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From Arabization to Turkfication Ertugrul and Pakistani Nationalism

i am not arab i am ethnically indian and i have no qualms about it
but i will expose your hateful rhetoric wherever i see it

first source was:
Concise Encyclopedia Of World History By Carlos Ramirez-Faria

and here is another just to double down on my points

View attachment 637141

The Arabs in Antiquity: Their History from the Assyrians to the Umayyads By Jan Retso
Mesopotamian Arabs are natives who have culturally been Arabized after the Islamic conquest and conversion. Much like how Jamaican speak English and are Christian but their genetics exposes them to be Africans that were enslaved by English.

This fact is borne out by the genetic studies which show Mesoptamian Arabs to be most closely related to other Iraqi populations like Kurds, Chaldeans, Iranian, South Eastern Turks and Lebanese. That is most Iraqi Arabs are closer to these Near Eastern populations then they are to Arab proper from peninsula or modern Saudia Arabia and Yemen. This actiually does not need a genetic study as I have met many Iraqi Arabs they look exactly like Kurds, Iranians, Lebanese and Turks. Not at all like your typical Saudi or Yemeni.

Iraqi Mesopotamian Arabs are more genetically related to other non-Arab populations in the region such as Assyrians, Kurds, Iranians and Turks, as well as Levantines, than they are to Arabs of the Arabian peninsula.[39] There are also significant differences in genetics between Mesopotamian Arabs compared to Arabs from Arabia and from countries like Saudi Arabia and Yemen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqis

And if you have time read this genetic study on PLOS.

A glimpse at the intricate mosaic of ethnicities from Mesopotamia: Paternal lineages of the Northern Iraqi Arabs, Kurds, Syriacs, Turkmens and Yazidis

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0187408
 
There is generally fear in bigger circles that Pakistan should not tie it's history with great Islamic History of past and successful Civilizations but they should only focus on the dark period of occupation under British Private Company's control over region.

The fear normally gets triggered every time Pakistani Show their love for Turkish people and Turkey , or anyone talks about even earlier times

There is generally a Fear in many people's minds about Turkey's status in world and they fear it's popularity

The British Rule still benefited Pakistan in certain situation such as Infrastructure improvements however it was not necessarily the greatest time for people in region

However from Charismatic , point of view Turkish people and history is very rich and it is very difficult not to be impressed with their contribution to world culture as whole

a) Music
b) Architecture
c) Living Standard
d) Education / Scientific work


Nationalism without action means a bogus lullaby , Nationalism means 99% people pay taxes and also do things like buy more from local companies , keep their homes , streets, neighborhood crystal clean

Nationalism in Pakistan is very soft jello

Nationalism can't be use as an excuse to not be appreciative of History of Great Turkey or past Islamic civilizations
 
Last edited:
We aren't 'ashamed' or whatever----we just don't care about who our ancestors were in the past in terms whether Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh etc.

For us, the only relevant part of our spiritual/religious history is that we became Muslims Alhamdulillah. Everything else is irrelevant. In my travels to some parts of Muslim world (incl. Turkey)---I have found similar attitude among all sorts of Muslims. We don't give a shit about our non-Muslim past in terms of religious identity.

On internet, people tend to be hyper-nationalist or whatever lmao. IRL, things are different. I'm sure just like Pakistanis, most Turks don't really care about 'Tengrisim' or whatever either



Yeah, but Pakistanis haven't seen other Turkish actresses or shows as much as Ertugrul...so she's the one whos famous right now.

Ps, I find Esra far more prettier than some blonde Turkish actresses I've seen lol.

Honestly Alhamduliah my brother.
 
I dont think Pakistanis are ashamed of their buddhist past. But Pakistanis dont like any association with Hindus.

I understand them to be honest If I had hindu ancestors I would be ashamed of it.

Pakistanis themselves feel no association with Hindus or Hinduism. Given the context they are right. Hinduism is the worst religion in the world and their followers are the worst they smell and are dirty.

They worship cows, they drink cow piss also have cow shit festivals.

To Pakistanis, Hindus are basically uncivilised. Lets not forget how Hindus burn their widows.

Yes, you are right brother.

Also, when our ancestors became Muslim through Sufi sheiks, Hindus were very violent and unsympathetic. Regular attacks on Muslim settlements and even armed conflict was common. Brother would kill brother, father would murder his son, etc. It was a very bloody period of our history.

In my region of Punjab, it was the most bloody. My ancestors also did not convert until the end of the Mughal era. I wouldn't call them Hindu, because they followed an older Iranic pagan religion. It was much different, more akin to Sikhism, because Sikhs borrowed from it later. That hate an animosity lives on, mostly from Non-Muslim side.

Basically in recent times, it is kind of a traumatic memory, similar to Greek-Turkish war was for Turks in the Balkans and Greece.

1 million of our people were murdered by Hindus/Sikhs in 1947, 14 million had to flee our homes as refugees. My ancestors were part of them, and we left majority Muslim regions in Punjab (7 in total) whom British callously gave to India.

one thing i cannot understand why esra bilgic is famous among Pakistani people? she is not even a good actress and never became famous in Turkey..https://www.instagram.com/esbilgic/?hl=en

The best actress is Seljan, Didem Balçın.

_112260725_c155764b-c4e0-457e-ae99-4994822e9f43.jpg


Ertugrul's best actors are villains. I also love Murat Garipağaoğlu who plays Emir Sadettin Köpek.

57188cd818c773696ce530c9.png
 
Yes, you are right brother.

Also, when our ancestors became Muslim through Sufi sheiks, Hindus were very violent and unsympathetic. Regular attacks on Muslim settlements and even armed conflict was common. Brother would kill brother, father would murder his son, etc. It was a very bloody period of our history.

In my region of Punjab, it was the most bloody. My ancestors also did not convert until the end of the Mughal era. I wouldn't call them Hindu, because they followed an older Iranic pagan religion. It was much different, more akin to Sikhism, because Sikhs borrowed from it later. That hate an animosity lives on, mostly from Non-Muslim side.

Basically in recent times, it is kind of a traumatic memory, similar to Greek-Turkish war was for Turks in the Balkans and Greece.

1 million of our people were murdered by Hindus/Sikhs in 1947, 14 million had to flee our homes as refugees. My ancestors were part of them, and we left majority Muslim regions in Punjab (7 in total) whom British callously gave to India.



The best actress is Seljan, Didem Balçın.

_112260725_c155764b-c4e0-457e-ae99-4994822e9f43.jpg


Ertugrul's best actors are villains. I also love Murat Garipağaoğlu who plays Emir Sadettin Köpek.

57188cd818c773696ce530c9.png

Sad how so many Muslims died at those times many Muslims around the world dont even know what happened in Pakistan with the whole partition thing.

Seriously Turkey and Pakistan have always been safe havens where Muslims could practice their religion with honour.

My grandmothers side comes from Bulgaria she is a Bulgarian Turk when they migrated to Turkey her parents kissed the soil.

Turkey for a lot of oppressed Muslim Turks was the american dream instead of money it was living free from oppression.

Pakistan was same thing for many Muslims in the subcontient a place where you practice your religion and not be oppressed.
 
Sad how so many Muslims died at those times many Muslims around the world dont even know what happened in Pakistan with the whole partition thing.

Seriously Turkey and Pakistan have always been safe havens where Muslims could practice their religion with honour.

My grandmothers side comes from Bulgaria she is a Bulgarian Turk when they migrated to Turkey her parents kissed the soil.

Turkey for a lot of oppressed Muslim Turks was the american dream instead of money it was living free from oppression.

Pakistan was same thing for many Muslims in the subcontient a place where you practice your religion and not be oppressed.

I know brother, I have read indepth about your history and I can appreciate the parallels which Pakistanis went through.

I also find the religious ideology of Turks very interesting as it coincides exactly with that of Pakistanis (and Afghans.) We are also very much indebted to Sufi sheikhs and preachers for teaching us Islam. We also have the history of Ghazis and sacred holy warriors. Our elite type of warrior were called Ghulams, loyal only to the ruler and also a religious movement, they were similar to Janissaries of Ottoman Empires. There are so many parallels. Where to begin. Poetry, literature, mazhab, food, history, modern history, heroes, founders, etc.

On my maternal side, I do have Ozbek bloodline too, but somehow these fake Pakistanis will say I have zero relations to Turks. :lol:

They think Turks came to Pakistan and vanished into thin air.
 
Reading this you could easily interpose "Pakistani-Muslim cultural identity".

An Egyptian, and an Arab

Baher Ibrahim
Egyptians should see their Arabic heritage as a source of pride, even if they don't see themselves as wholly Arab
Thu 8 Jul 2010 08.00 BST First published on Thu 8 Jul 2010 08.00 BST

Shares
84

Comments
62


Egypt is an Arab country. At least it's assumed to be. This may seem rather obvious, given that its official name is the Arab Republic of Egypt, it is a member of the Arab League and its people speak Arabic. To an outsider, Egypt is in fact an Arab country.

The reality on the ground, though, is slightly different. Many Egyptians prefer to call themselves Egyptians and some shun the Arab label completely.

The most adamant "Egyptian, not Arab" camp are the Christian Copts. In a region that is overwhelmingly Muslim, the terms Arab and Muslim have become almost synonymous, despite the presence of large numbers of Christians in several countries.

Most of Egypt's Copts maintain that they are the purest bloodline to have descended from the ancient Egyptians. As one Coptic friend tells me: "I maintain that I'm not an Arab. I'm an Egyptian and of pharaonic descent. The only thing that ties me to the Arabs is the Arabic language."

Studies on modern Egyptian DNA support the view that neither Egyptian Muslims nor Copts are Arab. All the invasions that Egypt has experienced over millennia, including the Arab invasion, do not seem to account for more than 15% of modern Egyptians' ancestry.

So Egyptians are not genetically Arabs, but they may be so culturally and linguistically. This was once true, especially during the post-revolution years when Nasser's dreams of pan-Arabism were very much alive. Back then, Egypt was so Arab that "Egypt" was dropped in favour of the "United Arab Republic".

Today, though, the Arab identity of Egypt has begun to subside among some Egyptian Muslims too. This is particularly evident among the younger generation. In everyday conversation, the term "Arabs" is used to refer to inhabitants of the Gulf states.

Many Egyptians maintain a distinct Egyptian identity, and a strong sense of nationalism and patriotism can be noticed even in casual conversation. Even those in the poorest of circumstances cannot help feeling a sense of superiority over their neighbours across the Red Sea.

"We have thousands of years of history, culture and civilisation. They have nothing but oil barrels. Were it not for oil, they'd still be living in tents," is a commonly expressed sentiment– although it doesn't stop Egyptians from temporarily migrating to the Gulf in search of a better life. And, judging from thousands of forum posts I've read on the internet, the feelings of disdain are mutual. Many Egyptians also prefer to dissociate themselves from the term "Arab" because they feel it has become equated with terrorism following 9/11.

Egyptian anti-Arab sentiments are only further intensified by a sense of frustration and anger at the poor treatment some Egyptian migrant workers receive in the Gulf states at the hands of their "Arab brothers". Many Egyptians I know who have worked in neighbouring countries always felt they were disliked and their presence resented. This isn't confined to the Gulf countries, either. An Egyptian friend of mine who grew up in Libya feels the same way.

Whether real or imagined, these feelings have only accelerated a sense of animosity to the "Arab brothers" among Egyptians, fuelling a resurgence in Egyptian nationalism while the media and government maintain the official position that we're all Arab brothers. The school history curriculum focuses disproportionately on Islamic and Arab history, with little or no focus on Christian Egypt. This doesn't do justice to Egypt's rich history, and produces Egyptians who know very little about the periods between pharaonic Egypt and the arrival of the Arabs.

The anti-Arab dialogue reached its peak last November, during what came to be known as the Egypt-Algeria football feud, after Algeria beat Egypt in a playoff match in Sudan, thereby destroying Egypt's World Cup aspirations.

A media war ensued, with each country ridiculing and attacking each other's symbols. Many Egyptians even expressed a desire to break all diplomatic ties with Algeria.

In retrospect, a football match was a trivial, pathetic excuse for all the media hype which has since died down, but the effects have lingered. Egyptians set up Facebook groups called "I'm Egyptian, not Arab" – a position until recently associated mainly with Copts. Another Facebook campaign called "I'm Egyptian, who are you?" sought to instil a long-lost sense of pride in being Egyptian first and foremost.

As the official media continues to maintain the official line that we're all Arab brothers, a massive online campaign is raging through the blogosphere to assert Egypt's Egyptian, pharaonic, non-Arab identity. The most vocal of these has been the blogger who calls himself Hassan El Helali, with the rather peculiar slogan "Not Arab, not Muslim, not Christian. Egypt is Egyptian". His blog, "Hegabs, nekabs and other trash", is dedicated to what he sees as the progressive Saudisation of Egypt, which started in the 1970s and 1980s with the return of migrant workers from the Gulf.

While the desire to return to a pure pharaonic identity may be a very romantic idea, it would seem rather futile to try to turn back the clock. Egypt has been speaking Arabic for centuries and will continue to share its borders with surrounding Arab countries. Rather, Egyptians need to take pride in their Arabic heritage, since it happens to be a component of Egyptian heritage. Egyptian Arabic has become a language in its own right, instantly recognisable in any other Arab state. The only Arabic-writing novelist to win a Nobel prize for literature was an Egyptian. Egyptians must see their Arabic heritage as a source of pride, even if they don't see themselves as Arabs.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jul/08/egyptian-arab-cultural-identity

@Joe Shearer @Salmanov @OsmanAli98 @Taimur Khurram @Kabira @PAKISTANFOREVER @Nilgiri
 
Reading this you could easily interpose "Pakistani-Muslim cultural identity".

An Egyptian, and an Arab

Baher Ibrahim
Egyptians should see their Arabic heritage as a source of pride, even if they don't see themselves as wholly Arab
Thu 8 Jul 2010 08.00 BST First published on Thu 8 Jul 2010 08.00 BST

Shares
84

Comments
62


Egypt is an Arab country. At least it's assumed to be. This may seem rather obvious, given that its official name is the Arab Republic of Egypt, it is a member of the Arab League and its people speak Arabic. To an outsider, Egypt is in fact an Arab country.

The reality on the ground, though, is slightly different. Many Egyptians prefer to call themselves Egyptians and some shun the Arab label completely.

The most adamant "Egyptian, not Arab" camp are the Christian Copts. In a region that is overwhelmingly Muslim, the terms Arab and Muslim have become almost synonymous, despite the presence of large numbers of Christians in several countries.

Most of Egypt's Copts maintain that they are the purest bloodline to have descended from the ancient Egyptians. As one Coptic friend tells me: "I maintain that I'm not an Arab. I'm an Egyptian and of pharaonic descent. The only thing that ties me to the Arabs is the Arabic language."

Studies on modern Egyptian DNA support the view that neither Egyptian Muslims nor Copts are Arab. All the invasions that Egypt has experienced over millennia, including the Arab invasion, do not seem to account for more than 15% of modern Egyptians' ancestry.

So Egyptians are not genetically Arabs, but they may be so culturally and linguistically. This was once true, especially during the post-revolution years when Nasser's dreams of pan-Arabism were very much alive. Back then, Egypt was so Arab that "Egypt" was dropped in favour of the "United Arab Republic".

Today, though, the Arab identity of Egypt has begun to subside among some Egyptian Muslims too. This is particularly evident among the younger generation. In everyday conversation, the term "Arabs" is used to refer to inhabitants of the Gulf states.

Many Egyptians maintain a distinct Egyptian identity, and a strong sense of nationalism and patriotism can be noticed even in casual conversation. Even those in the poorest of circumstances cannot help feeling a sense of superiority over their neighbours across the Red Sea.

"We have thousands of years of history, culture and civilisation. They have nothing but oil barrels. Were it not for oil, they'd still be living in tents," is a commonly expressed sentiment– although it doesn't stop Egyptians from temporarily migrating to the Gulf in search of a better life. And, judging from thousands of forum posts I've read on the internet, the feelings of disdain are mutual. Many Egyptians also prefer to dissociate themselves from the term "Arab" because they feel it has become equated with terrorism following 9/11.

Egyptian anti-Arab sentiments are only further intensified by a sense of frustration and anger at the poor treatment some Egyptian migrant workers receive in the Gulf states at the hands of their "Arab brothers". Many Egyptians I know who have worked in neighbouring countries always felt they were disliked and their presence resented. This isn't confined to the Gulf countries, either. An Egyptian friend of mine who grew up in Libya feels the same way.

Whether real or imagined, these feelings have only accelerated a sense of animosity to the "Arab brothers" among Egyptians, fuelling a resurgence in Egyptian nationalism while the media and government maintain the official position that we're all Arab brothers. The school history curriculum focuses disproportionately on Islamic and Arab history, with little or no focus on Christian Egypt. This doesn't do justice to Egypt's rich history, and produces Egyptians who know very little about the periods between pharaonic Egypt and the arrival of the Arabs.

The anti-Arab dialogue reached its peak last November, during what came to be known as the Egypt-Algeria football feud, after Algeria beat Egypt in a playoff match in Sudan, thereby destroying Egypt's World Cup aspirations.

A media war ensued, with each country ridiculing and attacking each other's symbols. Many Egyptians even expressed a desire to break all diplomatic ties with Algeria.

In retrospect, a football match was a trivial, pathetic excuse for all the media hype which has since died down, but the effects have lingered. Egyptians set up Facebook groups called "I'm Egyptian, not Arab" – a position until recently associated mainly with Copts. Another Facebook campaign called "I'm Egyptian, who are you?" sought to instil a long-lost sense of pride in being Egyptian first and foremost.

As the official media continues to maintain the official line that we're all Arab brothers, a massive online campaign is raging through the blogosphere to assert Egypt's Egyptian, pharaonic, non-Arab identity. The most vocal of these has been the blogger who calls himself Hassan El Helali, with the rather peculiar slogan "Not Arab, not Muslim, not Christian. Egypt is Egyptian". His blog, "Hegabs, nekabs and other trash", is dedicated to what he sees as the progressive Saudisation of Egypt, which started in the 1970s and 1980s with the return of migrant workers from the Gulf.

While the desire to return to a pure pharaonic identity may be a very romantic idea, it would seem rather futile to try to turn back the clock. Egypt has been speaking Arabic for centuries and will continue to share its borders with surrounding Arab countries. Rather, Egyptians need to take pride in their Arabic heritage, since it happens to be a component of Egyptian heritage. Egyptian Arabic has become a language in its own right, instantly recognisable in any other Arab state. The only Arabic-writing novelist to win a Nobel prize for literature was an Egyptian. Egyptians must see their Arabic heritage as a source of pride, even if they don't see themselves as Arabs.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jul/08/egyptian-arab-cultural-identity

@Joe Shearer @Salmanov @OsmanAli98 @Taimur Khurram @Kabira @PAKISTANFOREVER @Nilgiri




Another indicator of how racial identity is so powerful and supersedes religion. What the Egyptians are now doing is something that Pakistanis need to emulate.
 
Reading this you could easily interpose "Pakistani-Muslim cultural identity".

An Egyptian, and an Arab

Baher Ibrahim
Egyptians should see their Arabic heritage as a source of pride, even if they don't see themselves as wholly Arab
Thu 8 Jul 2010 08.00 BST First published on Thu 8 Jul 2010 08.00 BST

Shares
84

Comments
62


Egypt is an Arab country. At least it's assumed to be. This may seem rather obvious, given that its official name is the Arab Republic of Egypt, it is a member of the Arab League and its people speak Arabic. To an outsider, Egypt is in fact an Arab country.

The reality on the ground, though, is slightly different. Many Egyptians prefer to call themselves Egyptians and some shun the Arab label completely.

The most adamant "Egyptian, not Arab" camp are the Christian Copts. In a region that is overwhelmingly Muslim, the terms Arab and Muslim have become almost synonymous, despite the presence of large numbers of Christians in several countries.

Most of Egypt's Copts maintain that they are the purest bloodline to have descended from the ancient Egyptians. As one Coptic friend tells me: "I maintain that I'm not an Arab. I'm an Egyptian and of pharaonic descent. The only thing that ties me to the Arabs is the Arabic language."

Studies on modern Egyptian DNA support the view that neither Egyptian Muslims nor Copts are Arab. All the invasions that Egypt has experienced over millennia, including the Arab invasion, do not seem to account for more than 15% of modern Egyptians' ancestry.

So Egyptians are not genetically Arabs, but they may be so culturally and linguistically. This was once true, especially during the post-revolution years when Nasser's dreams of pan-Arabism were very much alive. Back then, Egypt was so Arab that "Egypt" was dropped in favour of the "United Arab Republic".

Today, though, the Arab identity of Egypt has begun to subside among some Egyptian Muslims too. This is particularly evident among the younger generation. In everyday conversation, the term "Arabs" is used to refer to inhabitants of the Gulf states.

Many Egyptians maintain a distinct Egyptian identity, and a strong sense of nationalism and patriotism can be noticed even in casual conversation. Even those in the poorest of circumstances cannot help feeling a sense of superiority over their neighbours across the Red Sea.

"We have thousands of years of history, culture and civilisation. They have nothing but oil barrels. Were it not for oil, they'd still be living in tents," is a commonly expressed sentiment– although it doesn't stop Egyptians from temporarily migrating to the Gulf in search of a better life. And, judging from thousands of forum posts I've read on the internet, the feelings of disdain are mutual. Many Egyptians also prefer to dissociate themselves from the term "Arab" because they feel it has become equated with terrorism following 9/11.

Egyptian anti-Arab sentiments are only further intensified by a sense of frustration and anger at the poor treatment some Egyptian migrant workers receive in the Gulf states at the hands of their "Arab brothers". Many Egyptians I know who have worked in neighbouring countries always felt they were disliked and their presence resented. This isn't confined to the Gulf countries, either. An Egyptian friend of mine who grew up in Libya feels the same way.

Whether real or imagined, these feelings have only accelerated a sense of animosity to the "Arab brothers" among Egyptians, fuelling a resurgence in Egyptian nationalism while the media and government maintain the official position that we're all Arab brothers. The school history curriculum focuses disproportionately on Islamic and Arab history, with little or no focus on Christian Egypt. This doesn't do justice to Egypt's rich history, and produces Egyptians who know very little about the periods between pharaonic Egypt and the arrival of the Arabs.

The anti-Arab dialogue reached its peak last November, during what came to be known as the Egypt-Algeria football feud, after Algeria beat Egypt in a playoff match in Sudan, thereby destroying Egypt's World Cup aspirations.

A media war ensued, with each country ridiculing and attacking each other's symbols. Many Egyptians even expressed a desire to break all diplomatic ties with Algeria.

In retrospect, a football match was a trivial, pathetic excuse for all the media hype which has since died down, but the effects have lingered. Egyptians set up Facebook groups called "I'm Egyptian, not Arab" – a position until recently associated mainly with Copts. Another Facebook campaign called "I'm Egyptian, who are you?" sought to instil a long-lost sense of pride in being Egyptian first and foremost.

As the official media continues to maintain the official line that we're all Arab brothers, a massive online campaign is raging through the blogosphere to assert Egypt's Egyptian, pharaonic, non-Arab identity. The most vocal of these has been the blogger who calls himself Hassan El Helali, with the rather peculiar slogan "Not Arab, not Muslim, not Christian. Egypt is Egyptian". His blog, "Hegabs, nekabs and other trash", is dedicated to what he sees as the progressive Saudisation of Egypt, which started in the 1970s and 1980s with the return of migrant workers from the Gulf.

While the desire to return to a pure pharaonic identity may be a very romantic idea, it would seem rather futile to try to turn back the clock. Egypt has been speaking Arabic for centuries and will continue to share its borders with surrounding Arab countries. Rather, Egyptians need to take pride in their Arabic heritage, since it happens to be a component of Egyptian heritage. Egyptian Arabic has become a language in its own right, instantly recognisable in any other Arab state. The only Arabic-writing novelist to win a Nobel prize for literature was an Egyptian. Egyptians must see their Arabic heritage as a source of pride, even if they don't see themselves as Arabs.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jul/08/egyptian-arab-cultural-identity

@Joe Shearer @Salmanov @OsmanAli98 @Taimur Khurram @Kabira @PAKISTANFOREVER @Nilgiri

The Lebanese have the same issue with they them claiming to be "Phonecians"

Another indicator of how racial identity is so powerful and supersedes religion. What the Egyptians are now doing is something that Pakistanis need to emulate.

In a way yes but Egyptians like Pakistanis are talkers they complain but dont do much
 
Another indicator of how racial identity is so powerful and supersedes religion. What the Egyptians are now doing is something that Pakistanis need to emulate.
The point being Pakistan is not exceptional. Like any people we have original genetic sub-stratum laid over by layer after layer leading to the aggregate you see today. Meaning we are NOT Indian. We are NOT Arab. We are natives of Indus that have evolved over 8,000 years of history to what you see today. That trajectory is unique. All people have their own trajectory. 95% of Indians are converts to Vedic religion. Most Iraqi's are also converts with a small % mix of Arab. Majority by blood are Mesopotamian. Even the Turks by genetics are 80% native Anatolians with some admixture from Central Asian Turks with the final product being Turkish speaking Muslim converts.
 
The Lebanese have the same issue with they them claiming to be "Phonecians"



In a way yes but Egyptians like Pakistanis are talkers they complain but dont do much


True. But as long as you plant the seed for change that is better than nothing I guess.
 
Reading this you could easily interpose "Pakistani-Muslim cultural identity".

An Egyptian, and an Arab

Baher Ibrahim
Egyptians should see their Arabic heritage as a source of pride, even if they don't see themselves as wholly Arab
Thu 8 Jul 2010 08.00 BST First published on Thu 8 Jul 2010 08.00 BST

Shares
84

Comments
62


Egypt is an Arab country. At least it's assumed to be. This may seem rather obvious, given that its official name is the Arab Republic of Egypt, it is a member of the Arab League and its people speak Arabic. To an outsider, Egypt is in fact an Arab country.

The reality on the ground, though, is slightly different. Many Egyptians prefer to call themselves Egyptians and some shun the Arab label completely.

The most adamant "Egyptian, not Arab" camp are the Christian Copts. In a region that is overwhelmingly Muslim, the terms Arab and Muslim have become almost synonymous, despite the presence of large numbers of Christians in several countries.

Most of Egypt's Copts maintain that they are the purest bloodline to have descended from the ancient Egyptians. As one Coptic friend tells me: "I maintain that I'm not an Arab. I'm an Egyptian and of pharaonic descent. The only thing that ties me to the Arabs is the Arabic language."

Studies on modern Egyptian DNA support the view that neither Egyptian Muslims nor Copts are Arab. All the invasions that Egypt has experienced over millennia, including the Arab invasion, do not seem to account for more than 15% of modern Egyptians' ancestry.

So Egyptians are not genetically Arabs, but they may be so culturally and linguistically. This was once true, especially during the post-revolution years when Nasser's dreams of pan-Arabism were very much alive. Back then, Egypt was so Arab that "Egypt" was dropped in favour of the "United Arab Republic".

Today, though, the Arab identity of Egypt has begun to subside among some Egyptian Muslims too. This is particularly evident among the younger generation. In everyday conversation, the term "Arabs" is used to refer to inhabitants of the Gulf states.

Many Egyptians maintain a distinct Egyptian identity, and a strong sense of nationalism and patriotism can be noticed even in casual conversation. Even those in the poorest of circumstances cannot help feeling a sense of superiority over their neighbours across the Red Sea.

"We have thousands of years of history, culture and civilisation. They have nothing but oil barrels. Were it not for oil, they'd still be living in tents," is a commonly expressed sentiment– although it doesn't stop Egyptians from temporarily migrating to the Gulf in search of a better life. And, judging from thousands of forum posts I've read on the internet, the feelings of disdain are mutual. Many Egyptians also prefer to dissociate themselves from the term "Arab" because they feel it has become equated with terrorism following 9/11.

Egyptian anti-Arab sentiments are only further intensified by a sense of frustration and anger at the poor treatment some Egyptian migrant workers receive in the Gulf states at the hands of their "Arab brothers". Many Egyptians I know who have worked in neighbouring countries always felt they were disliked and their presence resented. This isn't confined to the Gulf countries, either. An Egyptian friend of mine who grew up in Libya feels the same way.

Whether real or imagined, these feelings have only accelerated a sense of animosity to the "Arab brothers" among Egyptians, fuelling a resurgence in Egyptian nationalism while the media and government maintain the official position that we're all Arab brothers. The school history curriculum focuses disproportionately on Islamic and Arab history, with little or no focus on Christian Egypt. This doesn't do justice to Egypt's rich history, and produces Egyptians who know very little about the periods between pharaonic Egypt and the arrival of the Arabs.

The anti-Arab dialogue reached its peak last November, during what came to be known as the Egypt-Algeria football feud, after Algeria beat Egypt in a playoff match in Sudan, thereby destroying Egypt's World Cup aspirations.

A media war ensued, with each country ridiculing and attacking each other's symbols. Many Egyptians even expressed a desire to break all diplomatic ties with Algeria.

In retrospect, a football match was a trivial, pathetic excuse for all the media hype which has since died down, but the effects have lingered. Egyptians set up Facebook groups called "I'm Egyptian, not Arab" – a position until recently associated mainly with Copts. Another Facebook campaign called "I'm Egyptian, who are you?" sought to instil a long-lost sense of pride in being Egyptian first and foremost.

As the official media continues to maintain the official line that we're all Arab brothers, a massive online campaign is raging through the blogosphere to assert Egypt's Egyptian, pharaonic, non-Arab identity. The most vocal of these has been the blogger who calls himself Hassan El Helali, with the rather peculiar slogan "Not Arab, not Muslim, not Christian. Egypt is Egyptian". His blog, "Hegabs, nekabs and other trash", is dedicated to what he sees as the progressive Saudisation of Egypt, which started in the 1970s and 1980s with the return of migrant workers from the Gulf.

While the desire to return to a pure pharaonic identity may be a very romantic idea, it would seem rather futile to try to turn back the clock. Egypt has been speaking Arabic for centuries and will continue to share its borders with surrounding Arab countries. Rather, Egyptians need to take pride in their Arabic heritage, since it happens to be a component of Egyptian heritage. Egyptian Arabic has become a language in its own right, instantly recognisable in any other Arab state. The only Arabic-writing novelist to win a Nobel prize for literature was an Egyptian. Egyptians must see their Arabic heritage as a source of pride, even if they don't see themselves as Arabs.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jul/08/egyptian-arab-cultural-identity

@Joe Shearer @Salmanov @OsmanAli98 @Taimur Khurram @Kabira @PAKISTANFOREVER @Nilgiri

Sorry brother, but as someone who can speak Arabic and has befriended and known Egyptians my whole life, even prominent heads of Arab and Muslim organizations, your post is absolute nonsense.

Copts are a small minority and a relic of the past, similar to Parsis of Iran.

Egyptians are both Egyptian and Arab at the same time. The two identities are not mutually exclusive.

It is an off topic discussion and probably can be answered in more detail from our Arab members @Falcon29 @Amun @ArabianEmpires&Caliphates @Total Destruction

I don't know why you are tagging Indians to this discussion. Identity of Egypt has nothing to do with them.
 
Reading this you could easily interpose "Pakistani-Muslim cultural identity".

An Egyptian, and an Arab

Baher Ibrahim
Egyptians should see their Arabic heritage as a source of pride, even if they don't see themselves as wholly Arab
Thu 8 Jul 2010 08.00 BST First published on Thu 8 Jul 2010 08.00 BST

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So Egyptians are not genetically Arabs, but they may be so culturally and linguistically. This was once true, especially during the post-revolution years when Nasser's dreams of pan-Arabism were very much alive. Back then, Egypt was so Arab that "Egypt" was dropped in favour of the "United Arab Republic".

Today, though, the Arab identity of Egypt has begun to subside among some Egyptian Muslims too. This is particularly evident among the younger generation. In everyday conversation, the term "Arabs" is used to refer to inhabitants of the Gulf states.

Many Egyptians maintain a distinct Egyptian identity, and a strong sense of nationalism and patriotism can be noticed even in casual conversation. Even those in the poorest of circumstances cannot help feeling a sense of superiority over their neighbours across the Red Sea.

"We have thousands of years of history, culture and civilisation. They have nothing but oil barrels. Were it not for oil, they'd still be living in tents," is a commonly expressed sentiment– although it doesn't stop Egyptians from temporarily migrating to the Gulf in search of a better life. And, judging from thousands of forum posts I've read on the internet, the feelings of disdain are mutual. Many Egyptians also prefer to dissociate themselves from the term "Arab" because they feel it has become equated with terrorism following 9/11.

Egyptian anti-Arab sentiments are only further intensified by a sense of frustration and anger at the poor treatment some Egyptian migrant workers receive in the Gulf states at the hands of their "Arab brothers". Many Egyptians I know who have worked in neighbouring countries always felt they were disliked and their presence resented. This isn't confined to the Gulf countries, either. An Egyptian friend of mine who grew up in Libya feels the same way.


The anti-Arab dialogue reached its peak last November, during what came to be known as the Egypt-Algeria football feud, after Algeria beat Egypt in a playoff match in Sudan, thereby destroying Egypt's World Cup aspirations.

A media war ensued, with each country ridiculing and attacking each other's symbols. Many Egyptians even expressed a desire to break all diplomatic ties with Algeria.



As the official media continues to maintain the official line that we're all Arab brothers, a massive online campaign is raging through the blogosphere to assert Egypt's Egyptian, pharaonic, non-Arab identity. The most vocal of these has been the blogger who calls himself Hassan El Helali, with the rather peculiar slogan "Not Arab, not Muslim, not Christian. Egypt is Egyptian". His blog, "Hegabs, nekabs and other trash", is dedicated to what he sees as the progressive Saudisation of Egypt, which started in the 1970s and 1980s with the return of migrant workers from the Gulf.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jul/08/egyptian-arab-cultural-identity

@Joe Shearer @Salmanov @OsmanAli98 @Taimur Khurram @Kabira @PAKISTANFOREVER @Nilgiri

Yeah Sadat was a cuck for the Gulfies leading to Egypt suffering the same fate like Pakistan under Zia in the 70s and 80s "progressive Saudisation" and also leading it to be a client of the US Security Establishment

True. But as long as you plant the seed for change that is better than nothing I guess.

Its easy to be a "cyber nationalist" but in real life people are just have apathy this is the problem we face as a country Pakistanis just dont want to change many have resigned themselves to "stagnation"
 

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