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German Chancellor Angela Merkel's historical China map flap

There're some High-ranking officials work for Japanese during WW 2 were Han
What if Nowaday Mongolia defeat PRC and say that they're successor of PRC ... LOL

I have no idea how could you link two irrelevant cases together.

Japanese never considered themselves as the successor of Chinese dynasties, nor will they call their country "China".

Lets see how Yuan and Qing called themselves:

「蠻夷小邦,不足以勞中國(Yuan)。張立道嘗再使安南有功,今復使往,宜無不奉命。」

「將流入黑龍江之額爾古納河為界,河之南岸屬於中國(Qing),河之北岸屬於鄂羅斯」

Is there any possibility that Outer Mongolia will claim successor of PRC and named themselves "China"~? :cheesy:
 
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I have no idea how could you link two irrelevant cases into one.

Japanese never considered themselves as the successor of Chinese dynasties, nor will they call their country "China".

Lets see how Yuan and Qing called themselves:

「蠻夷小邦,不足以勞中國(Yuan)。張立道嘗再使安南有功,今復使往,宜無不奉命。」

「將流入黑龍江之額爾古納河為界,河之南岸屬於中國(Qing),河之北岸屬於鄂羅斯」

Is there any possibility that Outer Mongolia will claim successor of PRC and named themselves "China"~? :cheesy:

Mongols called themselves Yuan ... not Song , right ?

So Great Khan Kublai originated from Genghis Khan created ai Ön Yeke Mongghul Ulus, Их Юань улс, Ikh Yuanʹ Üls) also Mongol dynasty is Chinese

Government Monarchy
Emperor
- 1260–1294 Kublai Khan
- 1333–1370 (Cont.) Ukhaatu Khan
Historical era Postclassical Era
- Genghis Khan founds Mongol Empire Spring, 1206
- Formal proclamation of the Yuan dynasty 18 December 1271
- Battle of Xiangyang 1268-1273
- Conquest of Southern Song 4 February 1276
- Battle of Yamen 19 March 1279
- Fall of Khanbaliq 14 September 1368
- Formation of Northern Yuan dynasty 1368-1388
 
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Can you find me some comment of Han at the time ... when they were forced to follow pigtail style ?
I heard that they felt so shame ...

And then it's time for some high ranking officials secretly cut their pigtail for Western hairstyle

How the Han people feel, when the Mongols defeated the Dynasty ruled by Han people ...
It's not true that they consider Mongols as enemy ? then those Mongols created Yuan dynasty ?

Chinese pals, you don't know that some patriotic Song soldiers and generals moved down to Great Viet as refugees and accepted as guests. They also fight Yuan invasion to Vietnam as Song force...
While several former Song soldiers and generals continue to work for Yuan during three time of Yuan invasion to Vietnam ( we call those as Han jian - pls correct me ).
FYI, we defeated all three times of Mongol Yuan invasion to Vietnam.
Anyway, Song dynasty too weak so that alien tribe could defeat them and kick *** Han emperor


Some of the Han people in earlier Qing did feel uncomfortable -but what is the big deal anyway. Manchurian has already completely sinicized themselves just like many minorities did. I don't see any of them are ashamed of what actually happened in the past.

Most of the soldiers who were ordered to invad Japan during Yuan dynasty were Korean, I wonder how they were called.

Yeah yeah most of the soldiers were killed by tropical diseases, very powerful indeed.

What daheck is an "alien tribe"?

Mongols called themselves Yuan ... not Song , right ?

So Great Khan Kublai originated from Genghis Khan created ai Ön Yeke Mongghul Ulus, Их Юань улс, Ikh Yuanʹ Üls) also Mongol dynasty is Chinese

The rulers of Song didn't called themselves Tang, so?

Also "China 中國" was never an official name of China before the ROC.
 
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Some of the Han people in earlier Qing did feel uncomfortable -but what is the big deal anyway. Manchurian has already completely sinicized themselves just like many minorities did. I don't see any of them are ashamed to what actually happened in the past.

Most of the soldiers who were ordered to invad Japan during Yuan dynasty were Korean, I wonder how they were called.

Yeah yeah most of the soldiers were killed by tropical diseases, very powerful indeed.

What daheck is an "alien tribe"?

We just share our point of view about Yuan ...
We always call them as Mongols with Han-jian support attempt to invade Vietnam.
Three times, we killed most of their powerful army and navy ...

Our history book wrote They are good at horse riding skill and are good archers ... which is not Chinese.

The rulers of Song didn't called themselves Tang, so?

Also "China 中國" was never an official name of China before the ROC.

Yeah Mongols occupied Song dynasty land and call their dynasty as Mongol dynasty ...
don't know why you Han are proud of Yuan occupation ... The Dynasty of Mongols rule
 
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Written by The Editors of Encyclopædia Britannica View All Contributors
Last Updated 12-18-2012
Yuan dynasty, Wade-Giles romanization Yüan, also called Mongol dynasty, (1206–1368), dynasty established in China by Mongol nomads. Yuan rule stretched throughout most of Asia and eastern Europe, though the Yuan emperors were rarely able to exercise much control over their more distant possessions.

The Mongol dynasty was first established by Genghis Khan in 1206. Genghis began encroaching on the Jin dynasty in North China in 1211 and finally took the Jin capital of Yanjing (or Daxing; present-day Beijing) in 1215. For the next six decades the Mongols extended their control over the North and then conquered South China (completed 1279), the final consolidation coming under Genghis’s grandson Kublai Khan (reigned 1260–94).

The Mongol dynasty, renamed the Yuan in 1271, proceeded to set up a Chinese-style administration. Yuan was the first dynasty to make Beijing (called Dadu by the Yuan) its capital. The Yuan rebuilt the Grand Canal and put the roads and postal stations in good order; and their rule coincided with new cultural achievements, including the development of the novel as a literary form. The vast size of the empire resulted in more extensive foreign trade and foreign intercourse than at any other time before the modern period.

Unlike other rulers of China, the Mongols were never totally Sinicized. They continued to maintain their separateness from the native population and utilized foreigners, such as the European traveler Marco Polo, to staff the government bureaucracy. Revolts in the mid-14th century overthrew the Yuan, making it the shortest lived major dynasty of China. The administrative centrality of the Yuan was continued by the succeeding Ming (1368–1644) and Qing (1644–1911/12), giving these later Chinese governments a more authoritarian structure than that of previous Chinese dynasties.


------------

The Mongols ruled China for about one hundred years. During this short time, they established new rituals and institutions that heavily influenced the following Ming and Qing dynasties. The Mongols adopted many features of Chinese culture, but early in their rule they were suspicious of having native Chinese serve in government. In turn, many Chinese scholars and officials felt alienated and refused to serve the Yuan, preferring instead to live in retirement or pursue unconventional professions. Rather than stifling creativity, however, the tension between the Mongols and their Chinese subjects seems to have energized the arts of the period. In addition, new religious and secular practices were introduced into China. At different times, the Yuan government alternated in its support between Daoism and Buddhism; and the Mongol rulers particularly favored Lamaism, a form of Tibetan Buddhism.

In their conquest of China, the Mongols had relied on their military prowess. Accustomed to a mobile steppe society, they had to devise new institutions that would enable them to rule a land in which they were a decided minority. Within a hundred years, the military strength of the Mongols was no longer dominant. Political infighting further weakened the ruling house, and widespread dissatisfaction and rebellion erupted around the country.
 
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We just share our point of view about Yuan ...
We always call them as Mongols with Han-jian support attempt to invade Vietnam.
Three times, we killed most of their powerful army and navy ...

Our history book wrote They are good at horse riding skill and are good archers ... which is not Chinese.



Yeah Mongols occupied Song dynasty land and call their dynasty as Mongol dynasty ...
don't know why you Han are proud of Yuan occupation ... The Dynasty of Mongols rule


They were not powerful at all, those Han-jians didn't even want to fight for the new Empire, just like most of the Korean didn't really loyal to Yuan.

It is because many Vietnamese consider only Han are Chinese -which is a terrible mistake.

Yuan Dynasty was a good name, so?
I never say that I'm proud of Yuan and never will I do. Why would you even proud of a dynasty which is not even existed at the present? That's stupid as hell.
 
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They are powerful, many countries incl. Eastern Europe must admit that ... even Han-ruled Song dynasty is their victim.
They occupied Song territory completely ... and you said that They're weak ?
 
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Written by The Editors of Encyclopædia Britannica View All Contributors
Last Updated 12-18-2012
Yuan dynasty, Wade-Giles romanization Yüan, also called Mongol dynasty, (1206–1368), dynasty established in China by Mongol nomads. Yuan rule stretched throughout most of Asia and eastern Europe, though the Yuan emperors were rarely able to exercise much control over their more distant possessions.

The Mongol dynasty was first established by Genghis Khan in 1206. Genghis began encroaching on the Jin dynasty in North China in 1211 and finally took the Jin capital of Yanjing (or Daxing; present-day Beijing) in 1215. For the next six decades the Mongols extended their control over the North and then conquered South China (completed 1279), the final consolidation coming under Genghis’s grandson Kublai Khan (reigned 1260–94).

The Mongol dynasty, renamed the Yuan in 1271, proceeded to set up a Chinese-style administration. Yuan was the first dynasty to make Beijing (called Dadu by the Yuan) its capital. The Yuan rebuilt the Grand Canal and put the roads and postal stations in good order; and their rule coincided with new cultural achievements, including the development of the novel as a literary form. The vast size of the empire resulted in more extensive foreign trade and foreign intercourse than at any other time before the modern period.

Unlike other rulers of China, the Mongols were never totally Sinicized. They continued to maintain their separateness from the native population and utilized foreigners, such as the European traveler Marco Polo, to staff the government bureaucracy. Revolts in the mid-14th century overthrew the Yuan, making it the shortest lived major dynasty of China. The administrative centrality of the Yuan was continued by the succeeding Ming (1368–1644) and Qing (1644–1911/12), giving these later Chinese governments a more authoritarian structure than that of previous Chinese dynasties.


------------

The Mongols ruled China for about one hundred years. During this short time, they established new rituals and institutions that heavily influenced the following Ming and Qing dynasties. The Mongols adopted many features of Chinese culture, but early in their rule they were suspicious of having native Chinese serve in government. In turn, many Chinese scholars and officials felt alienated and refused to serve the Yuan, preferring instead to live in retirement or pursue unconventional professions. Rather than stifling creativity, however, the tension between the Mongols and their Chinese subjects seems to have energized the arts of the period. In addition, new religious and secular practices were introduced into China. At different times, the Yuan government alternated in its support between Daoism and Buddhism; and the Mongol rulers particularly favored Lamaism, a form of Tibetan Buddhism.

In their conquest of China, the Mongols had relied on their military prowess. Accustomed to a mobile steppe society, they had to devise new institutions that would enable them to rule a land in which they were a decided minority. Within a hundred years, the military strength of the Mongols was no longer dominant. Political infighting further weakened the ruling house, and widespread dissatisfaction and rebellion erupted around the country.

As I have mentioned before, the terms "China" and "Chinese" in the history book mostly refer to the "middle land(中原)" and "Han people". The old and modern definitions of "China" and "Chinese" are not the same.

They are powerful, many countries incl. Eastern Europe must admit that ... even Han-ruled Song dynasty is their victim.
They occupied Song territory completely ... and you said that They're weak ?

I said those "Han-jians" (Han soliders) were weak since they don't really wanna fight for Yuan, read my post again please.
 
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As I have mentioned before, the terms "China" and "Chinese" in the history book mostly refer to the "middle land(中原)" and "Han people". The old and modern definitions of "China" and "Chinese" are not the same.



I said those "Han-jians" (Han soliders) were weak since they don't really wanna fight for Yuan, read my post again please.

So you agree that Han-people are servants for Mongol Emperor of Yuan - a Mongol Dynasty ...

If Kublai called himself as Han ... we would consider Yuan as an Chinese dynasty. .. if not we consider that as Dynasty of Mongols occupation

FYI, Vietnam never ever consider alien occupation as our dynasty ...
Vietnam or any other country name by and for Viet people who always called themselves Viet people.
 
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April 2, 2014

1396413344064.jpg-620x349.jpg

German Chancellor Angela Merkel presents Chinese President Xi Jinping with a map of China from the 18th century in Berlin, Germany. Photo: Getty

Hong Kong: Last week German Chancellor Angela Merkel hosted visiting Chinese President Xi Jinping at a dinner where they exchanged gifts. Merkel presented to Xi a 1735 map of China made by prolific French cartographer Jean-Baptiste Bourguignon d'Anville and printed by a German publishing house.

According to an antique-maps website, d'Anville's map was based on earlier geographical surveys done by Jesuit missionaries in China and represented the "summation of European knowledge on China in the 18th-century."
The map showed, according to its original Latin caption, the so-called "China Proper" -- that is, the Chinese heartland mostly populated by ethnic Han people, without Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia, or Manchuria. The islands of Taiwan and Hainan -- the latter clearly part of modern China, the former very much disputed -- are shown with a different colour border.

1396413343651.jpg-620x349.jpg

A detail of the 1735 d'Anville map showing ''China Proper''.

Historical maps are sensitive business in China. Every schoolchild in China learns that Tibet, Xinjiang, Taiwan, and the Diaoyu Islands (known as Senkaku in Japanese) have been "inalienable parts of China since ancient times."

The d'Anville map, at least visually, is a rejection of that narrative. Unsurprisingly, China's official media outlets don't seem to have appreciated Merkel's gift. The People's Daily, which has given meticulous accounts of Xi's European tour, elided any coverage of the offending map.

More curiously, when news of the map's presentation reached the Chinese heartland, it had somehow morphed into a completely different one. A map published in many Chinese-language media reports about Merkel's gift-giving shows the Chinese empire at its territorial zenith, including Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia and large swaths of Siberia. This larger map was the handiwork of British mapmaker John Dower, published in 1844 by Henry Teesdale & Co. in London, and was certainly not the gift from Merkel to Xi. But this mistake was not noted or explained in Chinese reports.

Both versions of the Merkel map have made appearances on Chinese social media, eliciting vastly different interpretations. Those who saw the d'Anville map seemed shocked by its limited territories.

Hao Qian, a finance reporter, remarked that the map is "quite an awkward gift." Writer Xiao Zheng blasted Merkel for trying to "legitimise the Tibet and Xinjiang independence movements." Architect Liu Kun wrote, "The Germans definitely have ulterior motives." One Internet user asked, "How is this possible? Where is Tibet, Xinjiang, the Northeast? How did Xi react?"

The Dower map, on the other hand, seemed to stoke nostalgia for large territories and imperial power. An advertising executive enthused, "Our ancestors are [awesome]." Another Internet user hoped Xi would feel "encouraged" by the map to "realise what a true [re-emergence] of China means."

Some suspected that Merkel tried to send Xi a subtle reminder that Russia had helped Mongolia declare independence from China in the mid-20th century, somewhat like what Russia did in Crimea in March 2014.

To be sure, the d'Anville map does not constitute a total contradiction of the Chinese government's version of history. In 1735, the year when the Qianlong Emperor began his six-decade reign, his Qing empire's military prowess was on the ascent. Qianlong quelled a rebellion by Muslims in the western region of Xinjiang, brought the Mongol tribes under closer rule, and appointed officials to oversee affairs in Tibet such as the selection of the Dalai Lama.

In other words, Qianlong established the trappings of imperial control over these peripheral territories, which allowed later governments -- the Republic of China, then the current People's Republic of China -- to claim sovereignty. Maps published by Western countries in the 19th and early 20th centuries vary in their presentations of Tibet and Xinjiang, but the Dower map is certainly not alone in showing Xinjiang and Tibet as parts of the Chinese empire.

All the cartographic brouhaha may be overblown. One Internet user refused to "overinterpret" the d'Anville map as a message about Tibet or Xinjiang. After all, "You can't use a map of the 13 colonies of the United States made in 1776 to tell Americans that Texas or California is not US territory."

Foreign Policy

Lu is the co-founder of Tea Leaf Nation, Foreign Policy's blog about news and major trends in China.

Angela Merkel's historical China map flap

A big slap of German for Chinese propaganda system....
 
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So you agree that Han-people are servants for Mongol Emperor of Yuan - a Mongol Dynasty ...

If Kublai called himself as Han ... we would consider Yuan as an Chinese dynasty. .. if not we consider that as Dynasty of Mongols occupation

FYI, Vietnam never ever consider alien occupation as our dynasty ...
Vietnam or any other country name by and for Viet people who always called themselves Viet people.

As I have told you that there were even Mongolian slaves owned by Han in Yuan dynasty. In the old days, everyone no matter what ethnic you are, are all the rulers' servants. There wasn't such thing like democracy you know.

I told you many times that [China] is never a concept, term, or country only belongs to Han. Han people is just a PART of the Chinese history.

Chinese and French invaders never consider themselves as the successor of any Vietnamese dynasty, nor did they call themselves "Vietnamese". Yet Mongolian and Manchurian (which are part of the Chinese ethnics group) claim themselves the rightful successors of the "middle land".

That's because you people only consider Kinh people represent the whole Vietnamese history and consider themselves as the "main ethnic" within the "Vietnamese ethnic group".

A big slap of German for Chinese propaganda system....

I don't see how an ancient "map of part of China" can be considered as a slap.
 
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As I have told you that there were even Mongolian slaves owned by Han in Yuan dynasty. In the old days, everyone no matter what ethnic you are, are all the rulers' servants. There wasn't such thing like democracy you know.

I told you many times that [China] is never a concept, term, or country only belongs to Han. Han people is just a PART of the Chinese history.

Chinese and French invaders never consider themselves as the successor of any Vietnamese dynasty, nor did they call themselves "Vietnamese". Yet Mongolian and Manchurian (which are part of the Chinese ethnics group) claim themselves the rightful successors of the "middle land".

That's because you people only consider Kinh people represent the whole Vietnamese history and consider themselves as the "main ethnic" within the "Vietnamese ethnic group".

I was really surprised when I know the Chinese deny their country had been defeated by Mongol Empire. :sarcastic:


I don't see how an ancient "map of part of China" can be considered as a slap.

It is a openly slap...
 
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I was really surprised when I know the Chinese deny their country had been defeated by Mongol Empire. :sarcastic:

It is a openly slap...

Surprise and ignorance are good friends, you know~? :D

It was Song, Jing and other ancient Chinese dynasties were defeated by Yuan~ And Yuan itself was also an ancient Chinese dynasty (read my posts above)~ It should be the people of Song Dynasty (not to mention southern Song doesn't even have the title of "China" 中國, but Jing dynasty does) to accept the fact that their country, Song, was eliminated by Yuan, not all the Chinese (including Mongolian)~ :p:

How:-)
 
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Funny how Vietnamese trolls are at it again,the ethnicity of the emperor doesn't matter as long as the people are content there will be less strife.

If this is the case we can bring up the Chinese ancestry of the Anterior Ly,Ho,Tran dynasties.

The Manchus had significant Han Chinese admixture even the Emperors Kangxi,Qianlong and Yongzheng had Han mothers,ethnicity was fluid in my previous posts I had shown how the Han Chinese Tong lineage was elevated to Manchu status.

The Mongols used plenty of Jin and Song defectors in their campaigns against other Chinese,soldiers often fight for the highest bidder.

All this talk about Hanjian is nonsense,the term didn't originate until the Qing where it was used to refer to Han settlers that lived and fought together with the Miao people.

FYI, Vietnam never ever consider alien occupation as our dynasty ...
Vietnam or any other country name by and for Viet people who always called themselves Viet people.
Your own historians considered Zhao Tuo's Nanyue kingdom to be legitimate ancestor to Vietnam,Zhao Tuo is from Zhending and he is not of Baiyue stock.

No,Vietnamese only call themselves Viet because of Chinese influence the term Viet/Yue is a Chinese term for certain ethnicities South of the Yangtze.

Besides Vietnamese were not the first to revive the Yue title,Lin Shihong was the first before changing it to Chu.

Even Ly Bi didn't name his kingdom Viet/Yue he named it Van Xuan/Wan Chun.
 
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Funny how Vietnamese trolls are at it again,the ethnicity of the emperor doesn't matter as long as the people are content there will be less strife.

If this is the case we can bring up the Chinese ancestry of the Anterior Ly,Ho,Tran dynasties.

The Manchus had significant Han Chinese admixture even the Emperors Kangxi,Qianlong and Yongzheng had Han mothers,ethnicity was fluid in my previous posts I had shown how the Han Chinese Tong lineage was elevated to Manchu status.

The Mongols used plenty of Jin and Song defectors in their campaigns against other Chinese,soldiers often fight for the highest bidder.

All this talk about Hanjian is nonsense,the term didn't originate until the Qing where it was used to refer to Han settlers that lived and fought together with the Miao people.


Your own historians considered Zhao Tuo's Nanyue kingdom to be legitimate ancestor to Vietnam,Zhao Tuo is from Zhending and he is not of Baiyue stock.

No,Vietnamese only call themselves Viet because of Chinese influence the term Viet/Yue is a Chinese term for certain ethnicities South of the Yangtze.

Besides Vietnamese were not the first to revive the Yue title,Lin Shihong was the first before changing it to Chu.

Even Ly Bi didn't name his kingdom Viet/Yue he named it Van Xuan/Wan Chun.
I have a question to you. perhaps you can answer.

in the book "Vietnam borderless history" I find following historical legend about Zhao Tuo's Nanyue kingdom (only English translation, no Hanji):

(written by Yu Insun)

In 196 bce, after Gao Zu of the Han dynasty had unified China, a Chinese emissary Lu Jia was sent to invest Trieu Da with the King of Nam Viet. When Trieu Da met the emissary, he asked "who is greater, me (Trieu Da) or Gao Zu of the Han?"

When Lu Jia replied that Gao Zu of the Han, who governs a vast empire, is surely the greatest, Trieu Da said, "Had I been born in China would I not be just as great as the Gao Zu?"


Zhao Tuo said he was not born in China, so he could not be Chinese, or am I wrong?
 
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