forummurat
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The congratulation to Sarkozy, condemnation to us..!!!
Convey your history advice to France.. Not to me !!!
French Senate passes Armenian genocide law
- Thread starter Deno
- Start date
The congratulation to Sarkozy, condemnation to us..!!!
Convey your history advice to France.. Not to me !!!
Saithan
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I think that it would be nice if people would give their opinion / stance on freedom of speech before posting crap, or congratulatory messages.
I've seen far too often random messages of some from india/indian background who just want to throw fuel on a bonfire.
Seriously though, to me it doesn't make sense that India would back what France is doing.
I've seen far too often random messages of some from india/indian background who just want to throw fuel on a bonfire.
Seriously though, to me it doesn't make sense that India would back what France is doing.
Zarvan
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(CNN) -- The French Senate voted late Monday to criminalize any public denial of what new legislation calls the Ottoman Empire's genocide of Armenians, triggering fresh condemnation from modern Turkey.
Relations between France and Turkey have already deteriorated since the National Assembly -- the lower house of the French parliament -- voted to approve the bill in December. The Turkish government called Monday's vote "an example of irresponsibility" and vowed to "express our reaction against it in every platform."
It is already illegal in France to deny the Holocaust of World War II, a crime punishable by a year in prison and a fine of 45,000 euros ($58,500). The same punishment would be used under the Armenian legislation.
Monday night's 127-86 vote sends the legislation to French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who has indicated he would sign it. Armenia's government hailed the vote, saying France "reaffirmed its pivotal role as a genuine defender of universal human values." But Turkey, one of France's NATO allies, called it "an entirely unfortunate step for French politics."
Friction over Armenia genocide issue
"Politicization of the understanding of justice and history through other people's past and damaging freedom of expression in a tactless manner are first and foremost a loss for France," it in a statement on the vote. "It is obvious that the interpretation of historical events cannot be determined by the attitude of French politicians who see in themselves the right to judge other nations on the basis of one-sided views and declare a judgment on a serious allegation of crime such as genocide, thereby ignoring the principles of international law."
The statement added, "Turkey is determined to take every step required against this unjust action, which disregards basic human values and public conscience."
The Turkish-Armenian controversy over the killings that took place last century has reverberated wherever diaspora communities representing both groups exist. Armenian groups and many scholars argue that Turks committed genocide starting in 1915, when more than a million ethnic Armenians were massacred in the waning days of the Ottoman Empire.
Turkey officially denies that a genocide took place, saying hundreds of thousands of Armenian Christians and Turkish Muslims died in intercommunal violence around the bloody battlefields of World War I.
Before the vote, Sen. Herve Marseille, one of the bill's supporters, argued that since France already recognizes the Ottoman-era killings as genocide, the same standard that applies to Holocaust denial should apply to the Armenian case.
"When we contest the Jewish genocide, we can be punished," Marseille said. "And up until now, when we contest the Armenian genocide, there is no punishment. So we can't have a legal punishment for one and not for the other. Everyone is equal in front of the law."
But Sen. Jacques Mézard, who opposed the legislation, said freedom of expression was at stake.
"It calls into question historical and scientific research. Tomorrow will there be a question of a Vendée genocide?" he asked, referring to a revolt against the French revolutionary government in 1793. "Will we put the Spanish and the United States in the stocks for the massacre of Native Americans? We must reject this text and consign it to history books."
After December's vote in the National Assembly, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan accused France of committing its own "genocide" during its war against Algerian independence in the 1950s and 1960s. Erdogan announced that Turkey was reviewing its ties with France. Ankara recalled its ambassador to Paris for consultations, canceled bilateral visits and wouldn't cooperate with France in joint projects within the European Union.
The French Foreign Ministry shot back at Erdogan's comments, saying France "assumes with clarity and transparency its duty to remember the tragedies that have marked its history." And Sarkozy has said that his country doesn't need an OK from another nation to develop its policies.
In addition to being NATO allies, Turkey and France have trade ties valued at $13.5 billion, according to Turkish statistics.
The genocide debate is also a source of tension between Turkey and the United States, another NATO ally. The White House, for example, annually beats back efforts in Congress to pass a resolution that would formally recognize the 1915 massacre of Armenians as genocide.
Relations between France and Turkey have already deteriorated since the National Assembly -- the lower house of the French parliament -- voted to approve the bill in December. The Turkish government called Monday's vote "an example of irresponsibility" and vowed to "express our reaction against it in every platform."
It is already illegal in France to deny the Holocaust of World War II, a crime punishable by a year in prison and a fine of 45,000 euros ($58,500). The same punishment would be used under the Armenian legislation.
Monday night's 127-86 vote sends the legislation to French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who has indicated he would sign it. Armenia's government hailed the vote, saying France "reaffirmed its pivotal role as a genuine defender of universal human values." But Turkey, one of France's NATO allies, called it "an entirely unfortunate step for French politics."
Friction over Armenia genocide issue
"Politicization of the understanding of justice and history through other people's past and damaging freedom of expression in a tactless manner are first and foremost a loss for France," it in a statement on the vote. "It is obvious that the interpretation of historical events cannot be determined by the attitude of French politicians who see in themselves the right to judge other nations on the basis of one-sided views and declare a judgment on a serious allegation of crime such as genocide, thereby ignoring the principles of international law."
The statement added, "Turkey is determined to take every step required against this unjust action, which disregards basic human values and public conscience."
The Turkish-Armenian controversy over the killings that took place last century has reverberated wherever diaspora communities representing both groups exist. Armenian groups and many scholars argue that Turks committed genocide starting in 1915, when more than a million ethnic Armenians were massacred in the waning days of the Ottoman Empire.
Turkey officially denies that a genocide took place, saying hundreds of thousands of Armenian Christians and Turkish Muslims died in intercommunal violence around the bloody battlefields of World War I.
Before the vote, Sen. Herve Marseille, one of the bill's supporters, argued that since France already recognizes the Ottoman-era killings as genocide, the same standard that applies to Holocaust denial should apply to the Armenian case.
"When we contest the Jewish genocide, we can be punished," Marseille said. "And up until now, when we contest the Armenian genocide, there is no punishment. So we can't have a legal punishment for one and not for the other. Everyone is equal in front of the law."
But Sen. Jacques Mézard, who opposed the legislation, said freedom of expression was at stake.
"It calls into question historical and scientific research. Tomorrow will there be a question of a Vendée genocide?" he asked, referring to a revolt against the French revolutionary government in 1793. "Will we put the Spanish and the United States in the stocks for the massacre of Native Americans? We must reject this text and consign it to history books."
After December's vote in the National Assembly, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan accused France of committing its own "genocide" during its war against Algerian independence in the 1950s and 1960s. Erdogan announced that Turkey was reviewing its ties with France. Ankara recalled its ambassador to Paris for consultations, canceled bilateral visits and wouldn't cooperate with France in joint projects within the European Union.
The French Foreign Ministry shot back at Erdogan's comments, saying France "assumes with clarity and transparency its duty to remember the tragedies that have marked its history." And Sarkozy has said that his country doesn't need an OK from another nation to develop its policies.
In addition to being NATO allies, Turkey and France have trade ties valued at $13.5 billion, according to Turkish statistics.
The genocide debate is also a source of tension between Turkey and the United States, another NATO ally. The White House, for example, annually beats back efforts in Congress to pass a resolution that would formally recognize the 1915 massacre of Armenians as genocide.
Deno
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Did you ever heard something called sarcasm?
forummurat
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There is no armenian genocide !!
Enjoy !!
Is it Turkish coffee or French coffee from colonial Africa?
Zarvan
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(CNN) -- Turkey's fraught relationship with France is set to erode further as the French Senate passes controversial legislation that would criminalize any public denial of what the bill calls the Armenian genocide in Ottoman Turkey in 1915 -- a description Turkey has rejected.
Under the legislation, anyone denying the deaths were genocide would face a jail term and a fine of €45,000 ($58,000).
The lower house of French parliament passed the so-called Armenian genocide bill last December, prompting Turkey to recall its ambassador from Paris and to cancel certain bilateral visits between the countries. The French Senate then voted late Monday to approve the bill.
What do Armenians say allegedly happened in 1915?
Armenian groups and many scholars argue that starting in 1915, Turks committed genocide, when more than a million ethnic Armenians were massacred in the waning days of the Ottoman Empire.
The Turkish-Armenian controversy over the killings that took place last century has reverberated wherever diaspora communities representing both groups exist.
What does Turkey say happened in 1915?
Modern-day Turkey, which emerged after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, has always denied a genocide took place in 1915. It argues instead that hundreds of thousands of Armenian Christians and Muslim Turks died from intercommunal violence, disease and general chaos -- not from a specific plan to eliminate Armenians -- around the bloody battlefields of World War I.
"It has always been a sensitive issue," said Dr. Katerina Dalacoura, a lecturer in International Relations at the London School of Economics. "Turkey has always refused to accept that it was a planned event. They argue that genocide only applies if it was a plan to exterminate people."
Why is France doing this now?
France formally recognized the killings as genocide in 2001.
As there is no new information or new recognition about what the facts are about events of 1915, some experts believe French President Nicolas Sarkozy may be using the genocide bill for political gain ahead of the country's presidential election in April.
"It's clear that President Sarkozy has put this on the table for electoral reasons - there is an Armenian community in France which will of course be voting," Christian Malard, Senior Foreign Analyst at France 3 TV, told CNN on Monday.
The bill has been applauded by Armenians, roughly 500,000 of whom live in France.
The bill's author, Valeri Bouyer from Sarkozy's ruling party, has denied any political motivation.
As for Sarkozy, he has said his country doesn't need an OK from another nation to develop its policies. In a letter to the Turkish government, he said the law is not aimed at any country, but only at addressing past suffering.
What is the public opinion in Turkey regarding the Armenian massacre?
Using the word genocide when talking about Armenia may not be as taboo as it once was, but Turks still chafe at the idea of other countries writing their history, says Fadi Hakura, Turkey Analyst at Chatham House, a London-based think tank.
"Things have been progressing, but the population does not like foreign powers defining their history," he said. "It generates a lot of misgivings."
How would passage of the genocide bill affect Turkey-France relations?
Ties between the two countries could now unravel further.
Turkey already recalled its ambassador from Paris and cancelled some bilateral visits between the two countries after the French lower house passed the bill in December, and Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned "this is only the first phase."
Erdogan has also accused France of committing its own genocide during the war in Algeria in the 1950s and 1960s.
"In Algeria, an estimated 15 percent of the population had been subjected to the massacre of French from 1945 on. This is genocide," Erdogan said at a conference in Istanbul last year.
"Algerians were burnt en masse in ovens. They were martyred mercilessly. If French President Mr. (Nicolas) Sarkozy does not know about this genocide, he should ask his father Paul Sarkozy. His father Paul Sarkozy served as a soldier in the French legion in Algeria in 1940s."
Once under French colonial rule, guerrillas in the North African nation fought a bloody war against the French presence there from 1954 to 1962.
The French Foreign Ministry shot back at Erdogan's comments, saying "we deplore excessive use of formulas and personal attacks that do not meet up to the standards of our mutual interest and of our relations. France recalls that it assumes with clarity and transparency its duty to remember the tragedies that have marked its history."
Erdogan said he hoped the Senate would fail to pass the so-called Armenian genocide bill. But he warned that if it did, Turkey would initiate more measures toward France.
"This will create a lot of noise and difficulty in Turkey's overall relationships with France and other EU states that will complicate" Turkey's efforts to gain accession to the European Union, said Ross Wilson, a former U.S. ambassador to Turkey.
Turkey and France are NATO allies, and, according to official Turkish statistics, the volume of trade between Turkey and France from January to the end of October this year was more than $13.5 billion.
Do any countries recognize the killing of Armenians in Ottoman Turkey in 1915 as genocide?
Twenty countries do, including Germany, Sweden and Canada, according to Hakura.
The genocide debate is an annual source of tension between Turkey and the United States, also two NATO allies. The White House, for example, annually beats back efforts in Congress to pass a resolution which would formally recognize the 1915 massacre of Armenians as genocide.
Under the legislation, anyone denying the deaths were genocide would face a jail term and a fine of €45,000 ($58,000).
The lower house of French parliament passed the so-called Armenian genocide bill last December, prompting Turkey to recall its ambassador from Paris and to cancel certain bilateral visits between the countries. The French Senate then voted late Monday to approve the bill.
What do Armenians say allegedly happened in 1915?
Armenian groups and many scholars argue that starting in 1915, Turks committed genocide, when more than a million ethnic Armenians were massacred in the waning days of the Ottoman Empire.
The Turkish-Armenian controversy over the killings that took place last century has reverberated wherever diaspora communities representing both groups exist.
What does Turkey say happened in 1915?
Modern-day Turkey, which emerged after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, has always denied a genocide took place in 1915. It argues instead that hundreds of thousands of Armenian Christians and Muslim Turks died from intercommunal violence, disease and general chaos -- not from a specific plan to eliminate Armenians -- around the bloody battlefields of World War I.
"It has always been a sensitive issue," said Dr. Katerina Dalacoura, a lecturer in International Relations at the London School of Economics. "Turkey has always refused to accept that it was a planned event. They argue that genocide only applies if it was a plan to exterminate people."
Why is France doing this now?
France formally recognized the killings as genocide in 2001.
As there is no new information or new recognition about what the facts are about events of 1915, some experts believe French President Nicolas Sarkozy may be using the genocide bill for political gain ahead of the country's presidential election in April.
"It's clear that President Sarkozy has put this on the table for electoral reasons - there is an Armenian community in France which will of course be voting," Christian Malard, Senior Foreign Analyst at France 3 TV, told CNN on Monday.
The bill has been applauded by Armenians, roughly 500,000 of whom live in France.
The bill's author, Valeri Bouyer from Sarkozy's ruling party, has denied any political motivation.
As for Sarkozy, he has said his country doesn't need an OK from another nation to develop its policies. In a letter to the Turkish government, he said the law is not aimed at any country, but only at addressing past suffering.
What is the public opinion in Turkey regarding the Armenian massacre?
Using the word genocide when talking about Armenia may not be as taboo as it once was, but Turks still chafe at the idea of other countries writing their history, says Fadi Hakura, Turkey Analyst at Chatham House, a London-based think tank.
"Things have been progressing, but the population does not like foreign powers defining their history," he said. "It generates a lot of misgivings."
How would passage of the genocide bill affect Turkey-France relations?
Ties between the two countries could now unravel further.
Turkey already recalled its ambassador from Paris and cancelled some bilateral visits between the two countries after the French lower house passed the bill in December, and Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned "this is only the first phase."
Erdogan has also accused France of committing its own genocide during the war in Algeria in the 1950s and 1960s.
"In Algeria, an estimated 15 percent of the population had been subjected to the massacre of French from 1945 on. This is genocide," Erdogan said at a conference in Istanbul last year.
"Algerians were burnt en masse in ovens. They were martyred mercilessly. If French President Mr. (Nicolas) Sarkozy does not know about this genocide, he should ask his father Paul Sarkozy. His father Paul Sarkozy served as a soldier in the French legion in Algeria in 1940s."
Once under French colonial rule, guerrillas in the North African nation fought a bloody war against the French presence there from 1954 to 1962.
The French Foreign Ministry shot back at Erdogan's comments, saying "we deplore excessive use of formulas and personal attacks that do not meet up to the standards of our mutual interest and of our relations. France recalls that it assumes with clarity and transparency its duty to remember the tragedies that have marked its history."
Erdogan said he hoped the Senate would fail to pass the so-called Armenian genocide bill. But he warned that if it did, Turkey would initiate more measures toward France.
"This will create a lot of noise and difficulty in Turkey's overall relationships with France and other EU states that will complicate" Turkey's efforts to gain accession to the European Union, said Ross Wilson, a former U.S. ambassador to Turkey.
Turkey and France are NATO allies, and, according to official Turkish statistics, the volume of trade between Turkey and France from January to the end of October this year was more than $13.5 billion.
Do any countries recognize the killing of Armenians in Ottoman Turkey in 1915 as genocide?
Twenty countries do, including Germany, Sweden and Canada, according to Hakura.
The genocide debate is an annual source of tension between Turkey and the United States, also two NATO allies. The White House, for example, annually beats back efforts in Congress to pass a resolution which would formally recognize the 1915 massacre of Armenians as genocide.
forummurat
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Oh my enemy! You are my expression and speed..
The day needs to the night and I also needs to you..
Turkey will continiu to rise with the wind of Clown Sakozy..
Short Sakozy's capricious and complex will convert to gangrene..!
The day needs to the night and I also needs to you..
Turkey will continiu to rise with the wind of Clown Sakozy..
Short Sakozy's capricious and complex will convert to gangrene..!
![[TR]AHMET](/data/avatars/m/27/27358.jpg?1397822937){kind=avatar}
[TR]AHMET
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Good step for France we know who our enemy now well. We never incur losses for this steps we can working another nations for any matter but France?? Powerfull country to have working with us we have got strategy position and balance. knows them no problem for us.
forummurat
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third eye
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Genocides have happened be it the holocaust or the one in question or in the balkans /Rawanda and may happen in the future too.
What I do not understand is the need to make laws to establish their having happened or the resistance to the laws.
How can we ever move on if we remain stuck in the past ?
What I do not understand is the need to make laws to establish their having happened or the resistance to the laws.
How can we ever move on if we remain stuck in the past ?
Rusty
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and now France should pass a law that says that if you disagree with this, you will go to jail
lets see how many Indians be cheering them on then
TrMhMt
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Enjoy !!
Is it Turkish coffee or French coffee from colonial Africa?
Of-course it is Turkish coffee ...
all asian and african states should imeediately pass genocide laws against the french colonial genocidal campaigns in africa, asia and elsewhere especially in algeria, "french" indo china (vietnam etc.). this should include demands for compensation, criminal and war crimes trials for all concerned etc.
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