Freedom of Speech in Pakistan

[Yankee-stani]

I will scroll back later and find exactly what he said but I will say that my thinking over the last few years has arrived firmly to the simple recipe. Copy the west and be rapacious about it. No apologies. Do what every non European peoples have done who succeeded. Japan, Turkey, South Korea, Singapore, China, Taiwan, Malaysia etc

The wheel can';t be reinvented,. So what if you hate those who invented the wheel. You copy the wheel. Ypu don't have to like the doctor who cures you. Just fcukin take his medicine and advice.

"freedumb" and "demokrazy" does not feed stomachs lets be honest South Asian countries are s///tholes because of rampant media consumption and lack of control of the media by the establishment hence why the Hinduvata types in India and Rizvi types in Pakistan

 

[Yankee-stani]

MarasiMedia is National Security Threat.

PakState has become a SoftState.

Watch: Unacknowledged on Youtube.

All this hogwash about Dimmocrazy and Freedom of Expression.

Read: Manufacturing of Conset

Pakistan must focus on EconomicGrowth, Industrialisation, education and health...

Mangus Chacha you always make great points will check out the doc on YT soon exactly focus on growing the social and economic nature of the nation first social taboos and stuff can wait once the society matures

 

[Yankee-stani]

I like you kid!

It gives me joy that YoungPaks care so deeply about Pakistan even when they are abroad living better lives...

Pakistan is The Heartland.




You can call me Dada/Lala .... Chacha is sounds so young!

I try to stay optimistic but its hard the old uncles are always negative or way too positive no sense of realty I do care but I know I have lack of power and money to anything all I can do is observe,listen and read even the harsh anti Pakistan narrative but I hope for the best

 

[Yankee-stani]

Read about: Observe Effect

Chin up you, my very dear YoungPak! Life is a Bxtch... so we can only keep our chins up!

Don't let GanguFacistTrolls or DeafitistPaks in mid life crisis let bring your spirit down. PakPositive!

Remember: Love is Dead. Therefore, Long Live Dead!

Thanks I will try my best on my end but I doubt most folks in my co-horts care and will just be self-deafitists in general

 

[Psychic]

"freedumb" and "demokrazy" does not feed stomachs lets be honest South Asian countries are s///tholes because of rampant media consumption and lack of control of the media by the establishment hence why the Hinduvata types in India and Rizvi types in Pakistan

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-43489594?__twitter_impression=true
Just sayin

Freedom of speech can never be selective and it has to be differentiated from hate speech, lies and propaganda. In countries like Pakistan, absolute freedom of speech would only bring chaos and anarchy. Some checks and balances are required. Here, a media person runs a fake news and then easily escapes responsibility by just saying sorry or not even bothering to apologize at all. (Example: Hamid Mir's lie that Balochistan was forcibly annexed - he didn't even bother to issue a clarification, let alone an apology)

Go to youtube here in Pakistan without logging in and you will see that Indian movies, songs and videos are trending - all in the name of free speech, we have been slow poisoning our youth with Indian filth.

Rizvi types in Pakistan

BTW Rizvi gets no media coverage; his media coverage is banned by the state and the champions of freedom of speech have welcomed this ban - The so called champions of freedom of speech support curbs on free speech when it suits their agenda.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Freedom of speech can never be selective and it has to be differentiated from hate speech, lies and propaganda. In countries like Pakistan, absolute freedom of speech would only bring chaos and anarchy. Some checks and balances are required. Here, a media person runs a fake news and then easily escapes responsibility by just saying sorry or not even bothering to apologize at all. (Example: Hamid Mir's lie that Balochistan was forcibly annexed - he didn't even bother to issue a clarification, let alone an apology)

Controversies are not fake news. If you want to see fake news, observe what happened during IK's 2014 dharna:

1. NS has run away in a helicopter and taken away lots of gold - Mubashar Lucman @ ARY News
2. Police has killed 15/16 protesters - Mubashar Lucman @ ARY News

There was a whole campaign of fake news that propped PTI by hook or crook. It was done with impunity because media people understood that Establishment was behind IK's rise. Who would make them accountable? Not PEMRA, because PEMRA officials received threats from namaloom afrad when they justifiably wanted to ban BOL TV.

Thing is that freedom of expression is nice and dandy if it supports one's own biases, even if freedom of expression involves fake news. Few people bother with principles because a largely uneducated population reared on a security narrative and spoon-fed the need for law of necessity by beneficiaries of martial laws can not apply critical reasoning.

Go to youtube here in Pakistan without logging in and you will see that Indian movies, songs and videos are trending - all in the name of free speech, we have been slow poisoning our youth with Indian filth.

Youth has been poisoned for more than two generations, and yet here we are. Pakistan is still very much a reality and nobody thinks that this reality can be undone. I do not like Indian films & dramas, nor do I watch them. But I have seen two generations being brought up on this stuff. What difference did this make? None, as far as I can see. The people who watch such stuff waste no time in turning hyper-nationalist when the situation calls for it.

BTW Rizvi gets no media coverage; his media coverage is banned by the state and the champions of freedom of speech have welcomed this ban - The so called champions of freedom of speech support curbs on free speech when it suits their agenda.

Rizvi gets no media coverage, because he has served his purpose. Media channels were forced to air Faizabad dharna non-stop. There were calls & threats from namaloom afrad. Dawn TV held out for three days, but had to given in and they too started covering it. Once the Rizvi brand was built, used to humiliate the civilian government, dent PML-N voter-base in elections, & get crazies to attack & harass PML-N politicians, it was time to abandon it. One dharna by Rizvi last year in PTI's reign was all it took to roll up his tamasha.

I do wonder if you can actually see things happening around you. In case you do, are you able to connect the dots? A lifetime of ingesting security-centered propaganda can not but leave its mark, especially when it is willingly internalized.

In Pakistan freedom of expression means that you are free to digest a particular type of (mis)information. If you object, you are automatically termed a traitor.

 

[VCheng]

In Pakistan freedom of expression means that you are free to digest a particular type of (mis)information. If you object, you are automatically termed a traitor.

A nice summary of the situation. that applies to the country and the forum equally.

To be honest though, this does mean that such a situation is wrong in any way, if it serves the purposes for which it is designed - a particular narrative that tries to enforce a unity of thought and action to serve particular needs.

What can possibly be wrong with such an approach?

 

[Psychic]

Controversies are not fake news. If you want to see fake news, observe what happened during IK's 2014 dharna:

1. NS has run away in a helicopter and taken away lots of gold - Mubashar Lucman @ ARY News
2. Police has killed 15/16 protesters - Mubashar Lucman @ ARY News

There was a whole campaign of fake news that propped PTI by hook or crook. It was done with impunity because media people understood that Establishment was behind IK's rise. Who would make them accountable? Not PEMRA, because PEMRA officials received threats from namaloom afrad when they justifiably wanted to ban BOL TV.

Thing is that freedom of expression is nice and dandy if it supports one's own biases, even if freedom of expression involves fake news. Few people bother with principles because a largely uneducated population reared on a security narrative and spoon-fed the need for law of necessity by beneficiaries of martial laws can not apply critical reasoning.



Youth has been poisoned for more than two generations, and yet here we are. Pakistan is still very much a reality and nobody thinks that this reality can be undone. I do not like Indian films & dramas, nor do I watch them. But I have seen two generations being brought up on this stuff. What difference did this make? None, as far as I can see. The people who watch such stuff waste no time in turning hyper-nationalist when the situation calls for it.



Rizvi gets no media coverage, because he has served his purpose. Media channels were forced to air Faizabad dharna non-stop. There were calls & threats from namaloom afrad. Dawn TV held out for three days, but had to given in and they too started covering it. Once the Rizvi brand was built, used to humiliate the civilian government, dent PML-N voter-base in elections, & get crazies to attack & harass PML-N politicians, it was time to abandon it. One dharna by Rizvi last year in PTI's reign was all it took to roll up his tamasha.

I do wonder if you can actually see things happening around you. In case you do, are you able to connect the dots? A lifetime of ingesting security-centered propaganda can not but leave its mark, especially when it is willingly internalized.

In Pakistan freedom of expression means that you are free to digest a particular type of (mis)information. If you object, you are automatically termed a traitor.

Did I defend the establishment in my post? Let me make it clear that I am neither a boot-polishiya nor a hyper anti-establishment baboon. Read that post again, I never defended the establishment. Even on this forum I have posted against widespread corruption in the military, army owned enterprises, mistreatment of civilians at the hands of army officers and disasters like operation Koh-paima; but still, even if someone like me calls out the abuse of free speech, he automatically becomes a boot-polishya for the so called champions of free speech who ganged up on BOL.

I clearly stated that freedom of speech can never be selective. By selective, I mean selective in favor of any party. Just because I gave the example of Hamid Mir, you automatically assumed that I was defending the establishment ; hence, your bhashan. I only criticized freedom of speech without responsibility - be it Mubashir Lucman or Hamid Mir. Now I think I have made myself clear, unless you start assuming things again just because I said that I do not support absolute freedom of speech.

I will say that again that freedom of speech has to be distinguished from hate speech. Free speech is welcome as long as it is not propaganda, is not brewing anarchy or is not inciting violence. For me, Waqas Goraya's provocative social media posts and Molvi Mushtaq's sectarian sermons both fall under the hate speech category. I am unlike those hypocrites who protested for the immediate release of Waqas Goraya while in the same breath urged the state to suppress the "free speech" of the bearded ones. Absolute freedom of speech is no different than arming a monkey with a machinegun and letting him loose on the streets.

when they justifiably wanted to ban BOL TV.

Please make it clear whether you support absolute freedom of speech or not. If your answer is yes then you just contradicted yourself.

Youth has been poisoned for more than two generations, and yet here we are. Pakistan is still very much a reality and nobody thinks that this reality can be undone. I do not like Indian films & dramas, nor do I watch them. But I have seen two generations being brought up on this stuff. What difference did this make? None, as far as I can see. The people who watch such stuff waste no time in turning hyper-nationalist when the situation calls for it.

Disagree - I have seen these youth calling for a merger with India, declaring the creation of Pakistan a big mistake, and blaming their own country for the poor relations between the two nations.

 

[Rusty]

Honestly, at the state level I would say Pakistan is too far on the free side. Meaning that news are allowed to air and print outright lies.

The US had a similar situation in the 1800 and early 1900.
It was called Yellow Journalism

The US dealt with it using slander, libel and other laws.

Pakistan needs to do the same.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Honestly, at the state level I would say Pakistan is too far on the free side. Meaning that news are allowed to air and print outright lies.

The US had a similar situation in the 1800 and early 1900.
It was called Yellow Journalism

The US dealt with it using slander, libel and other laws.

Pakistan needs to do the same.

All the relevant laws exist. But are ineffective due to lack of application because of various interests.

In my last post, I mentioned how PEMRA staff was threatened with dire consequences when PEMRA tried to apply the relevant regulations to BOL TV. This is just one example. There are many others.

IK abused Najam Sethi by publicizing the fake '35 Punctures' story. Najam Sethi took him to court. What happened thereafter? Nothing.

The issues are systemic. Having laws is not an issue. It is about lack of application due to various interests (power, influence, economic, political, etc...). The problem is that constitutionalism & respect for law is virtually non-existent. The dominant thinking seems to be of the "ends justify the means" sort.

Did I defend the establishment in my post? Let me make it clear that I am neither a boot-polishiya nor a hyper anti-establishment baboon. Read that post again, I never defended the establishment. Even on this forum I have posted against widespread corruption in the military, army owned enterprises, mistreatment of civilians at the hands of army officers and disasters like operation Koh-paima; but still, even if someone like me calls out the abuse of free speech, he automatically becomes a boot-polishya for the so called champions of free speech who ganged up on BOL.

BOL TV violated regulations. PEMRA sent them notices to explain their conduct. The result was that namaloom afrad targeted PEMRA. There was a concerted campaign against Mr. Absar Alam that culminated in his resignation. Now GoP has demanded that he payback the salary that he received. So, I can well connect the dots and see what is going on.

I clearly stated that freedom of speech can never be selective. By selective, I mean selective in favor of any party. Just because I gave the example of Hamid Mir, you automatically assumed that I was defending the establishment ; hence, your bhashan. I only criticized freedom of speech without responsibility - be it Mubashir Lucman or Hamid Mir. Now I think I have made myself clear, unless you start assuming things again just because I said that I do not support absolute freedom of speech.

But freedom of speech is selective, & that is the problem here. There are uncountable examples. The bottom line is that whosoever is in power abuses his / her position to prevail over freedoms. Whether it is NS in 90s, Mushy in 00s or IK (read Establishment) right now, the pattern is the same.

I will say that again that freedom of speech has to be distinguished from hate speech. Free speech is welcome as long as it is not propaganda, is not brewing anarchy or is not inciting violence. For me, Waqas Goraya's provocative social media posts and Molvi Mushtaq's sectarian sermons both fall under the hate speech category. I am unlike those hypocrites who protested for the immediate release of Waqas Goraya while in the same breath urged the state to suppress the "free speech" of the bearded ones. Absolute freedom of speech is no different than arming a monkey with a machinegun and letting him loose on the streets.

Who decides what is propaganda?
Who decides what is hate speech?
See where this is going?

Please make it clear whether you support absolute freedom of speech or not. If your answer is yes then you just contradicted yourself.

As long as law & relevant regulations are adhered to, I have no problem. But the problem is that whoever rules the roost gets to control the content & also the laws. That is the problem.

Disagree - I have seen these youth calling for a merger with India, declaring the creation of Pakistan a big mistake, and blaming their own country for the poor relations between the two nations.

I do not know what content you prefer to watch, so I really do not know what to make of your statement.

 

[Nilgiri]

A very good convo here @Joe Shearer @niaz when you have a little time to peruse.

@Chak Bamu you make some very salient points that I also share deep down in my convictions, kudos sir.

 

[Chak Bamu]

@Chak Bamu you make some very salient points that I also share deep down in my convictions, kudos sir.

Dear friend, to one extent or another, most of us are dealing with populists, fascists, racists, & bigots in various governments around the world. The trend is towards authoritarianism and it must be resisted. The challenges of climate change, inequality, refugees, wars, & despotism are not going to be easily addressed. At some point Humanity must confront the challenges as a joint family. Climate change is expected to wipe out more than half the population of this world within a few decades. How would populists & despots help us confront it? How would constraints on freedom of expression help?

Threats to freedom of expression is just a global symptom, but one that can not be ignored.

 

[Joe Shearer]

A very good convo here @Joe Shearer @niaz when you have a little time to peruse.

@Chak Bamu you make some very salient points that I also share deep down in my convictions, kudos sir.

I have been a fan always. As you said, a pleasure to read, and very thought-provoking; at every stage, I found myself haunted by visions of my own country.

 

[macnurv]

Yes Pakistan is loosing Freedom of speech that is why there isnt any views critical being published in print media or voices against PTI and IK being aired. Oh wait they are still criticising him all the way to the moon and back.

 

[Nilgiri]

I have been a fan always. As you said, a pleasure to read, and very thought-provoking; at every stage, I found myself haunted by visions of my own country.

We see what we are most familiar with up close in the broader context by every country/origin/background/location of ours....and they will be ever present, its in the human psyche intrinsically.

Just the details, perspectives and relative intensities vary from place to place and context to context. Sometimes the sides doing the free speech repression seemingly* flip entirely (in the larger political identification sense)....but the core rationale by the various authoritarians (whatever they identify as with other terminology) always seem to be the same, stemming from the authoritarian/totalitarian goal and thought process itself.

But its no coincidence the most developed and significant countries (as beset they are with the same intrinsic issues) of note today in truest sense.... are those that also have the broadest scope of free speech (and thus argument/debate) to flesh out those issues and afford the relevant release, churn and renewal rather than some ultimate zero-sum absolute (and ultimately facing dire, extreme, brutal consequence) from gambling the final fatigue tolerance of society to the pressured accumulations from authoritarianism.

Thus the larger allopathic truth for this condition seems to be quite obvious....even (in my opinion) a self evident and platonic, eternal one.

*seemingly....this is a long topic of its own