France starts ban on full-face veil

[Contrarian]

Unhunh, the cartoonist should have just not done what he did because the ummah would get him, sure thing.

AND so Muslims killed him, I guess then everyone has the right to kill anyone who offends their precious religion, god or gods. Maybe some people take offense to being called a kaffir and will stab the guy who uses that word, or wait I may not like people calling themselves hinduwaadis and will go on a rampage. Well, your're welcome to that view, I'd rather have mine where I can criticize up to the point of offending. Shows exactly how mature and comfortable in their own religion's message a community is when its adherents can't even take an "insult" without shedding blood. Oh he insulted Goddess Sita, oh my- woe be me the world shall come down on our heads- KILL HIM! Pity.

Anyway the law of the land is the law of the land, at least France doesn't have the death punishment for wearing the niqab unlike in Pakistan where in dejure terms blasphemy is punishable by death- although I've heard its not often awarded and is replaced by imprisonment- that is if a mob doesn't get to the blasphemer first.

Well by Pakistan's legal standards I am a blasphemer and I am well off that way. I believe we have reached an impasse, so to each his/her own.

Brilliant post.

If Muslim standards were applied, the people of France have a right to kill anyone wearing a burka or veil. They have full rights to find these things blasphemous.

 

[Pboy]

You`re making it sound like there is some huge anti muslim/foreigners movement going on in Europe.

Yes we have radical nutheads who hates muslims or generally foreigners without a reason, BUT they`re not dominating- They are in minority.

There are few of them here. Denmark is a very open country, you can basically do whatever you want to any community and they will say that its freedom of speech.

 

[Dubious]

The meaning of these words change as per context. In Indian context, it means respect for all religions. It has actually now come to mean anyone who is anti BJP.

In the context of France, for historical reasons, they have a strong suspicion of overt display of religious symbols.

@Vinod2070 yes, that is what i mean... the words dont mean anything...the meanings are not consistent but dynamic....hence, for France.....it is just annoyed why more Muslims are covering up...

They are. Equal citizens.

Not more equal. They should adapt themselves to local culture and not expect the reverse from the host society.

what is the local culture? Define that....Anyway, it is in EU legislation that one has the freedom to practice religion and no one can stop them....that is secularism in a democratic country...When I entered EU, I was given a 5 hrs lecture on my rights and how if abused i can file a complaint...Wont be easy but it is possible...

Well, I think there are supposedly just 300 odd women who are impacted by this.

Why make it such a big issue? All that you mention can still be achieved by other means.

You would be surprised at the numbers...otherwise 300 in a country like France should not get the agenda to National level....

What the big issue is ....

Because in every debate the West is set as an example of Freedom....WE do not brag about freedom....so where there is freedom seems equal to Saudi ...meaning Saudi is actually applying Western freedom

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...arts-ban-full-face-veil-71.html#ixzz2PhORPRcg

 

[Contrarian]

@Dillinger kafir means a non believer only sumone who doesnt know would take offence

Yet, it is upto the people to decide what they take offence in or not.

A rational Muslim would find someone insulting Mohammad to be a fool and let it go. Most Muslims however would not and would try to kill him.

Similarly, a rational man might not find kafir offensive, but others might.

So if Muslim sensibilities are applied on other communities, they are also within full rights to kill anyone who uses the word kafir.

 

[Dillinger]

@Dillinger kafir means a non believer only sumone who doesnt know would take offence

I know that young one, nor is calling someone human an insult just as much as calling someone a non-believer is not an insult either. BUT, IF I were to declare a certain name here to have belonged to someone less than divine with human fallibility then I'd be swimming in a sea of insults. Leave it be.

 

[Slav Defence]

huh.. @Talon what else can be expected from france....these free minded people who conducted meeting in 17th century in which they discussed that are women considered as humans or not?
in france's society a divorced woman can't be respected!
france has worse reputation about women,so what the hell to be expected from them lol!

 

[Caucasian Albania]

well tbh wearing a full face veil is a bit strange. anyone could wear it and pretend they're a women and go around comiiting crime without allowing their face to be seen.

 

[Dubious]

Why do you bring this in? I'm not HRW, i dont care what they report. It a fallacy of an argument anyway.
You have been proven wrong in my previous posts. Government only takes the clothing freedom away when the person works for the government and leaves provisions for display of religious affection on a smaller scale. Other employers have clothing regulations as well. Stop trolling, please.

@Audio I am not trolling, I am merely pointing out the constitution and what France is doing is going against EU constitution and human rights where right to practice religion....I have said earlier I am not against the niqab ban, but I sure am against someone ordering me what to wear when EU constitution says the opposite!

 

[Cloakedvessel]

I was not making any comparison. you said ban on veil is must for communication and i just said that there is something called verbal communication

Read my post again. I never stated there should be a ban on the ground that is a hindrance in face to face communication.
In fact, I never said anything about a ban. Since you seem to think that finding a burqa highly undesirable on the basis that it severely restricts communication is, I should point out that this argument for me is, especially on itself, not substantial enough to justify a ban. Yes, I favor the ban, and I would base that fore-mostly on the aspects relating to security and identification. Regardless of the fact that placing the argument -of miscommunication and often no meaningful communication at all - in a broader context i.e social harmony in a multicultural and open society, would make it a very strong argument to justify a ban.

I was saying that communication can be done without body language or facial expression which no doubt are important when you have communication with someone close to you i.e your relative, friends etc but body language or face expression are less important when you deal or communicate with strangers

It's the other way around...... A face is much more than just speech.

Covering a face is a particularly effective means to segregate yourself outside the society. It is not only difficult for someone else to interpret what you say, if he can not see your face, the need to converse disappears.

In the Western world, good communication hinges on visual contact. Everything in our face communicates with other persons. Our eyes, our eyebrows, our mouth corners, all give out minimal signals. Which are picked up by our interlocutor, and in response gives his own signals.
This way our words are placed in context. Because how do you know if that sarcastic remark is a well-intended banter, an insult or even a flirt? The impression someone makes is a sum of signals.

Besides conveying emotions the face, and especially the look - eyes being a very powerful communication tool -has an important function in the regulation of contact.
Eye contact makes sure that we are not bumping to each other in a busy shopping street, and that we know that a gossip is well received or not. Almost imperceptibly we adjust our presentation to the reaction of the other person.

A look is also very compelling. Once you cross your eyes, it is very hard to go around that person.

Without the face it is very difficult to interpret the signals. It inevitably leads to miscommunication. You only understand a part of the message, because the rest is hidden behind a piece of fabric. Then you react too late and misinterpret, with the result that you prefer to avoid contact.

 

[Dubious]

well tbh wearing a full face veil is a bit strange. anyone could wear it and pretend they're a women and go around comiiting crime without allowing their face to be seen.

@Caucasian Albania I agree....But, if some want to wear it, should their freedom be suppressed ?

 

[Argus Panoptes]

@Audio I am not trolling, I am merely pointing out the constitution and what France is doing is going against EU constitution and human rights where right to practice religion....I have said earlier I am not against the niqab ban, but I sure am against someone ordering me what to wear when EU constitution says the opposite!

It is only a matter of time the legality of this French ban will be taken to the European Court, if that is the case. @Talon

 

[Dubious]

The West talks of freedom to choose the laws - democracy.
What the democracy delivers is upto them then. The west crows about giving voice to the people.

And France is a democracy. If the people of France - for whom the Government of France exists - want to say No to veils, then that is what will and should happen rightfully.

@Contrarian so the Muslims are not a people of France and hence their right should be ignored?

Brilliant post.

If Muslim standards were applied, the people of France have a right to kill anyone wearing a burka or veil. They have full rights to find these things blasphemous.

@Dillinger I will not be answering you because I have discussed this with you before so your post is repeated and a waste of my time....you can only get thanks and approvals from people like @Contrarian

You`re making it sound like there is some huge anti muslim/foreigners movement going on in Europe.

Yes we have radical nutheads who hates muslims or generally foreigners without a reason, BUT they`re not dominating- They are in minority.

There are few of them here. Denmark is a very open country, you can basically do whatever you want to any community and they will say that its freedom of speech.

@Pboy you would be surprised how many Asians think what the news shows is a representative of the whole of Europe... to some extent it is funny...

Yet, it is upto the people to decide what they take offence in or not.

A rational Muslim would find someone insulting Mohammad to be a fool and let it go. Most Muslims however would not and would try to kill him.

Similarly, a rational man might not find kafir offensive, but others might.

So if Muslim sensibilities are applied on other communities, they are also within full rights to kill anyone who uses the word kafir.

@Contrarian Well, making fun of someone's believe just shows how low one is... I already said I am not for what happened to him, but if one choose his own journey then he should meet with his own fate...

 

[Audio]

@Audio I am not trolling, I am merely pointing out the constitution and what France is doing is going against EU constitution and human rights where right to practice religion....I have said earlier I am not against the niqab ban, but I sure am against someone ordering me what to wear when EU constitution says the opposite!

Good luck telling your future employer you will be practicing religion in the workplace during working hours...in the private sector you would never get a job lol. It's just how things are. Society runs without much considerations for personal wishes of individuals. In the eyes of your employer, time for your prayer is money lost.

 

[Alpha1]

@Slav Defence A secular state is not supposed to interfere in religious matters of the people so why is france interfering..

 

[Dubious]

It is only a matter of time the legality of this French ban will be taken to the European Court, if that is the case. @Talon

@Argus Panoptes I doubt it...France is the least liked when it comes to laws....My previous boss was French....nice up tight lady...But I was surprised she told me that in France it is actually a law to be responsible for their own parents....something other Europeans do not apply...

Good luck telling your future employer you will be practicing religion in the workplace during working hours...in the private sector you would never get a job lol. It's just how things are. Society runs without much considerations for personal wishes of individuals. In the eyes of your employer, time for your prayer is money lost.

@Audio well, good luck to them to find my replacement