Gen Bajwa rubbishes Indian army chief's claim of 'so-called surgical strikes' on Pakistan

[Dean Winchester]

Your analysis is all BS and has no proof.

SAMAA TV tweet and ISPR silence and evasion is proof enough.

 

[Areesh]

SAMAA TV tweet and ISPR silence and evasion is proof enough.

And you only made stuff up from the both.

 

[Khanate]

My analysis is 100% accurate, whereas yours is just denial.

You're so delusional. Its hilarious.

 

[Dean Winchester]

And you only made stuff up from the both.

On contrary it is you who went into denial mood on both.

You're so delusional. Its hilarious.

Just look in the mirror you will realize who is delusional.

 

[Hamza913]

Even a multi pronged cross bird raids are known as Surgical strikes In military definitions.
.

Well it was a failure either way as Indian troops didn't manage to kill any militants, retreated and one of their men got captured so...

 

[Khanate]

Just look in the mirror you will realize who is delusional.

I look nothing like Modi — the delusional Indiot.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Indian never gave exact locations of strike, so Pakistan took them to just a random place on LoC.
India gets no benefit from giving proof.
Also not a single journo visited those areas despite Pakistani so called offer thus showing it was a sham by Bajwa.
Even tax evaders say you can come to my house and see there is no black money

As for the 15 militants killed, it us the figure given by Indian Express which NY Times burea chief called the strongest version.

You yourself are disproving your arguments for us. Let me just reiterate as to what we know about the whole situation.

1.India claimed it carried out surgical strikes across LOC.
2. Pakistan rubbished the claim saying no such surgical strike took place.
3.Indian media proceeded to go in to fan boy mode, (assuming that they quoted military sources), they contradicted their own story atleast 16 times.
4. Neutral bodies like UNMOGIP stated that it could not directly observe the whole thing.
5.ISPR proceeded to invite international media to the claimed sites of attack, backing up their statements.
6. International media reports from the ground from sources such as CNN or AFP indicated that there were no such "surgical strikes"
7. Some contradictory information was brought to surface, by BBC however, BBC itself explicitly stated that the India version is not reliable as well.

So at this point, the only side willing to cooperate, the only side willing to give evidence, the only side open to scrutiny is Pakistan. India literally has no proof for it's claims.You can jump and argue all you want .. but the fact is Pakistan backed up it's side of the claims ... India after all the chest thumping of releasing video evidence, chickened out. I know it stings to hear that but those are the facts.


Now coming to your points.

- 2 out of 5 sites (claimed targets by Indian side) were visited by the journalists in the ISPR tour. As I've quoted the DG ISPR openly offered to take the journalists to any site of their choosing. Yet it's a "sham" .. Get real kiddo. Your side should be the last one calling another narrative a sham because when push comes to shove, your releasing evidences on ISI pigeons and camels proving their Pakistani background, yet you conduct surgical strikes and all of sudden your lost for words when your asked for evidence. All you have is deflective excuses such as " It'll do no good" ,,, LOL! Get outta here and bring some real arguments instead of emotionally driven drivel.

-Your BBC proof link explicitly questions your side of the story as well. This is why we see you shift to "Indian express" ... and like I've stated before Indian media has contradicted itself atleast 16 times while reporting this story. So in your mind, a side allowing open access to local population and the sites in question is doing a sham, while the other side that contradicts itself 16 times while reporting the same incident is totally reliable ?

-As for your NY times claim ... I could not find that statement by the Bureu chief of NY Times although I did stumble upon few other interesting things. You might wanna look.

Pointing to comments by one of the guests on the show, JD (U) spokesperson Ajay Alok, that these news outlets were questioning whether the strikes took place, Arnab said, “Who the hell is CNN and BBC? Is the Indian Army accountable to CNN and BBC? I haven’t heard anything more ridiculous.”

-Indian media's Arnab Goswami on CNN and BBC questioning Indian claims.

http://www.thenewsminute.com/articl...eports-doubting-indias-surgical-strikes-50897

"The village of Mandhole is along the banks of the Poonch River, just across the Line of Control, the de facto border between Pakistan and India in the disputed Kashmir region, which both sides claim in its entirety. Indian military posts within 500 yards are visible.

On Saturday, Mr. Rustam, 22, pointed in that direction and said the Indian troops never left their posts. “They are lying,” he said. “They never crossed the L.O.C.” A group of villagers standing nearby nodded in agreement."

"Schools have remained open. Grocery stores were serving customers, and buses moved slowly on patchy, winding roads along the hilly terrain. As the afternoon sun sank behind the hills, several women could be seen working in the fields, cutting grass and herding cattle.

Pakistan seemed eager to play down any tensions in the area. Mr. Rustam and his fellow villagers had gathered on Saturday to talk to a group of journalists who were ferried in by Pakistani military helicopters to the Bhimber District of the Pakistani-controlled part of Kashmir, about 100 miles from Islamabad, Pakistan’s capital."


NYT reporting on surgical strikes
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/02/world/asia/kashmir-pakistan-india.html?_r=0

Hell, the Indian side was officially crying and whining about International media not buying in to the Indian story. So much so that a Chief Minister and AAP national convenor of yours i.e. Arvind Kejriwal, wrote a letter to BBC, CNN and NYT to issue an apology for reporting what he termed "Pakistani propaganda". Just see this quote

“We have seen over the last two days that Pakistan is taking international journalists to the border. They are trying to show that no surgical strikes took place. Two days ago, the United Nations gave a statement that no such activity was seen at the border. Yesterday, there was a CNN report. Their reporter said the Pakistan government had taken a bus full of journalists to the border. There, they said that India had claimed surgical strikes took place here but nothing had happened. They showed that children were playing there, life was going on normally, people continued to live there, there was no evidence of any firing. My blood boiled after seeing that report. The BBC, New York Times also carried news items asking if surgical strikes had actually been carried out,” Kejriwal said in his message delivered in Hindi.
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...modi-for-surgical-strikes-uri-attack-3064176/

Conclusion:

A. India presented ZERO evidence for it's case, while Pakistan openly allowed international media and other groups free access to observe and come to their own conclusion.

B. Indian media while reporting publicly contradicted itself Sixteen times on the same event.

C. The reports by AFP. BBC, CNN and NYT question the Indian version of events.

D. The Indian side, reacted on such reports emotionally where chief ministers and media personalities acted all butt hurt and said/ implied that all these major media giants were doing "Pakistani propaganda".

E. For a country like India, which releases made up evidence, even for things such as "Pakistani ISI pigeon agents" it's quite curious that somehow the evidence of such a major event is kept from the public. Even after all the chest thumping and calls for releasing the video evidence. Nothing came to fruition.

F.This is not the first time India has made up some event in order to please the public and receive praise. Serving Indian army personnel were found guilty before of faking engagements at Siachen.

G. You say that the Indian media never released the exact points of infiltration, and Pakistan's ISPR took the reporters to random points therefore its a sham. Yet somehow when you quote BBC as "proof" you forget that they didn't know the exact points of infiltration either. So how is one international media organization acceptable based on that argument, while others are a sham?

H. A surgical strike in its basic definition, is an attack which results in damaging the intended military target while minimizing the collateral damage. As per the Indian DGMO, the military target was the "terrorist and their hideouts". Based on your BBC link which you use as a "proof", little to no evidence of the Indian military killing any militants can be independently verified. So basically, even if you use the BBC link to say that some infiltration took place, you still can't call it a "surgical strike". The reason, why BBC questioned your version of the story altogether.

 

[Dean Winchester]

Well it was a failure either way as Indian troops didn't manage to kill any militants, retreated and one of their men got captured so...

Many militants were killed, I.E. account which NY Times burea chief called the strongest one on surgical strikes revealed (10-15) militants were killed mostly in Dundhial.

You yourself are disproving your arguments for us. Let me just reiterate as to what we know about the whole situation.

1.India claimed it carried out surgical strikes across LOC.
2. Pakistan rubbished the claim saying no such surgical strike took place.
3.Indian media proceeded to go in to fan boy mode, (assuming that they quoted military sources), they contradicted their own story atleast 16 times.
4. Neutral bodies like UNMOGIP stated that it could not directly observe the whole thing.
5.ISPR proceeded to invite international media to the claimed sites of attack, backing up their statements.
6. International media reports from the ground from sources such as CNN or AFP indicated that there were no such "surgical strikes"
7. Some contradictory information was brought to surface, by BBC however, BBC itself explicitly stated that the India version is not reliable as well.

So at this point, the only side willing to cooperate, the only side willing to give evidence, the only side open to scrutiny is Pakistan. India literally has no proof for it's claims.You can jump and argue all you want .. but the fact is Pakistan backed up it's side of the claims ... India after all the chest thumping of releasing video evidence, chickened out. I know it stings to hear that but those are the facts.


Now coming to your points.

- 2 out of 5 sites (claimed targets by Indian side) were visited by the journalists in the ISPR tour. As I've quoted the DG ISPR openly offered to take the journalists to any site of their choosing. Yet it's a "sham" .. Get real kiddo. Your side should be the last one calling another narrative a sham because when push comes to shove, your releasing evidences on ISI pigeons and camels proving their Pakistani background, yet you conduct surgical strikes and all of sudden your lost for words when your asked for evidence. All you have is deflective excuses such as " It'll do no good" ,,, LOL! Get outta here and bring some real arguments instead of emotionally driven drivel.

-Your BBC proof link explicitly questions your side of the story as well. This is why we see you shift to "Indian express" ... and like I've stated before Indian media has contradicted itself atleast 16 times while reporting this story. So in your mind, a side allowing open access to local population and the sites in question is doing a sham, while the other side that contradicts itself 16 times while reporting the same incident is totally reliable ?

-As for your NY times claim ... I could not find that statement by the Bureu chief of NY Times although I did stumble upon few other interesting things. You might wanna look.





Hell, the Indian side was officially crying and whining about International media not buying in to the Indian story. So much so that a Chief Minister and AAP national convenor of yours i.e. Arvind Kejriwal, wrote a letter to BBC, CNN and NYT to issue an apology for reporting what he termed "Pakistani propaganda". Just see this quote




Conclusion:

A. India presented ZERO evidence for it's case, while Pakistan openly allowed international media and other groups free access to observe and come to their own conclusion.

B. Indian media while reporting publicly contradicted itself Sixteen times on the same event.

C. The reports by AFP. BBC, CNN and NYT question the Indian version of events.

D. The Indian side, reacted on such reports emotionally where chief ministers and media personalities acted all butt hurt and said/ implied that all these major media giants were doing "Pakistani propaganda".

E. For a country like India, which releases made up evidence, even for things such as "Pakistani ISI pigeon agents" it's quite curious that somehow the evidence of such a major event is kept from the public. Even after all the chest thumping and calls for releasing the video evidence. Nothing came to fruition.

F.This is not the first time India has made up some event in order to please the public and receive praise. Serving Indian army personnel were found guilty before of faking engagements at Siachen.

G. You say that the Indian media never released the exact points of infiltration, and Pakistan's ISPR took the reporters to random points therefore its a sham. Yet somehow when you quote BBC as "proof" you forget that they didn't know the exact points of infiltration either. So how is one international media organization acceptable based on that argument, while others are a sham?

H. A surgical strike in its basic definition, is an attack which results in damaging the intended military target while minimizing the collateral damage. As per the Indian DGMO, the military target was the "terrorist and their hideouts". Based on your BBC link which you use as a "proof", little to no evidence of the Indian military killing any militants can be independently verified. So basically, even if you use the BBC link to say that some infiltration took place, you still can't call it a "surgical strike". The reason, why BBC questioned your version of the story altogether.

-ISPR has zero credibility.
-ISPR guided tours.inc took journoS only to a general area in Leepa valley and not to chalhana or Dundhial or al Haawi bridge where all action took place.
-Not a single journalist was taken by ISPR to any of those sites.
-No international media report ever said that they were no surgical strikes all they said was Pakistan claimed there was none whereas INdia claimed opposite.
-UNMOGIP has only 50 men stationed in just two cities so they are obviously in no position to observe anything.
-BBC never said that Indian version it said truth is in the middle to which I agree as India media claimed 50-60 militants killed actual number is around 15.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Many militants were killed, I.E. account which NY Times burea chief called the strongest one on surgical strikes revealed (10-15) militants were killed mostly in Dundhial.
-ISPR has zero credibility.
-ISPR guided tours.inc took journoS only to a general area in Leepa valley and not to chalhana or Dundhial or al Haawi bridge where all action took place.
-Not a single journalist was taken by ISPR to any of those sites.
-No international media report ever said that they were no surgical strikes all they said was Pakistan claimed there was none whereas INdia claimed opposite.
-UNMOGIP has only 50 men stationed in just two cities so they are obviously in no position to observe anything.
-BBC never said that Indian version it said truth is in the middle to which I agree as India media claimed 50-60 militants killed actual number is around 15.

You never answered any of the questions / statements that I posted. The fact that you have no case is self evident for anyone who sees your post, and your just sticking to your usual run in a circle arguments which have been dissected again and again ... So let me end by asking you some questions ...

• If ISPR has no evidence and has zero credibility, why is India so butt hurt that a chief minister is writing to NYT, CNN or BBC and demanding apologies for reporting ? After all, the fact that their reports agree more with our version should be enough to prove that the claims have no credibility whatsoever.. right?
• What is your proof that not a single journalist was taken to the claimed sites ? CNN, NYT , Reuters, and AFP all claim to have been taken to two of the claimed sites and talked to the local population and reported their findings. What is your evidence to the contrary?
• The BBC link you touted CLAIMED exactly that. It said " Despite the claims in the Indian media, the BBC could find little evidence that militants had been hit." . If there were no militants hit, then sorry to break it to ya, the incident would not be a "surgical strike" to begin with. Or are you saying that BBC is lying even though your using it as a "proof"?
• BBC completely ripped your claim of surgical strike apart. You say you believe 15 militants were killed. BBC says it found no evidence of that . Or are you saying your emotionally driven beliefs are more credible than the BBC which ironically enough you first posed as "proof" ?
• Do you have the quotation of the NYtimes bureau chief explicitly calling your version the "strongest" ? If so, can you provide it?
• If NYTimes officially believes the Indian version of events, why is that there is a report by NYTimes in which they interview locals and cast doubt over your version of events? A report after which your chief minister Arjind Kejrival wrote a letter demanding an apology from the NYT ?
• Lastly, do you have ANY EVIDENCE, to support the claim that a surgical strike took place (Independent or credible video evidence given by the military) ? No .. Thats what I thought .. Have a nice day child.

 

[Side-Winder]

@Dean Winchester - Hate to get into this - but you have no idea what you're talking about. Niether does BBC article prove anything like you believe nor is there any real evidence anywhere.

Bursting your bubble right here, ISPR threw a choice to the jounalists LIVE ON TV, about ANY location they wanted to visit as per claims by indian media. Rest we all know what happened.

Now what has your DG presented? Just a damn statement and disappeared. Deliberately letting your media make stories, all contradicting each other.

Get over it son! get back here the day you get something solid. We will all here be waiting.
because so far, all you guys have done has further embarassed you, from making fake recordings of IG AJK to posting dead pictures of TTP killed by pakistan army as your proof of Sir jee kal strikes.

 

[Hamza913]

Many militants were killed, I.E. account which NY Times burea chief called the strongest one on surgical strikes revealed (10-15) militants were killed mostly in Dundhial

Not a single militant was touched. You can say whatever you want, but the fact is you have no proof where as we do as the locals, militant groups, army and new agencies who actually went the site agree with us.

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

He is no Indian MP.
He is a separitist MLA and has ben in prison many times.
Also ISPR took them to General areasand not to any areas where the attack took place.

.

ISPR gave a chopper to them and offered to take them anywhere they want to go live on media. It was international media so you can't say that media and ISPR were collaborating.

 

[Dean Winchester]

You never answered any of the questions / statements that I posted. The fact that you have no case is self evident for anyone who sees your post, and your just sticking to your usual run in a circle arguments which have been dissected again and again ... So let me end by asking you some questions ...

• If ISPR has no evidence and has zero credibility, why is India so butt hurt that a chief minister is writing to NYT, CNN or BBC and demanding apologies for reporting ? After all, the fact that their reports agree more with our version should be enough to prove that the claims have no credibility whatsoever.. right?
• What is your proof that not a single journalist was taken to the claimed sites ? CNN, NYT , Reuters, and AFP all claim to have been taken to two of the claimed sites and talked to the local population and reported their findings. What is your evidence to the contrary?
• The BBC link you touted CLAIMED exactly that. It said " Despite the claims in the Indian media, the BBC could find little evidence that militants had been hit." . If there were no militants hit, then sorry to break it to ya, the incident would not be a "surgical strike" to begin with. Or are you saying that BBC is lying even though your using it as a "proof"?
• BBC completely ripped your claim of surgical strike apart. You say you believe 15 militants were killed. BBC says it found no evidence of that . Or are you saying your emotionally driven beliefs are more credible than the BBC which ironically enough you first posed as "proof" ?
• Do you have the quotation of the NYtimes bureau chief explicitly calling your version the "strongest" ? If so, can you provide it?
• If NYTimes officially believes the Indian version of events, why is that there is a report by NYTimes in which they interview locals and cast doubt over your version of events? A report after which your chief minister Arjind Kejrival wrote a letter demanding an apology from the NYT ?
• Lastly, do you have ANY EVIDENCE, to support the claim that a surgical strike took place (Independent or credible video evidence given by the military) ? No .. Thats what I thought .. Have a nice day child.

Kejriwal is an opposition party member.Of course he is going to criticize and spin facts.

All media interviews were in Leepa valley where not much action took place.
Most fighting was in Dundhial and Chalhana as well as Al Haawi.

ISPR gave a chopper to them and offered to take them anywhere they want to go live on media. It was international media so you can't say that media and ISPR were collaborating.

The fact that no media actually went in the end shows ISPR offer was a sham.
A theif also says you can come into my house and you will find no stolen goods

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

The fact that no media actually went in the end shows ISPR offer was a sham.

And no international media reported the ISPR fraud is a slap on everyone face who is defending a mere speech.
Also they went to many places on border including villages which Indians said were hit.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Kejriwal is an opposition party member.Of course he is going to criticize and spin facts.

All media interviews were in Leepa valley where not much action took place.
Most fighting was in Dundhial and Chalhana as well as Al Haawi.


The fact that no media actually went in the end shows ISPR offer was a sham.
A theif also says you can come into my house and you will find no stolen goods

So Kejriwal spun facts? You mean when he said he absolutely believed that India had conducted surgical strikes .. he was spinning facts?

Even your BBC link which you've been masquerading as proof --- while covering the whole story, especially detailed the incidents at the Leepa Valley ... Does that mean BBC report was a sham too since ISPR taking reporters to the Leepa valley as per you was a sham?

Secondly, do you have any proof that most of the action took place in the sites that you claim, because as per you ... Indian military released nothing, ISPR only took the journalists to Leepa and bhimber areas ... so do you have any evidence backing your claim of "most action took place in XYZ?"

Again ... Making poor unrelated analogies and poorly backed up arguments won't prove anything. Evidence will. Evidence which your side DOES NOT have ... If you do .. bring it on ...