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Freedom of Speech in Pakistan

we should hate it because it was created by British?
Where did I say "we should hate"?

Punjab police was also created by British but no one loves it
Yes it was. So were most of the other institutions like courts, railways, mail, irrigation department, PWD, revenue service. However they were 'desified' by our rulers. The more desified they got, the more fcuked up they got. The army is least desified and if the British officers from the Raj era ever came back they would find it pretty similiar to how they left it.

The tussle between various civilian leaders and military has been because they intruded and tried to influence the runnings of the army. Unlike other services the army had the 'guns' to say "fcuk off".

Thus the military is the least Raj era institution to have got the desi treatment. And that is why it functions better then the rest.


*And don't forget the blueprint used in establishing these institutions was so successful that it built a empire across 3/4 of the globe.
 
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When the national ethos was built up there was little in the form of media and what there was only reflected narrow interests of the elite and you should know that. Mass media is recent phenomenon. And your now being obtuse because I know your not ignorant.

But how does does this predictable whataboutery apply to freedom of speech in Pakistan? Trying to establish a false equivalence based on contrived logic does nothing to help understand why it cannot be permitted in Pakistan on the claimed grounds of what happens elsewhere.

If we wish to declare equivalence over this issue, then why not look at demanding similar equivalences elsewhere, for example expense on social services compared to defense expenses, for example. But here, Pakistan's needs and situation suddenly become unique, don't they, and thus not comparable to what happens elsewhere in the world.

What gives?
 
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whataboutery
Any line of reasoning that does not agree with you get the charge of "whataboutery"?
demanding similar equivalences elsewhere, for example expense on social services compared to defense expenses
I am all for expenditure on social services, indeed I applaud PTI for having placed these on their agenda. And if you have read my thoughts on defence purchases I have always said they need pruning. No more tanks, no more warships [to defend on existen exports] etc/.
 
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I am all for expenditure on social services, indeed I applaud PTI for having placed these on their agenda. And if you have read my thoughts on defence purchases I have always said they need pruning. No more tanks, no more warships [to defend on existen exports] etc/.

Now we are getting somewhere. If you indeed support similar equivalences as above, then I can accept your approach. Fair is fair.
 
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Now we are getting somewhere. If you indeed support similar equivalences as above, then I can accept your approach. Fair is fair.
Equivalent? I have always said we don't need to re-invent the wheel. Just freakin copy the west. And give time. Problem sorted. Instead of trying to find desi solutions that are there because of failure of desi ideas. Just look at China, Japan, South Korea, Turkey. They copied and imprived.
 
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Equivalent? I have always said we don't need to re-invent the wheel. Just freakin copy the west. And give time. Problem sorted. Instead of trying to find desi solutions that are there because of failure of desi ideas. Just look at China, Japan, South Korea, Turkey. They copied and imprived.

So simple a solution, and yet so hard for Pakistan to emulate. Why is that we cannot do this copying as others have?
 
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So simple a solution, and yet so hard for Pakistan to emulate.
The solution is so simple and obvious that you wanna tear your hair out in frustration. It's like you can see tracks in the snow that others have trod and successfully got to the top. But we must insist on not following those because the said tracks were left by 'goras'. To do so would lead to charges of "westoxified".

Why is that we cannot do this copying as others have?
Simple. The desi's ideas failed long time ago. Their brankruptcy was made evident when the 'goras' came and fcuked us up in 1840s. Now there was two solutions to this.

  1. accept defeat. accept that desi ideas failed. adopt and learn from the goras who had fcuked us up. then improve on them. then fcuk them [goras] up like Japs, Chinese etc
  2. or refuse to accept defeat. refuse to accept desi ideas are recipe for failure and cause of our defeat. then do a ostrich. then cry for even more helpings of the failed desi recipe.
Sorry to say in Pakistan we went in for number 2. reasons are long and would require a long post. but I think you probably have some ideas. I would though say that use of religion and objectives resolution as tools of politics are the primary reason for this.
 
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I'll tell ya guys a secret...

pssst...there is no such thing as "freedom of speech" ANYWHERE!

just try & raise doubts about the haulacost in the middle of these "freedom of speech" champion countries like the u.s. or the u.k....you'll get a rude awakening that there is no such thing as freedom of speech SO FAST that it'll make your head spin!
 
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Anywhere, freedom of speech is selective. Just ignore the noise and do your thing. Screw what anyone else thinks.
 
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Simple. The desi's ideas failed long time ago. Their brankruptcy was made evident when the 'goras' came and fcuked us up in 1840s. Now there was two solutions to this.

  1. accept defeat. accept that desi ideas failed. adopt and learn from the goras who had fcuked us up. then improve on them. then fcuk them [goras] up like Japs, Chinese etc
  2. or refuse to accept defeat. refuse to accept desi ideas are recipe for failure and cause of our defeat. then do a ostrich. then cry for even more helpings of the failed desi recipe.
Sorry to say in Pakistan we went in for number 2. reasons are long and would require a long post. but I think you probably have some ideas. I would though say that use of religion and objectives resolution as tools of politics are the primary reason for this.

If the desi ideas you blame for our failure to emulate western success can endure for a century and a half, then some credit must be given to them for people believing in them still. May be Pakistan will yet chart its own course?
 
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What is constitution? a book written by politicians
Pakistanis don't care about this book and love army

You are symptom of a disease which has been spread by opinion-makers to serve interests of Martial-Law regimes.

Spreading of such thought occurs only when educated people knowingly & willfully sell their souls to serve unholy goals for personal favors & titles. Any opposition to such goals is termed treason, while in reality these are self-serving and not in national interest. The whole of Musharraf regime is a case in point.

Eh Pai je tuhadi national interest di maan pehn.

What safety do you have when 'they' come for you or your loved ones, and your connections refuse to help or would not pick up that panic phone call of yours? Don't tell me that nobody would mess with you because you are a patriotic & honorable person. That would be BS and ignorance. Perhaps you live in a good house that someone else lusts after? Perhaps someone fancies any of your female loved-ones? Perhaps you associate with someone or some cause that brings you unwanted attention? There could be a number of reasons, but the result could be that you get targeted.

True story: In 2011 I was flabbergasted at a police raid that happened at my home. My visiting US-based brother & I were picked up, blind-folded, & taken to a safe-house (Lawrence View hotel, actually - the then SHO Civil Lines Lahore was not very smart). Police had taken the precautionary measure of aerial firing before driving off from my home, just in case they had to kill either or both of us in a staged encounter later. I was deemed relatively harmless while my brother got a lot of attention & was seriously interrogated for a couple of hours. While this happened, my seriously ill father & one of my sisters who was also visiting from USA frantically tried to gather information, make sense of what was happening, & contact anybody who could help (a politician stepped in, the sort who could help write constitution). After a couple of hours of uncertainty, we were located at Civil Lines Police Station. By that time the SHO had realized what had happened. We had been framed by someone who wanted my brother dead & gone. The SHO had been told that a dangerous foreign-based target killer was in Lahore (my brother) and that he would get a lot of praise for apprehending a serial killer. The most dangerous moment was when the adventurous Sub Inspector (not in uniform, mind you) barged in to arrest my brother, who luckily did not reach out for his gun. Any move viewed as threatening could have resulted in death. The police would have easily given it any twist later. Note that there were no pending cases between us and anyone else. There was absolutely no reason for police to make the illegal raid. It was a matter of violation of our constitutional rights. The apology from SHO and Sub-Inspector did not make us feel any less violated. This could happen to anyone, even perhaps a security-obsessed keyboard warrior like you.

If you deconstruct the true narration that I have provided, you would realize that no connection, no phone call, no good intention, no title could have helped my middle class family. The crucial point that could have resulted in serious harm or even death occurred within a minute of the illegal raid. That fact that things did not escalate was fortuitous.

The lesson, and bottom-line is that those who view things from a security perspective and have no respect for Constitution & rights, must be made answerable. Power does not wish to be controlled. It must be made accountable and the accountability is only possible in a constitutional framework. I should mention here that as I sat in SHO's office and chatted as though nothing had happened, I was able to confirm that his mind-set (despite a Master's degree) was anti-constitution. He frankly said that in Muslim history the head of army made & ran the government. This is negation of all that under-writes & supports modern life. It meant that the people are subjects (slaves actually), & the sultan is above the law. What do you imagine I thought of all his education? The same as what I think of your education - incomplete & faulty (naqis aur ghair-mukammil).

You & I need protection of rights (life, liberty, property, expression, association, assembly, etc...) and Constitution guarantees those to us by ensuring the trichotomy of powers and accountability of executive branch of government. As far as I am concerned, people who scoff at Constitution are ill-read, ill-reared, & ill-intentioned fools, for only a fool would cut the branch that supports his / her weight.

In the end, the strength of a nation is in its institutions & productivity of its people. The only way to achieve this is to provide good education & invest in people's development via social investment. Education should teach the importance of institutions (In any US university taking political science course is mandatory). Social investment (health, vocational training, infrastructure) improves productivity. Instead of doing this sensibly, Pakistan invests in security and gets ill-educated freaks & insecurity as a result. You could actually make a state very strong, only to see the nation become weak.

Fin.
 
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If the desi ideas you blame for our failure to emulate western success can endure for a century and a half, then some credit must be given to them for people believing in them still.
Enduring foolishness is not a attribute but a bloody curse.

May be Pakistan will yet chart its own course?
Yes, it has since 1947. So has China. So has Somalia. So has Turkey. So has Niger. Look at them today.

Why are you and me sat in USA and UK respectively, including a large chunk of PDF. That is what "chart it's own course" got us.
 
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The lesson, and bottom-line is that those who view things from a security perspective and have no respect for Constitution & rights, must be made answerable. Power does not wish to be controlled. It must be made accountable and the accountability is only possible in a constitutional framework. I should mention here that as I sat in SHO's office and chatted as though nothing had happened, I was able to confirm that his mind-set (despite a Master's degree) was anti-constitution. He frankly said that in Muslim history the head of army made & ran the government. This is negation of all that under-writes & supports modern life. It meant that the people are subjects (slaves actually), & the sultan is above the law. What do you imagine I thought of all his education? The same as what I think of your education - incomplete & faulty (naqis aur ghair-mukammil).

It is great of you to think that way. The typical response to the incident you mentioned would have been to seek a bigger pawa to a more senior police officer and give the instigator a taste of his own medicine. A primitive society responds best to such primal ways. :D

Enduring foolishness is not a attribute but a bloody curse.

Endurance can be a virtue too. The idea of an Islamic wonderland has a certain charm to the believers that only grows stronger in Pakistan. Even PMIK, that great hope, believes in the Riasat-e-Medina.

Yes, it has since 1947. So has China. So has Somalia. So has Turkey. So has Niger. Look at them today.

Why are you and me sat in USA and UK respectively, including a large chunk of PDF. That is what "chart it's own course" got us.

I charted my own course. :D
 
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Even PMIK, that great hope, believes in the Riasat-e-Medina.
Yeh, I know. Every time he starts that he has me biting my lips. But then it makes me wonder if he believes in that or is that a way to be able to gain traction in the Pakistani environment. Saying education, cleanliness, looking after minorities while quoting Marx is not going to get you anywhere other then possibly get shot or blown away. So better to package the same product in the "Medina model".

Clever if you ask me. Our lot will lap it up ]the magic term being "Riasat-e-Medina] more then English footie supporters lap up pints after a game.Even more funny is seeing PMIK pull the rug right underneath the feet of the mullahs.
 
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Yeh, I know. Every time he starts that he has me biting my lips. But then it makes me wonder if he believes in that or is that a way to be able to gain traction in the Pakistani environment. Saying education, cleanliness, looking after minorities while quoting Marx is not going to get you anywhere other then possibly get shot or blown away. So better to package the same product in the "Medina model".

Clever if you ask me. Our lot will lap it up ]the magic term being "Riasat-e-Medina] more then English footie supporters lap up pints after a game.Even more funny is seeing PMIK pull the rug right underneath the feet of the mullahs.

Then why wonder why such failed ideas have such an enduring charm?! :D
 
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