equipped, living in better condition, earns more, has more training, education. We also has twice the number of soldiers.


So what's this not having anything to show for? The difference will only get larger not smaller as we will soon enter fields that are not previously entered and unless the US wants to share their most secret techs with India, India won't have access to it.

Just because you think it's the same, doesn't mean it is. There's nobody screaming Indian military threat, and that's not an accident.

As to GDP, that's not the topic, but either way, nobody ever says China without coal will be worse than India or the same. GDP it's not even close, it's not disputed by anyone Indian or otherwise. Oh except @Jayalt. But last time I checked he is not the authority on this issue.

India is doing pretty well .. and isn't short of money either.

But we measure the outputs more carefully ... and the endeavour is to keep the defence spending low.

And sometimes cheaper effetive option is to buy .. than to re-invent the wheel. The usual practice here is to buy the design, but manufacture in India.

Most military equiments - and that includes fighters, ships, artillery, missiles, helicopters - are actually made in India.

The difference is that sometimes we buy design. (and that compares to china steals design, but it is questionable if it ends up cheaper to steal a half baked cake eventually, as the experience with "J-11" shows).

Off course, buying isn't always the cheapest option.. and what is increasingly being the trend -- that both design and manufacture happen in India. eg. Arihant class nuclear submarines, Advanced light helicopter, Arjun tank, HAL Tejas, an entire range of missiles from Akash to agni, varios ordnance factories. Many of such design-to-manufactures were not happening even 2 decades back. But now the trend is clear.

Then there is the stuff which reduces the cost of defence; design not offerered for sale; and we are quite far from realizing it domesitcally - the latest US transports.. they reduce the operational costs drastically for us. (and mind you, they are already counted out in the annual amount spent on defence imports which is still less than 10% of total spending of 40 bilion). They are cost reducers, and a wise decisions (note: china has no equivalents to these - it can't do it itself, like ourselves and embargo forces it to pursue alternate costlier options like building uneconomical roads).

Quite a decent bargain, compared to what china achieves, where corruption is one thing, but other thing is the embargo which makes any development in china costlier; some times prohibitively costlier. That is a big contributor to the outputs we see in comparison to the inputs in china.

 

[Lightningbolt]

Not a single military equipment in the Indian military is 'Made in India' with Indian components.

And yes, India is definitely short of money which is exactly why the Rupee has collapsed.